Salford Red Devils

[The Parksider]

and in addition...the pics and features from when Salford players visited a Bury Broncos junior training session: 

Whiles Red Devils players players also attended the junior awards night to hand out awards.  

 

I'm interested in views about the junior scene in "Manchester/Salford and it's surrounds" 

 

Trad clubs like Langworthy "Reds", Folly Lane, Eccles, Bury etc, seem to be a base for feeding players into Salford in theory, in practice Wigan, Wire and Saints are on the doorstep.

 

If it was my £Millions I wouldn't want Salford lads going to the bigger clubs, and it would seem that the club as above are trying to forge links (and Langworthy's "Reds" may be reciprocal too) to get some sort of loyalty to the local SL club and pathway I'm sure scouts at other clubs will want to spoil.

 

Dr. Koukash (hope that's right!) has the tie up with Swinton and chased Oldham too. It'd be something if the club could forge links with the productive Oldham clubs. I assume this is to also ensure kids know who their local SL club is if they want a career in SL.

 

Four big clubs will be fighting hard for what is it seems to me to be a scarce local resource!

[The Parksider]

yes. We havent always been decent, or financially stable.

 

Well it is all relative, and never been relegated, and always having attendances in the top ten during the SL years is just that.

 

But I take your point that without Moran and the new ground you may have been another Castleford, and maybe even worse as Castleford have Fulton who has put in £Millions and cas have always produced big stars they could sell off to balance the books.

 

Are four big clubs sustainable in one relatively close area? If Salford find success who will end up having to move over?

 

Yes I know, the answers Yorkshire.

[Krytensmate]

Well it is all relative, and never been relegated, and always having attendances in the top ten during the SL years is just that.

 

But I take your point that without Moran and the new ground you may have been another Castleford, and maybe even worse as Castleford have Fulton who has put in £Millions and cas have always produced big stars they could sell off to balance the books.

 

Are four big clubs sustainable in one relatively close area? If Salford find success who will end up having to move over?

 

Yes I know, the answers Yorkshire.

Youve changed your tune ,you were arguing the opposite on another thread yeasterday 

 

Full of  ###### 

[The Parksider]

Full of  ###### 

 

Keep the thread on Salford please, and cut out the childishness.

[mmp]

I'm interested in views about the junior scene in "Manchester/Salford and it's surrounds" 

 

Snip

 

The issue has been hasn't been much by way of quality coming through the junior scene due to a mix of poor facilities, lack of playing depth and the continual competition of other sports - especially football - for the better sports players but also for peoples general time and energy.  You do not often see a Salford and area club playing in an upper division of the junior/youth leagues (and massive congrats should be given when they do - as Folly have on occasion).

 

Eccles are in the NCL and have their own ground and club house but their junior sides have been a bit patchy over the years (but this seems to be getting much better so do not see that as a criticism) while Folly have had the strongest junior sides but their facilities have been an issue (lost their club house but gained a changing room facility).  Langworthy have a good spread of juniors and have invested in making their 'house' (as thats what their club house is) a better club venue with a license in recent years so their footings are stronger too.  Cadishead too lack facilities but are growing - which is the same as in Bury which is growing without facilities (they've taken on an old cricket Pavilion but need resources to do it up).

 

There have been other occasional teams - Manchester Storm as an example - but these tend to be single team set-ups not long term club projects.

 

What Salford and the area needs are stronger clubs.

 

Compare Salford with Warrington which has 3 very good clubs playing at a decent level with great facilities and lots of junior sides (Crosfields, Woolston, Rylands) as well as other clubs (Latchford, Burtonwood etc.) with decent junior set-ups in an area where the dominance of football is less and you can see the scale of the challenge.

 

As for Oldham and Rochdale - there were Rochdale clubs at the Red Devils open day promoting themselves.  There are other links, if you look at Salford's Academy ranks its kids from the major Oldham and Rochdale teams that fill a lot of the slots (St. Annes, Mayfield, Waterhead).  That's because they are strong clubs etc. with good facilities.

 

For me - there are encouraging signs in the Salford area as there is a bit of a firmer footing than before with Langworthy having improved their facilities and any new initiative in Swinton should help Folly - Eccles have junior sides again too and Cadishead and ourselves in Bury are growing.  Little Hulton have done a few years at open age and have been positive about trying to run juniors - so again - maybe another 'club' set-up might emerge.  Add to that efforts by Mancunians and East Manchester and the base is looking a bit stronger than it has for a while.  It needs building on though - that's what is key.  

