Canadian team apply to join Championship 1 (merged threads)

[thundergaz]

I think being desperate to see expansion is a good thing. Our lack of such desperation over the last century or so has been ruinous.

But that isn't what is happening here. All that is happening and I find it rather refreshing, is that people are looking at something can be made to work, what the good things about it are how feasible it is rather than why it's unfair, or pie in the sky or whatever. Well some people are doing that, some aren't.

Theirs a fine line between desperation and stupidity though angelo. Like I've said I'm all for expansion if its done properly ( which isn't the case ever since we went down this path). Throwing teams in and hoping it works isn't the way to go. We need to start going through expansion clubs with a fine tooth comb to give it any chance of working. Expansion as failed miserably because of this IMO. The Catalans IMO are a massive fluke as they were just thrown in just like Gateshead PSG crusaders etc etc but with catalans it worked which with the rest it didn't. By all means expansion is great for our sport but it needs to be done properly not just throw the clubs in and prey it works.

[GeordieGiant]

ridiculous thundergaz, Catalan worked because they had a base sructure of a strong domestic comp, well-run and efficent production lines of young talent from community clubs. Thunder nor PSG had those structures in place

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Theirs a fine line between desperation and stupidity though angelo. Like I've said I'm all for expansion if its done properly ( which isn't the case ever since we went down this path). Throwing teams in and hoping it works isn't the way to go. We need to start going through expansion clubs with a fine tooth comb to give it any chance of working. Expansion as failed miserably because of this IMO. The Catalans IMO are a massive fluke as they were just thrown in just like Gateshead PSG crusaders etc etc but with catalans it worked which with the rest it didn't. By all means expansion is great for our sport but it needs to be done properly not just throw the clubs in and prey it works.

Catalans were just thrown in? So there wasn't a bidding process 4 years before their entry, and they didn't have years to prepare? There was no plan? Hmmm...

Catalans worked because they WEREN'T just thrown in. There was a long term plan. One that has never been replicated for some reason!

[thundergaz]

ridiculous thundergaz, Catalan worked because they had a base sructure of a strong domestic comp, well-run and efficent production lines of young talent from community clubs. Thunder nor PSG had those structures in place

So what does that say about the RFL and the failed expansion clubs then if Catalans had all this in place? So the rest were just thrown in then like I said? So if Catalans worked like you say why haven't the rest if the RFL did the same process for every expansion club?

[thundergaz]

Catalans were just thrown in? So there wasn't a bidding process 4 years before their entry, and they didn't have years to prepare? There was no plan? Hmmm...

Catalans worked because they WEREN'T just thrown in. There was a long term plan. One that has never been replicated for some reason!

Thank you for that I didn't know that. But it makes you wonder why the RFL haven't followed these steps with the other expansion clubs because the Catalans are a breath of fresh air when it comes to expanding the game.

[Northern Sol]

none of them

Union is ambitious and adventurous.

The point was that we aren't.

 

There's irony in there somewhere.

"Ambitious" but "sensible" and there is the difference.

 

Here's a question: which semi-pro league* has a team from another continent playing in it? 

 

* from any sport

 

Turkey and Egypt don't count

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Totally pathetic. Why should the people working hard to expand the game be ashamed just because they didn't do it sooner? It seems you don't value sustainable expansion just nonsensical overambitious ideas doomed to failure

I didn't say that

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Theirs a fine line between desperation and stupidity though angelo. Like I've said I'm all for expansion if its done properly ( which isn't the case ever since we went down this path). Throwing teams in and hoping it works isn't the way to go. We need to start going through expansion clubs with a fine tooth comb to give it any chance of working. Expansion as failed miserably because of this IMO. The Catalans IMO are a massive fluke as they were just thrown in just like Gateshead PSG crusaders etc etc but with catalans it worked which with the rest it didn't. By all means expansion is great for our sport but it needs to be done properly not just throw the clubs in and prey it works.

I know there's a fine line.

Catalans are not a massive fluke.

