The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

1. Now this solution may not deliver that, but then again it may.

 

 

2. Super League will be a 12 team competition. At the end of the regular rounds there will then be "a longer playoff" series. The non-qualifiers of the SL Playoffs will then "drop" into their own playoffs involving the top Champ teams.

 

1. Indeed and I am not against it at all and it will be fascinating to see which way it goes if it comes in. Unless we try it and see, it will IMVHO remain in many people's minds the golden solution the game snatched away from the Championship clubs.

 

2. Well my worries are based on what you are saying in quotes above, given the "play off" crowds are proven to be below clubs average league crowds painfully poor, and "dropping" down a level decimates your crowds.

 

The golden solution "drops" clubs down and puts them in an "elongated play off" in a double whammy - just the kind of thing that has proven to create poor crowds..

[The Parksider]

£1m was quoted by our BOD at the last fans meeting.

 

Good luck to Fev, Leigh, Sheffield and Halifax finding that?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1. Indeed and I am not against it at all and it will be fascinating to see which way it goes if it comes in. Unless we try it and see, it will IMVHO remain in many people's minds the golden solution the game snatched away from the Championship clubs.

2. Well my worries are based on what you are saying in quotes above, given the "play off" crowds are proven to be below clubs average league crowds painfully poor, and "dropping" down a level decimates your crowds.

The golden solution "drops" clubs down and puts them in an "elongated play off" in a double whammy - just the kind of thing that has proven to create poor crowds..

Only because play offs aren't on the season ticket.

Under this structure they would most likely be (they're a guaranteed fixture after all).

[The Parksider]

The interest that the clubs you name should have is of a more vibrant competitive league that attracts more fans, sponsors and tv money. Super League will be a 12 team competition. At the end of the regular rounds there will then be a longer playoff series. The non-qualifiers of the SL Playoffs will then drop into their own playoffs involving the top Champ teams. This will be instead of their season just coming to an end.

 

There's not enough stats to work on but in 2006 Castleford averaged a crowd of 7,499 against the top eight in a 12 club Superleague inc. London and Salford. They averaged only 6,497 against their fellow bottom club strugglers Catalans, Wakefield and Huddersfield.

 

If they had played those games again and added games against top CC sides at the time - Halifax, Sheffield, Leigh and Widnes - which they DID DO the following season because they went down and scrapped with those clubs for promotion back into Superleague then the average comes out at 5,770.

 

There's an example of a club going down but successfully regaining their Superleague place. If anyone doesn't like the stats do your own, but the principle was then that if you get demoted and lose league fixtures against the top sides, but instead get league fixtures against Championship sides..............

 

Your crowds will go down. It doesn't even needs the stats to know that.  KPMG are a figures based outfit and I suggest they haven't done them. Castleford actually won all but one league game getting back to SL at first go so even on the field success could not replace all the lost fans.

 

If winners lose crowds "dropping down" then lord help the rest. RL fans don't like their clubs dropping down, RL fans don't like second tier stuff. Even the winners of the "Middle 8" face a drop in attendances on figures, logic and reason.

[Griff]

Only because play offs aren't on the season ticket.

Under this structure they would most likely be (they're a guaranteed fixture after all).

 

You can't say at the start of the season that they'll be guaranteed home fixtures.

[Griff]

Good luck to Fev, Leigh, Sheffield and Halifax finding that?

 

Feisal has money coming out of his ears.

[Griff]

1. Indeed and I am not against it at all and it will be fascinating to see which way it goes if it comes in. Unless we try it and see, it will IMVHO remain in many people's minds the golden solution the game snatched away from the Championship clubs.

 

 

Now there's the key point.  If we don't take on Twelves and Eights, folk will moan about it until we do.

[The Parksider]

 

 

I think people are over-stating the 3x8 thing.....

 

Let's look at Leigh. 2005 bottom four of Superleague with Salford, Wakefield and Widnes. Average SL crowd 4,750. Average league crowd against those three clubs they were trying to overtake to stay up was 4,289.

 

They went down, but stayed competitive and scrapped to return to superleague with HKR, Widnes, Whitehaven and Rochdale. They held second spot for most of the season.

