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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Whatever happened to the lovely grounds that were promised in the Calder area? As part of the licensing at some point did both Cas and Wakey not promise new grounds? I could be wrong here, so please correct me if necessary!

 

The growth is very good, but looking at the dates, I have had a thought. Now this is just spit balling, so forgive me. In the mid-nineties, it seemed to became more acceptable for whole familes (and in particular girls) to support football. Looking at premier league average attendances (on worldfootball.net), they jumped by about 17% in the 95-96 season compared to the 94-95 season (by far the biggest change in average crowd during the PL era). Do we think something similar happened in SL? I note that from the last 'proper' winter season to the first SL season, we saw a 18% jump in attendances (from wiki and Parky's numbers). I'm sure that playing in summer had something to do with it, and it is likely just a coincidence, but they are pretty similar % increases.

Can't speak for Cas, but Wakey promised all sorts to get themselves accepted in SL in 1998.  As Stalin said "promises like pie crusts, are made to be broken."

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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We've had far too many threads locked or ruined by them being dragged wildly off-topic onto the nuts and bolts of promotion and relegation.  As a compromise, it may be best if we have an official thread where the specific topic is P&R.  More specifically, this is P&R between the three leagues of SL, CC and CC1 but we wouldn't get huffy if people were discussing promotion into CC1 from below and vice versa.

 

The same rules of the board apply.  If it gets insulting then hit the report button, don't reply yourself or you'll get caught in the moderation.

 

Also, please note that we will be deleting posts in other threads if they take a thread off-topic onto P&R.  If something in another thread makes you want to have a rant about P&R then bring it to this thread instead.

 

Have fun!

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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Has it been announced yet what the P&R will be between CC and CC1 going forward?

Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

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Has it been announced yet what the P&R will be between CC and CC1 going forward?

 

Yes, 2 up 2 down. Champions of CC1 promoted along with winners of play offs comprising 2nd to 5th place teams.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Yes, 2 up 2 down. Champions of CC1 promoted along with winners of play offs comprising 2nd to 5th place teams.

Excellent, thanks.

Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

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Yes, 2 up 2 down. Champions of CC1 promoted along with winners of play offs comprising 2nd to 5th place teams.

 

Although how the league itself will be structured hasn't yet been confirmed.

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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The growth is very good, but looking at the dates, I have had a thought. Now this is just spit balling, so forgive me. In the mid-nineties, it seemed to became more acceptable for whole familes (and in particular girls) to support football. Looking at premier league average attendances (on worldfootball.net), they jumped by about 17% in the 95-96 season compared to the 94-95 season (by far the biggest change in average crowd during the PL era). Do we think something similar happened in SL? I note that from the last 'proper' winter season to the first SL season, we saw a 18% jump in attendances (from wiki and Parky's numbers). I'm sure that playing in summer had something to do with it, and it is likely just a coincidence, but they are pretty similar % increases.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 95 Premier League season was the last which had 22 teams. In 1996 it was down to 20 teams, resulting in the increase in average attendance you point out.

Edited by Mr Wind Up
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I'm not sure there is anything to say about promotion and relegation until we see tangible effects in the years to come. We can pontificate, and I suspect many will, but the disappointment surrounding Broncos and Bradford should be put on hold until we see how things pan out under the new system.

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I've resurrected and pinned this thread (and merged even more recently opened threads with it) so people who want to do so can talk about promotion and relegation and the benefits or otherwise of league restructures to their hearts content without disrupting threads on unrelated topics with the same arguments that have been aired over and over and over again.

I'll bet that in another 40 pages, not one person involved will have changed their opinion on anything.

At least this way, people who are totally bored with the subject can hopefully avoid it and discuss other matters of interest, while moderators can avoid being accused of censoring or closing down debate.

.

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the P and R discussion has become pretty sterile as others have said. It was bound to resurrect itself considering we know who is definitely going down, and considering the significance to the game of the clubs who are going down.


The new system is here and we just need to concentrate on enjoying our footy, I've certainly enjoyed mine this season.


 


But who are the main contenders for promotion to SL? In many ways the promotion campaign is already underway.


What will they bring to the competition in the short medium and long term? Which one(s) have the potential to become a power in the sport and take the competition forward. We've lost a big club that has achieved glory and attracted 20,000+ attendances, and has had some of the major stars of the sport among its ranks. We've lost a club in the capital that has made an under recognised contribution to the growth of Rugby League. 


So what are we likely to gain from whoever might replace them?


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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I've changed my opinion. I used to think SL should be 10 teams, with a second division of 10 with 2 up 2 down.

 

This was based on historical "evidence" about P&R, which suggests to me that the divisional split was too low in the table.  This caused a lot the problems many detractors of the system like to point out. Basically the elite league wasn't really elite and the clubs gaining promotion were too far off the pace.