 

the point about this canada business as far as this thread goes is that for once people have discussed it from the point of view it can succeed.

I'm sure there isn't a person on here who isn't aware of the many reasons why it can't. It's been a nice change, on the whole anyway.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

"Ambitious" but "sensible" and there is the difference.

 

Here's a question: which semi-pro league* has a team from another continent playing in it? 

 

* from any sport

 

Turkey and Egypt don't count

so you can only do something if somebody is already doing it.

[Bearman]

Someone wants to throw money at the game including £200K sponsorship.

But do we want it?

No 'cos it'll be in foreign dollars and somebody will have to take it to the bank to change it and that means someone will have to leave work. Is it worth the bother when Fred's butchers will give us a grand AND he'll bring it round ( and that means he'll bring some sausages and black pudding- happy days)

Just 'cos they've got a bit of money to throw around they think they should disrupt a weekend every year. Let them spend it in their own backyard.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Someone wants to throw money at the game including £200K sponsorship.

But do we want it?

No 'cos it'll be in foreign dollars and somebody will have to take it to the bank to change it and that means someone will have to leave work. Is it worth the bother when Fred's butchers will give us a grand AND he'll bring it round ( and that means he'll bring some sausages and black pudding- happy days)

Just 'cos they've got a bit of money to throw around they think they should disrupt a weekend every year. Let them spend it in their own backyard.

and don't forget that Fred always puts a few quid over the bar for the lads.

[Northern Sol]

Someone wants to throw money at the game including £200K sponsorship.

But do we want it?

No 'cos it'll be in foreign dollars and somebody will have to take it to the bank to change it and that means someone will have to leave work. Is it worth the bother when Fred's butchers will give us a grand AND he'll bring it round ( and that means he'll bring some sausages and black pudding- happy days)

Just 'cos they've got a bit of money to throw around they think they should disrupt a weekend every year. Let them spend it in their own backyard.

Hardly just a weekend. How long do you think it takes to adjust to the new timezone?

[Northern Sol]

You miss the point entirely.

part time players went to the other side of the world to play extensive tours. 

They had jobs. R Evans made the point that current part time players can't do this because they have jobs. It was possible for the biggest part of rugby league history for players to do this now all of a sudden it isn't. I don't think anyone has suggested that players should offer their services for free.

I don't miss the point at all. The point is that the two aren't comparable.

 

When players went on tour, a lot were not able to tour. That was unfortunate but since they had an entire nation to pick players from, they could find enough players that could tour. It's quite the same if you only have a squad of 30, many of whom may be injured.

 

It's also true that representing your country was the ultimate honour and many people were prepared to make huge sacrifices. I don't really think it reasonable to ask the same sacrifices of someone playing KPC1.

 

Players on tour were also paid for their time, they didn't get fobbed off with a free trip and think themselves lucky - that was rugby union.

 

The nature of work has also changed hugely. It may have been fairly easy to get time off from manual work which tended to be fairly casual and in the early days unemployment was pretty low by modern standards so it wasn't too difficult to get another job.

[zorquif]

Hardly just a weekend. How long do you think it takes to adjust to the new timezone?

 

Why bother adjusting? If the Canadians are happy for it, why not play at a time that a UK team would play (more or less)? Toronto are 6 hours behind - so, 1pm kick off would only be like playing at 7pm in the UK.

[Northern Sol]

so you can only do something if somebody is already doing it.

No, but if nobody else is doing it then it begs the question whether it is possible at all.

[Northern Sol]

Why bother adjusting? If the Canadians are happy for it, why not play at a time that a UK team would play (more or less)? Toronto are 6 hours behind - so, 1pm kick off would only be like playing at 7pm in the UK.

It still leaves the problem of stepping off a plane after 11 hours of travel (plus all the time getting to and from the airport) and trying to get some rest before playing a game.

[Northern Sol]

I didn't say that

No, but it is the logic of what you are saying. KPC1 has more expansion clubs than heartlands clubs. They'll be the ones paying the price*.

