Canadian team apply to join Championship 1 (merged threads)

[thundergaz]

"Expansion has failed big time" ..... Yes you are right it has in the UK but the best example of expansion succeeding in RL is that of Melbourne Storm. Their success has been built on the extra millions from News Corp ... Millions that they get each year that other NRL clubs do not get. And just like you somevNRL supporters still disagree with this. But thank god the Aussie Administrators knew that for the Storm to be competitive in a non RL environment they needed additional help to survive and thrive and the Storm have brought added value to the comp.

Imagine this scenario ....

Canadian RFL 'Hello Mr Thundergaz. I believe you are a supporter of Rugby League. What do you think of our proposal'

Mr Thundergaz 'Stuff your proposal. I don't care that you want to grow your club, or sponsor Championship One, or let teams earn some money or pay for UK teams to travel to Canada. How dare you ask for addional money above the cap just because you are a new start up and have to travel thousands of miles for an away game? Away with your new investors. Do you know that teams like Barrow, Rochdale, Keighley, York .... Grand old teams with a hundred years of history have the local local butcher as sponsor. If its good enough for them it should be bloody good enough for you!'

As a sport we have had 120 to get it right and failed miserably following the same old rules, the same old short sightedness, providing the same old outcome ...... sigh.

P.S. Apologies to fans of Barrow, Rochdale, Keighley and York and to all local butchers that put money into clubs. I just used your names for effect.

I've said repeatedly I'm all for expansion if its done properly. What I mean by that is do proper background checks on finances, crowd potential etc etc before throwing good money at a bad idea. IMO expansion as failed because of things like this. The RFL get a team who want to join our leagues and just throw them in and hope it works without going through the clubs with a fine tooth comb. Time after time expansion as failed barring one miracle which is catalans and I personally think that's been a fluke as I'm confident they were just thrown in too but catalans actually made it work where the rest couldn't for one reason or another. I would be over the moon if we had 2 leagues of 24 where all the clubs were from different parts of the uk but until expansion is done properly more will fail miserably Probably another 50 teams before we get another catalan unless its done properly.

[MustardBoy]

French RL fans I talk to seem to be of the opinion that RL would have just about died by now in France without Catalan's entry into SL - the steady decline in numbers of clubs has stopped for one thing.

 

Australia RU (a smaller sport than British RL in terms of attendances, tv deals, playing numbers etc) manages to have teams in a league where some teams are 14+ hours flight away. South Africa  and soon Argentina, (both much poorer countries than the UK) cope with teams competing in the same league.

 

Having a Canadian league requires that you are able to replicate what's in Toronto in a few other cities and doesn't significantly ease the logistics. Probably takes a lot more money to set up a 6 team national league than to have one club crossing the atlantic every weekend? There's not a huge amount in it travel-time wise between a 5 hour flight to Vancouver or 7 hour flight to London? While I agree that playing some big games there might be a good move, it's surely for the locals with the money to judge that? Toronto vs teams from London, Manchester, Newcastle, Wales or Coventry sounds like an easier sell to local sports fans than St. Helens vs Wigan or any 2 other places they've never heard of.

 

Err, what makes you think people in Canada have heard of Coventry, Newcastle or even Wales? What's your point, as there's no teams of significance from those places, or even London! You're almost suggesting we start a whole franchise up in Canada, where the people will have zero knowledge or interest, and that our provincial teams won't be glamorous enough for their big city franchise mentality anyway. Absolute madness!

 

Also, you can't compare flying from Toronto to Vancouver as the same as travelling from Toronto to London. The taxes and other things make it a whole lot cheaper to travel within domestic Canada. Also, if it's to spread the word in Canada, what's the use of just one club based in the East? Will this be a Canadian club keeping their foot in the door of an English league, whilst starting their own up? If anything, why don't they arrange something with US teams/cities like in other NA sports, why one team in a league on another continent?

 

Bad idea all round, completely ridiculous. It's like us starting a minor league baseball team in Manchester to get a slice of NA baseball cash, by using our selling point of having access to Old Trafford, along with the fact we're mad on spectator sports and that we love cricket. Completely stupid.

 

We need to get this region in order first before we start becoming a World league.

[JonM]

Err, what makes you think people in Canada have heard of Coventry, Newcastle or even Wales? What's your point, as there's no teams of significance from those places, or even London!

 

Err, they're proposing putting a team in Championship 1. Which has teams from London, Manchester, Newcastle, Wales & Coventry in it. IME, Canadians are quite likely to have heard of some or all of those places.

[Rascal Bongo Stork]

couple of people on here still making allusions to it costing 'us' money. "Throwing money at" "getting a slice of cash"...... knocking something you obviously haven't even properly read the proposal of.