 

I then thought the 3 x 8 was a good development, again because of the historical evidence from the one divisional structure which showed clubs at this point in the table were more matched than a split in divisions would suggest. These same clubs would now have to earn the right to play the elite far more than when they earned direct P&R into a bulging top division.

 

So I like the 3x8 regardless of the money. RL has got 8 elite clubs, 8 clubs that could be and the rest that may be.

 

Actuals, Probables, and Possibles.

Edited by Ackroman
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I really can't see how DR can be used amicably in the new system. Would Hull want Jacob Miller and Ben Crookes aiding Doncaster's promotion push if they are lingering in spots 9-12. And if a team has DR for key games during the pre-split will they then have to scratch around for players in the second phase?

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Who are the main contenders for promotion to SL? In many ways the promotion campaign is already underway.

 

What will they bring to the competition in the short medium and long term? Which one(s) have the potential to become a power in the sport and take the competition forward and attractd 20,000+ attendances.

 

What are we likely to gain from whoever might replace them?

 

 

Bradford who will bring 20,000 attendances to Superleague again.

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Bradford who will bring 20,000 attendances to Superleague again.

one would hope so

lets hope it isn't at the expense of catalan

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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I've changed my opinion. I used to think SL should be 10 teams, with a second division of 10 with 2 up 2 down.

 

This was based on historical "evidence" about P&R, which suggests to me that the divisional split was too low in the table.  This caused a lot the problems many detractors of the system like to point out. Basically the elite league wasn't really elite and the clubs gaining promotion were too far off the pace.

 

I then thought the 3 x 8 was a good development, again because of the historical evidence from the one divisional structure which showed clubs at this point in the table were more matched than a split in divisions would suggest. These same clubs would now have to earn the right to play the elite far more than when they earned direct P&R into a bulging top division.

 

So I like the 3x8 regardless of the money. RL has got 8 elite clubs, 8 clubs that could be and the rest that may be.

 

Actuals, Probables, and Possibles.

 

I really like this post, shame we can't do straight one up and one down between the eights. The 2 x 12's bit would probably retain the "off the pace" element.

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 95 Premier League season was the last which had 22 teams. In 1996 it was down to 20 teams, resulting in the increase in average attendance you point out.

 

Good point! Only one of the four lowest supported teams went down in 94-95, but boro brought a lot of fans. Oh well!

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the P and R discussion has become pretty sterile as others have said. It was bound to resurrect itself considering we know who is definitely going down, and considering the significance to the game of the clubs who are going down.

The new system is here and we just need to concentrate on enjoying our footy, I've certainly enjoyed mine this season.

 

But who are the main contenders for promotion to SL? In many ways the promotion campaign is already underway.

What will they bring to the competition in the short medium and long term? Which one(s) have the potential to become a power in the sport and take the competition forward. We've lost a big club that has achieved glory and attracted 20,000+ attendances, and has had some of the major stars of the sport among its ranks. We've lost a club in the capital that has made an under recognised contribution to the growth of Rugby League. 

So what are we likely to gain from whoever might replace them?

 

 

The odds on favourite is that nobody will replace them. P&R is back in a fashion but its entirely possible that nobody will be promoted in the truest sense, merely some clubs regaining their starting position in SL for the following season.

 

The 4 SL clubs who go into the middle 8 aren't really relegated at that point, they've just not qualified for the SL top 8 play offs. No club is relegated until the outcome of the middle 8 is known. Its entirely possible, probably even likely, that each SL season will have the same 12 clubs starting it.

 

Therefore, it is totally meaningless to compare Bradford and London with Leigh and Featherstone as its highly likely that none of them will be in SL. It'd be a much more meaningful comparison to compare them to the 4 clubs who are the likeliest to occupy the bottom 4 SL places each season.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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The odds on favourite is that nobody will replace them. P&R is back in a fashion but its entirely possible that nobody will be promoted in the truest sense, merely some clubs regaining their starting position in SL for the following season.

 

The 4 SL clubs who go into the middle 8 aren't really relegated at that point, they've just not qualified for the SL top 8 play offs. No club is relegated until the outcome of the middle 8 is known. Its entirely possible, probably even likely, that each SL season will have the same 12 clubs starting it.

 

Therefore, it is totally meaningless to compare Bradford and London with Leigh and Featherstone as its highly likely that none of them will be in SL. It'd be a much more meaningful comparison to compare them to the 4 clubs who are the likeliest to occupy the bottom 4 SL places each season.

thanks mate

 

FFS(edit, not aimed sat you)

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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I've resurrected and pinned this thread (and merged even more recently opened threads with it) so people who want to do so can talk about promotion and relegation and the benefits or otherwise of league restructures to their hearts content without disrupting threads on unrelated topics with the same arguments that have been aired over and over and over again.