 

Just add the league crowds they had over the period they were fighting to stay in SL and then fighting to get back, against those seven clubs who would have been their "Middle 8" and the average is 3,328.

 

KPMG appear to say that this middle 8 will bring the crowds in, the figures say otherwise.

 

What the figures say to me is the top 8 Superleague clubs is where the crowds will go right up. It's only my opinion and I respect others opinions but the choice is whether we believe that the top eight clubs are voting for this because it will be great for the game as a whole, OR whether it will be great for the top 8 clubs crowds???

 

Finally pushing clubs down a division historically does them a lot of damage. Anyone care to have a thought for the  Championship clubs already struggling badly who will be downgraded to third and fourth grade??

 

I'd guess not, not after 2761 posts of them being ignored.

Edited January 10, 2014 by The Parksider

[Ackroman]

You can't say at the start of the season that they'll be guaranteed home fixtures.

 

You can however be creative. I've said this before. Season tickets can be applied to the whole game, including the Challenge Cup, it just needs the clubs to let someone go away and draw up a proposal.

[Griff]

You can however be creative. I've said this before. Season tickets can be applied to the whole game, including the Challenge Cup, it just needs the clubs to let someone go away and draw up a proposal.

 

I agree there.  I came up with an idea which was roundly criticised.  Which is fair enough, BUT nobody's come up with anything else except that daft idea a few years ago, where your first Cup game was free.   It was along the right lines but someone had not followed through the financial implications of it - particularly for the Championship clubs, many of whom were denied their big annual payday.

[gingerjon]

You can however be creative. I've said this before. Season tickets can be applied to the whole game, including the Challenge Cup, it just needs the clubs to let someone go away and draw up a proposal.

 

We can't even sort a league out without a schism and a 150 page thread.

 

You think sorting out the play-off and Challenge Cup revenue sharing should be a doddle?

[Griff]

The interest that the clubs you name should have is of a more vibrant competitive league that attracts more fans, sponsors and tv money. Now this s

Super League will be a 12 team competition. At the end of the regular rounds there will then be a longer playoff series. The non-qualifiers of the SL Playoffs will then drop into their own playoffs involving the top Champ teams.

 

You know what, Dave ?  As an administrator, sometimes you're just happy for the season to end, so that you can start with a clean slate next year.

[yipyee]

1. Indeed and I am not against it at all and it will be fascinating to see which way it goes if it comes in. Unless we try it and see, it will IMVHO remain in many people's minds the golden solution the game snatched away from the Championship clubs.

2. Well my worries are based on what you are saying in quotes above, given the "play off" crowds are proven to be below clubs average league crowds painfully poor, and "dropping" down a level decimates your crowds.

The golden solution "drops" clubs down and puts them in an "elongated play off" in a double whammy - just the kind of thing that has proven to create poor crowds..

I hope my season ticket price is reduced!

[Griff]

We can't even sort a league out without a schism and a 150 page thread.

 

You think sorting out the play-off and Challenge Cup revenue sharing should be a doddle?

 

It is, pal.  We just need to start again instead of trying to adapt last year's ideas (well, ideas we've had for the last hundred years).

[The Parksider]

The interest that the clubs you name should have is of a more vibrant competitive league that attracts more fans, sponsors and tv money. Now this solution may not deliver that, but then again it may, if Warrington for example believe that this will give the game a shot in the arm, then that should have benefits to Warrington etc. too.

 

Last go now.

 

Warrington averaged 10,465 last year but if they had not played Salford and London and it had been a 12 clubs league they would have averaged 10,888.

 

Under 2x12 = 3x8 they would play the 11 and then play some top clubs again. That could have the effect of pushing the crowds to an average of 11,000.

 

13 games x 10,465 = 136,045 fans through the gate this year. 

 

Under the proposed 2x12=3x8 Warrington woould likely get 159,500 fans through the gate with more and better fixtures. Yes it will benefit Warrington at the expense of lower SL clubs.

 

I do think the figures say that what this is about is Superleague cutting to eight and letting the moaning minnies who find it too rich for them down gently.

 

All dressed up as "All for the good of the game" an attitude which after 120 years will be a massive sea change?