As for needing to get this region sorted first.......that argument is basically - so what if you think you can be successful, we're not going to let you in because we dont think we're successful ourselves. Until Oldham,Swinton et al arent dying on their backsides then there can be no expansion?

Again.....this is a non cost to English RL attempt to expand the sport. I suspect you're the same grumblers stood on the northern terraces moaning about playing "bloody Hemel"

[brooza]

Err, they're proposing putting a team in Championship 1. Which has teams from London, Manchester, Newcastle, Wales & Coventry in it. IME, Canadians are quite likely to have heard of some or all of those places.

Even if they haven't, they will have heard of one team that's playing: Toronto.

 

Whilst I like watching games as a neutral, I prefer watching games involving my own club

[Northern Sol]

Err, they're proposing putting a team in Championship 1. Which has teams from London, Manchester, Newcastle, Wales & Coventry in it. IME, Canadians are quite likely to have heard of some or all of those places.

Swinton isn't quite Manchester and there is no way that a Canadian is going to know that it is near Manchester anyway. Gateshead isn't Newcastle and again a Canadian is unlikely to have heard of it. I'm not sure that Coventry is really seen as a big deal over there either.

[gingerjon]

Swinton isn't quite Manchester and there is no way that a Canadian is going to know that it is near Manchester anyway. Gateshead isn't Newcastle and again a Canadian is unlikely to have heard of it. I'm not sure that Coventry is really seen as a big deal over there either.

 

I'm sure the only reason the NFL is successful is because the world knows the exact locations of Green Bay, Jacksonville and Buffalo.

[Northern Sol]

I'm sure the only reason the NFL is successful is because the world knows the exact locations of Green Bay, Jacksonville and Buffalo.

But those teams are the exception. People certainly do know where New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Dallas, Miami etc are.

[gingerjon]

But those teams are the exception. People certainly do know where New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Dallas, Miami etc are.

 

Yes.  They are in America.

 

Knowing where they are isn't really a big deal though.

 

Like you, I don't think this will happen.  But the reason it won't happen isn't because Gateshead isn't well known enough.

[Northern Sol]

Yes.  They are in America.

 

Knowing where they are isn't really a big deal though.

 

Like you, I don't think this will happen.  But the reason it won't happen isn't because Gateshead isn't well known enough.

It's not just knowing where they are. It's about having an opinion about the place when you have never been there.

 

I've never been to NY but I can sort of imagine what it is like. Ditto Miami, Dallas, San Francisco, Chicago. These places are in films and on the telly.

 

To a Canadian the league consists of London (fair enough), a couple of Welsh sides and some places they've either vaguely or never heard of and don't care about.

 

It won't happen and it wouldn't happen even if Championship 1 was full of sides with names like Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol, Newcastle etc. But it is true that to the one Torontonian in a thousand that would ever hear about Toronto Travellers the latter league would have more appeal. For very small values of appeal.

[stewpot01]

Was the game in any better financial shape when Catalans and all the new CC1 clubs joined.? Should we tell Toulouse to stop bothering us because of the finances being in bad shape ? Should we tell Coventry not to proceed for next season as the finances are poor ?

This particular proposal seems to be pretty much self financing if they are giving us genuine information and have their ducks in a row.

 

You really do talk a load of tripe. The game WAS better off, we did not have the financial mess that some clubs (and probably some that don't let on they are struggling) but if you don't mind this idea more than likely going belly up within a couple of years and the rest of the RL family left to pick up the pieces then you are welcome to it.

There is precious little to hang on to in our game and I don't want it going te same way as football which if we keep getting these stupid ideas we will.

 

On the point of Catalans, THAT particular area had some substance and history in the game. Until the Canadians can prove they can establish both the fanbase and a healthy infrastructure then I would not touch them with a ten foot pole. I would sooner se the likes of Coventry, Oxford, Gloucester and Hemel thrive than see this what I think is a ridiculous idea be given any consideration without guarantees that the Canadians could hold a sustainable foothold in the league for at least 10 years without commiting financial suicide. Futhermore, WHO finances the clubs / supporters trips out there, it could even end up, including cups, playing them twice away in a week. The whole idea is preposterous whimsy.

[brooza]

I'm sure the only reason the NFL is successful is because the world knows the exact locations of Green Bay, Jacksonville and Buffalo.

I only know where Jacksonville is because of the Axemen!

[brooza]

You really do talk a load of tripe. The game WAS better off, we did not have the financial mess that some clubs (and probably some that don't let on they are struggling) but if you don't mind this idea more than likely going belly up within a couple of years and the rest of the RL family left to pick up the pieces then you are welcome to it.

There is precious little to hang on to in our game and I don't want it going te same way as football which if we keep getting these stupid ideas we will.