I'll bet that in another 40 pages, not one person involved will have changed their opinion on anything.

At least this way, people who are totally bored with the subject can hopefully avoid it and discuss other matters of interest, while moderators can avoid being accused of censoring or closing down debate.

fantastic archive material

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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Comparing averages at the top end is certainly one way of assessing different era,s.But I also remember this period and indeed the eighties for good crowds at Challenge cup games,crowds of over 1000 at second team games and 2000 at Yorkshire cup finals (amateur).

The average fan these days seems to buy a SL season ticket and attend few other games.

Excellent point.

 

If we take Parksider's comparative attendance stats above at face value, they don't include the loss of support for cup games.

 

For example, if we compare Parksider's best season of the 1st.Division during the 14 club 1991/92 season with his best season of Super League during the 14 club 2012 season, how do attendances at the cup games compare?

 

Back in 1991/92 season, there was also the County Cup competitions and the Regal Trophy to consider. These are all games which have been lost along with their walk-up attendances. For example, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Lancashire Cup in 1991/92 was 30,171, for the Regal Trophy it was 20,356, for the Challenge Cup it was 66,954 (and for the Premiership Trophy it was 30,808 for a grand total of 148,289. In 2012, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Challenge Cup was 34,004 and 15,467 for a grand total of 49,471. That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan.. 

 

Club - 1991/92 - 2012 - (Loss)  

Wigan - 148,289 - 49,471 - (98,818)

St Helens - 120,397 - 26,569 - (93,828)

Leeds - 104,314 - 48,638 - (55,676)

Castleford - 95,155 - 8,130 - (87,025)

Widnes - 65,853 - 9,949 - (55,904)

Bradford - 62,887 - 2,959 - (59,928)

Hull - 51,750 - 28,273 - (23,477)

Warrington - 46,993 - 43,825 - (3,168)

Salford - 35,833 - 6,004 - (29,829)

Wakefield - 33,936 - 10,143 - (23,793)

Hull KR -17,401 - 14,206 - (3,195)

 

It's also worth noting that Featherstone and Halifax who were both in the First Division in 1991/92 accumulated the following attendances for cup games that year...

 

Featherstone - 53,051

Halifax - 47,012

 

Those attendances for cup games back in 1991/92 were primarily walk-up attendances where people paid at the turnstiles and some of them were excellent attendances. 

 

Like you say, today's fans purchase a heavily discounted season ticket for Super League and that's pretty much it, unless their club reaches the final of the Challenge Cup or the Grand Final. 

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Excellent point.

 

If we take Parksider's comparative attendance stats above at face value, they don't include the loss of support for cup games.

 

For example, if we compare Parksider's best season of the 1st.Division during the 14 club 1991/92 season with his best season of Super League during the 14 club 2012 season, how do attendances at the cup games compare?

 

Back in 1991/92 season, there was also the County Cup competitions and the Regal Trophy to consider. These are all games which have been lost along with their walk-up attendances. For example, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Lancashire Cup in 1991/92 was 30,171, for the Regal Trophy it was 20,356, for the Challenge Cup it was 66,954 (and for the Premiership Trophy it was 30,808 for a grand total of 148,289. In 2012, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Challenge Cup was 34,004 and 15,467 for a grand total of 49,471. That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan.. 

 

Club - 1991/92 - 2012 - (Loss)  

Wigan - 148,289 - 49,471 - (98,818)

St Helens - 120,397 - 26,569 - (93,828)

Leeds - 104,314 - 48,638 - (55,676)

Castleford - 95,155 - 8,130 - (87,025)

Widnes - 65,853 - 9,949 - (55,904)

Bradford - 62,887 - 2,959 - (59,928)

Hull - 51,750 - 28,273 - (23,477)

Warrington - 46,993 - 43,825 - (3,168)

Salford - 35,833 - 6,004 - (29,829)

Wakefield - 33,936 - 10,143 - (23,793)

Hull KR -17,401 - 14,206 - (3,195)

 

It's also worth noting that Featherstone and Halifax who were both in the First Division in 1991/92 accumulated the following attendances for cup games that year...

 

Featherstone - 53,051

Halifax - 47,012

 

Those attendances for cup games back in 1991/92 were primarily walk-up attendances where people paid at the turnstiles and some of them were excellent attendances. 

 

Like you say, today's fans purchase a heavily discounted season ticket for Super League and that's pretty much it, unless their club reaches the final of the Challenge Cup or the Grand Final. 

 

 

 That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan..   Or rather, a loss of gross revenue from the sale of tickets.  I wonder how that translated into net revenue...given the poor financial state of most clubs at the time, maybe they we e just incurring more losses.

 

Might be interesting to look at clubs net revenues in those "golden" days compared with now.

The problem with being punctual is that there is no one there to appreciate it.

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