 

If you want expansion and really mean it then it is fair to say that asking the opinions of expansion clubs about this kind of venture is fair and reasonable. So far I've seen nothing that would suggest that so-called expansionists think that this matters.

 

* actually they won't because this will never get off the ground

[Northern Sol]

So what does that say about the RFL and the failed expansion clubs then if Catalans had all this in place? So the rest were just thrown in then like I said? So if Catalans worked like you say why haven't the rest if the RFL did the same process for every expansion club?

Because there is a culture of blaming flatc@aps who want only pit villages to play RL when difficult questions are asked like "Where is the business plan?".

 

Some people actually prefer glorious failure.

[Hornetto]

I think this is an exciting idea. I work with a Canadian - she says you can hit Toronto in 7 hours. Takes longer to get from South wales to gateshead!

[Northern Sol]

I think this is an exciting idea. I work with a Canadian - she says you can hit Toronto in 7 hours. Takes longer to get from South wales to gateshead!

She's wrong. It is an 11 hour flight and 8 hours back. That plus getting to / from the airport plus associated mucking about means that it is about 24 hours of travelling there and back.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

No, but it is the logic of what you are saying. KPC1 has more expansion clubs than heartlands clubs. They'll be the ones paying the price*.

 

If you want expansion and really mean it then it is fair to say that asking the opinions of expansion clubs about this kind of venture is fair and reasonable. So far I've seen nothing that would suggest that so-called expansionists think that this matters.

 

* actually they won't because this will never get off the ground

the fact that we have only just reached this stage in the development of the sport after all this time is not the fault of those who have through hard work and vision made it come to pass. That we have these clubs after all this time, and after a century of 'therduntwannernaw' is something for them to be proud of, not those who have whinged, complained, sneered, resisted and denounced this progress and there have been plenty of those through history and in the present day.

 

It might 'never get off the ground', I've said as much more than once. But just for a change: people, some people, have been talking about how it can.

[Northern Sol]

the fact that we have only just reached this stage in the development of the sport after all this time is not the fault of those who have through hard work and vision made it come to pass. That we have these clubs after all this time, and after a century of 'therduntwannernaw' is something for them to be proud of, not those who have whinged, complained, sneered, resisted and denounced this progress and there have been plenty of those through history and in the present day.

 

It might 'never get off the ground', I've said as much more than once. But just for a change: people, some people, have been talking about how it can.

I'd imagine that we have over a hundred years of people denouncing any kind of sensible planning as "flatcapperism".

 

That we have these clubs is down to hard work but also sensible planning; setting realistic targets. This is not realistic and would do great damage to expansion.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Because there is a culture of blaming flatc@aps who want only pit villages to play RL when difficult questions are asked like "Where is the business plan?".

 

Some people actually prefer glorious failure.

there certainly is such a culture, but it swings into action long before business plans are invoked: it's usually when there is a sniff of self interest being affected, or when it's anything new being proposed-moving the cup final to Wembley was only narrowly voted in.

 

As for glorious failure. Nobody wants to fail gloriously or otherwise. But personally I'd rather give something a crack rather than sit on my hands and blame others for the inertia that results.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'd imagine that we have over a hundred years of people denouncing any kind of sensible planning as "flatcapperism".

 

That we have these clubs is down to hard work but also sensible planning; setting realistic targets. This is not realistic and would do great damage to expansion.

and generally speaking the 'flat cappers' have won, or gone down squealing.

looking down the history of the sport when have any 'targets' been set of any kind? 

[Northern Sol]

there certainly is such a culture, but it swings into action long before business plans are invoked: it's usually when there is a sniff of self interest being affected, or when it's anything new being proposed-moving the cup final to Wembley was only narrowly voted in.

 

As for glorious failure. Nobody wants to fail gloriously or otherwise. But personally I'd rather give something a crack rather than sit on my hands and blame others for the inertia that results.

We are expanding the game, it's not a case of sitting on our hands. We have just had five or six new expansion sides in KPC1 in the last 5 years or so. More are probably in the pipeline. But hey let's just gamble all that on a "big idea".