Edited January 10, 2014 by The Parksider

[Griff]

Agree with Parky.  Ultimately, the top eight get better fixtures and that's why it's of interest to them.

[gingerjon]

It is, pal.  We just need to start again instead of trying to adapt last year's ideas (well, ideas we've had for the last hundred years).

 

Can you sort out BARLA/RFL/NCL whilst you're at it?

[Griff]

Can you sort out BARLA/RFL/NCL whilst you're at it?

 

In what way ?

[gingerjon]

In what way ?

 

So that we all get along, everything's rosy and the game grows wealthier and more popular.

 

Reckon you could do it in an afternoon.

[Wanderer]

Let's look at Leigh. 2005 bottom four of Superleague with Salford, Wakefield and Widnes. Average SL crowd 4,750. Average league crowd against those three clubs they were trying to overtake to stay up was 4,289.

 

They went down, but stayed competitive and scrapped to return to superleague with HKR, Widnes, Whitehaven and Rochdale. They held second spot for most of the season.

 

Just add the league crowds they had over the period they were fighting to stay in SL and then fighting to get back, against those seven clubs who would have been their "Middle 8" and the average is 3,328.

 

KPMG appear to say that this middle 8 will bring the crowds in, the figures say otherwise.

 

What the figures say to me is the top 8 Superleague clubs is where the crowds will go right up. It's only my opinion and I respect others opinions but the choice is whether we believe that the top eight clubs are voting for this because it will be great for the game as a whole, OR whether it will be great for the top 8 clubs crowds???

 

Finally pushing clubs down a division historically does them a lot of damage. Anyone care to have a thought for the  Championship clubs already struggling badly who will be downgraded to third and fourth grade??

 

I'd guess not, not after 2761 posts of them being ignored.

 

This figure of 3328 (in an outdated facility) would probably represent nearly a 100% improvement in attendances for leigh compared to their 2013 CC average (don't have exact figure at my finger-tips) so I am sure they would be pleased if they got that again or even topped it

Edited January 10, 2014 by Wanderer

[Griff]

So that we all get along, everything's rosy and the game grows wealthier and more popular.

 

Reckon you could do it in an afternoon.

 

Yeah - I'd bang some heads together, which is what the game badly needs.  Whole afternoon not required.

 

Always somebody who wants to sneer, isn't there ?

 

The gate-sharing was easy to solve.  Go back to that time when everybody had a voucher for a cup tie.

 

Agree a value for the voucher - £10, whatever.

 

Crucially - include that in your season ticket price.

 

When the voucher's presented, that's worth a tenner in the gate share calculation.

 

It's also a tenner that the issuing club has already had.

 

What we shouldn't have done is let half the crowd in for nowt and then wonder how to pay the bills.

[Ponterover]

Agree with Parky.  Ultimately, the top eight get better fixtures and that's why it's of interest to them.

 

It's also why it's good for the game as a whole.

 

More top 8, high intensity games has got to benefit the national team(s).  I think we are all agreed that more and better international action is good for the game.

[Griff]

It's also why it's good for the game as a whole.

 

More top 8, high intensity games has got to benefit the national team(s).  I think we are all agreed that more and better international action is good for the game.

 

This is where we disagree.  It accentuates the split between the top eight and the rest, making it even harder to break into the real $uperleague, which is the top eight not the top twelve.

 

That's why it's bad for the game as a whole.

[Ponterover]

This is where we disagree.  It accentuates the split between the top eight and the rest, making it even harder to break into the real $uperleague, which is the top eight not the top twelve.

 

That's why it's bad for the game as a whole.

 

I get the top 8 is the real Super League, it's pretty clear there are 6 clubs in there that can't really hack it.

 

Question is, do we continue and have a bit of a shambolic competition, with regular administrations, or do we change it to allow those 6 (+2) to find a level that they can hack?

 

Do we want zombie clubs making up the numbers, or do we want a vibrant competition at all levels?

[gingerjon]

 

 

Agree a value for the voucher - £10, whatever.

 

Crucially - include that in your season ticket price.

 

London aren't having a season ticket next season.  If, in future, they still exist and are in partnership with Barnet they will never have a season ticket set up again.

 

Your plan has already failed.