 

On the point of Catalans, THAT particular area had some substance and history in the game. Until the Canadians can prove they can establish both the fanbase and a healthy infrastructure then I would not touch them with a ten foot pole. I would sooner se the likes of Coventry, Oxford, Gloucester and Hemel thrive than see this what I think is a ridiculous idea be given any consideration without guarantees that the Canadians could hold a sustainable foothold in the league for at least 10 years without commiting financial suicide. Futhermore, WHO finances the clubs / supporters trips out there, it could even end up, including cups, playing them twice away in a week. The whole idea is preposterous whimsy.

What pieces will there be? They've said they are willing to finance the teams travelling to them. There may be room on the plane for supporters, there may not be. It could be that it's just an away match that you'll have to miss.

[willy]

Good god, someone comes along and wants to front up £200k, fly players across the Atlantic and has the aspiration to aim for superleague.

 

Let them, they put up a bond, they stay one season, it doesn't work, but it generates a lot of publicity and they get some serious club action going in Canada.

 

It works, then watch Superleague tremble with anticipation and the dollar signs whizz around the globe! Catalans and Toulouse have a ready made supporter base out there, they could even base a few games in French Canada.

 

No one seems to be asking anyone to go bust over this, its a no brainer, I would be very interested to see what the Canucks think they will get out of this and if I was the RFL the only question I would have is can they afford to back the promises up with cold hard cash!

 

If Toronto make a go of it, Jacksonville (more likely a team close to the Canadian border) fronts up for the USA. Stimulates North American growth. In an area of the world that seems to be having an economic resurgence!

 

And its home grown not forced growth. Great athletes as well, hockey players/baseball/basket ball/Canadian NFL players, all there for the taking.

 

Shall we all try and see this as a positive for once? Wait and see what the RFL have to say about the deal, if its a runner great.

 

Wont be this year, the fixtures are out this weekend, so the negatives can breath easy for a year.

[Phil]

"Hey guys, we've fallen in love with your game Rugby League and we'd love to enter your comp"

 

 

"Tough, off you can't "

 

 

Nice one flat cappers.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

"Hey guys, we've fallen in love with your game Rugby League and we'd love to enter your comp"

 

 

"Tough, ###### off you can't "

 

 

Nice one flat cappers.

it's traditional you know

[bowes]

Totally ludicrous idea from start to finish. League 1 should look to expand but to places like Bristol, Medway and the East Midlands. The equivalent level soccer leagues to League 1 wouldn't even be England wide so transcontinental part time leagues are a nonsense. That some people even consider shows how strange the mentality of some in the game is when nonsense like this pops up all the time and never materialises

[thundergaz]

"Hey guys, we've fallen in love with your game Rugby League and we'd love to enter your comp"

"Tough, ###### off you can't "

Nice one flat cappers.

Lol like it. The RFL should start taking notice of you and say stuff like this in cases like keighleys at the moment and other stuff involving our sport instead of dragging things out and making a right balls of things lol.Before anyone jumps on this post its just a bit of fun and said in jest hence the Lols. Lol

[keighley]

Err, what makes you think people in Canada have heard of Coventry, Newcastle or even Wales? What's your point, as there's no teams of significance from those places, or even London! You're almost suggesting we start a whole franchise up in Canada, where the people will have zero knowledge or interest, and that our provincial teams won't be glamorous enough for their big city franchise mentality anyway. Absolute madness!

 

Also, you can't compare flying from Toronto to Vancouver as the same as travelling from Toronto to London. The taxes and other things make it a whole lot cheaper to travel within domestic Canada. Also, if it's to spread the word in Canada, what's the use of just one club based in the East? Will this be a Canadian club keeping their foot in the door of an English league, whilst starting their own up? If anything, why don't they arrange something with US teams/cities like in other NA sports, why one team in a league on another continent?

 

Bad idea all round, completely ridiculous. It's like us starting a minor league baseball team in Manchester to get a slice of NA baseball cash, by using our selling point of having access to Old Trafford, along with the fact we're mad on spectator sports and that we love cricket. Completely stupid.

 

We need to get this region in order first before we start becoming a World league.

As I read their proposal it's more like we start a minor league baseball team in Manchester and we pay for the team, the expenses of the visitng teams to this country and offer to pay a sponsorship of the parent league to boot. The Canadians do not seem to be asking for any financial input from the RFL at all.

I can just imagine when the Australians requested a British team to tour Australia in 1908 or the French wanted assistance to get the game going in France in the middle of the English depression that you would be saying "we need to get this region in order first before we start to become a world league".

Seeing as how this initiative seems to be without risk for the European game, I fail to see why we can't fix our region AND expand at the same time. The novelty factor might even bring us a little help in fixing our game.

[keighley]

Completely ridiculous idea. How about the Canadians start their own league proper, and pay for a few glamour games in Canada involving the likes of Super League sides? Maybe hold a second Magic Weekend there to showcase the sport?

 

The extra wage cap they intend to use and the ridiculous logistics expense could be pumped into promoting the sports in Toronto and the wider area along with grassroots investment, not just for getting their foot in the door of an established league which'll only benefit one area of one large soulless city. Infact, Toronto could well be a shitter proposal and a harder sell than London.

 

Can't we just keep it real, surely England - rest of the UK - Europe is enough to contend with?

1. The Canadians already have their own league. to me this is the icing on the cake like the Catalans and he French league and ghe Warriors and the NZ leagues.

2. it's their money to use as they see fit. If we give them the thumbs down , maybe they will switch to RU and approach them.

3. The game started in the north of England, but is now played in many countries with Australia the pinnacle of success. If we had stayed parochial and never engaged outside of out origins, we might not exist today. We should not be afraid of challenges, especially if we are playing with other people's money as in this case.

[Northern Sol]

As I read their proposal it's more like we start a minor league baseball team in Manchester and we pay for the team, the expenses of the visitng teams to this country and offer to pay a sponsorship of the parent league to boot. The Canadians do not seem to be asking for any financial input from the RFL at all.

I can just imagine when the Australians requested a British team to tour Australia in 1908 or the French wanted assistance to get the game going in France in the middle of the English depression that you would be saying "we need to get this region in order first before we start to become a world league".

Seeing as how this initiative seems to be without risk for the European game, I fail to see why we can't fix our region AND expand at the same time. The novelty factor might even bring us a little help in fixing our game.

The thing is that a tour makes financial sense. This does not. If they just want to bring RL to Canada then there are better ways of doing it.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

Logisticaly this is doable - the precurser to this was the World League of American Football which lasted 1991-1992. Flying a Rugby League team, over costs less than a football (US not soccer) team and could be done on a commercial as opposed to chartered flight.

That said you have to be cashed up and the three words Sir Allen Stanford spring to mind so I hope for one due diligence is followed.

Also to be a big hit you need to have the best playing the best so IMO the prospect of a Wigan -Saints fixture at BMO Field where the Toronto FC soccer club plays as part of a British themed week with the Canadian club as apart of a double header would be an option. 

Having the RFL's own version of the NFL international series with games at the Royal Dublin Showground and Scotstoun as well makes far more sense than continuing the tragic weekend but has unfortuantely has zero chance of getting off the ground under the current regieme.

Getting out of the Championship would be a priority though for Canadian expansion for once the novelty has worn off, the prospect of playing in front of palty crowds at Swinton and London Skolars will wear thin.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

My mate Reevesy says he'll go and watch them. he lives in BRitish Columbia which is further away from Toronto than well you know.

[themainbrace]

I obviously don't know how solid the finances are behing Toronto but they certainly seem to have considered many of the problems.  The biggest one for me is how they could get a set of part-time players willing to come to the UK for 6-7 week blocks.  It could take 3 trips in total.

 

I don't know how inconvenient the travelling would be for the other championship 1 players.  I know if it was me I'd chop my right arm off for a fully expenses paid trip to play a game in Canada once a year, but then I'd probably get dropped for only having 1 arm.

 

It would make sense to test the water a little bit, like Canada doing a tour of the UK and playing a few championship 1 teams or vice versa.

 

I certainly hope the RFL are able to accomodate the Canadians in some way given the level of interest they have even if it isn't a team in championship 1.

[Adelaide Tiger]

Until the Canadians can prove they can establish both the fanbase and a healthy infrastructure then I would not touch them with a ten foot pole. I would sooner se the likes of Coventry, Oxford, Gloucester and Hemel thrive than see this what I think is a ridiculous idea be given any consideration without guarantees that the Canadians could hold a sustainable foothold in the league for at least 10 years without commiting financial suicide. Futhermore, WHO finances the clubs / supporters trips out there, it could even end up, including cups, playing them twice away in a week. The whole idea is preposterous whimsy.

You say that the Canadians need to prove a fan base and healthy infrastructure yet you support the inclusion of Coventry, Oxford and Gloucester that as far as i know these clubs do not have a large RL fan base based on attendances or have big wealthy backers but we welcome them because it spreads our game. What is the difference?

As for the finance issue ..... For christs sake do us all a favour and actually read the Canadian proposal!

I assume you are against this purely because of the distance involved because if this was a proposal from Dublin you would welcome it - or is Dublin too far away?

Are you aware of the Super 15 RU competition between teams from Australia, NZ and South Africa. This tournament has a massive profile and arguably keeps RU afloat and in the media in Australia. The Dunedin Highlanders have a 16 hour trip to Cape Town. Manchester to Toronto is 8 hours.