 

This initiative is very encouraging by the way - http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/burybroncos/news/2015-brings-new-broncos-cubs-team-1352950.html- the clubs in the area face common problems, especially in adding depth to their squads in the long-term - so working collaboratively helps.  One of the hardest things is keeping and gaining kids over time in sufficient numbers to compete, especially when playing against sides from areas who are literally 'bred' playing the game (imagine the difference between Bury Broncos and Wigan St. Pats in terms of a historic culture for RL - and those two sides do play against each other in junior ranks!).

 

You'll note the references to strong clubs throughout this. Strong clubs are sustainable and work year on year.  It is fundamentally not the job of the RFL or a SL club to run clubs - they need to be supported to grow etc. but must take ownership of their own growth and development. Whatever support structures are put in place to grow junior rugby - it must be premised on aiding community clubs to grow the game if that growth is to ever be sustained and too often that point is missed.

[Oxford]

I do, and you cannot buy success when you are constrained by the salary cap. It is a great leveller of rich chairmen. If you look at what drives success beyond paying full cap, then look at Saint Toppy's post. If your constrained by the cap such that top players have a choice where to go, they choose the medal winning sides, or the bigger more stable clubs. It is a long term process and you'd best look at Huddersfield under Ken Davey, where over a lot of years now, it's been extremely tough to get the crowds up, and tough to get the best players but there has been progress and part of that has been due to Bradford's demise with Fartown picking up a few good players at junior and senior level.

While I was all for the cap as a leveller when it meant saving clubs from themselves more than anything else it has levelled very little or nothing because of the discrepancies that allow some pigs to be more equal than others. There is an argument, which has a sound basis, that to keep it as it is will hold the sport back certainly the KfC brigade know this because they're in a great rush to follow some of MK's ideas up for themselves! 

 

As for you remembering other clubs being vilified for trying to buy success your recollections certainly exceed mine and, in the time reference I believe we are talking about, I was in the habit of reading every paper and magazine I could as well as searching t'interweb and I still don't recall any writer saying Saints etc etc can't buy success. That is unless you're simply referring to what people said in your local! 

 

"When people say call me John ......."  the Beiderbeck Affair   "There's a huge cloud of shame around ------ and ----------- being seen as bedfellows." Amanda Palmer

"And the pig got up and slowly walked away"  popular poem and song

[The Parksider]

You'll note the references to strong clubs throughout this. Strong clubs are sustainable and work year on year.  It is fundamentally not the job of the RFL or a SL club to run clubs - they need to be supported to grow etc. but must take ownership of their own growth and development. Whatever support structures are put in place to grow junior rugby - it must be premised on aiding community clubs to grow the game if that growth is to ever be sustained and too often that point is missed.

 

I should quote the whole post as a belter, why pay for glossy RL mags when there are reads like this.

 

The idea it's the strength of the facilites and set up that counts is a common theme??

 

The quote above I understand, but what stops a very rich man who wants the local junior game to thrive at least pay with a no strings approach towards better facilities and better set ups for the local clubs??

[The Parksider]

 

While I was all for the cap as a leveller when it meant saving clubs from themselves more than anything else it has levelled very little or nothing because of the discrepancies that allow some pigs to be more equal than others. There is an argument, which has a sound basis, that to keep it as it is will hold the sport back certainly the KfC brigade know this because they're in a great rush to follow some of MK's ideas up for themselves! 

 

As for you remembering other clubs being vilified for trying to buy success your recollections certainly exceed mine and, in the time reference I believe we are talking about, I was in the habit of reading every paper and magazine I could as well as searching t'interweb and I still don't recall any writer saying Saints etc etc 

 

 

Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure Saints were ever lacking success or lacking resources in terms of fans and quality players the area has developed for years, such that they had to buy it?. When did they "buy success"?

 

Dr. Koukash has to subsidise empty seats and a lack of junior development to create the initial success to get the ball rolling, but Fartown who have gone through this process will show you it's not an instant process. It can't be bought "off the hanger" to wear the same night?

[Krytensmate]

Keep the thread on Salford please, and cut out the childishness.

Fair enough ,just how credible are your opinions on Salford ,given your lack of knowledge of other clubs recent history 

[mmp]

 

 

The quote above I understand, but what stops a very rich man who wants the local junior game to thrive at least pay with a no strings approach towards better facilities and better set ups for the local clubs??

 

Nothing, and they'd be very welcome.

 

The point is that for longevity the 'club' has to be sustained so you are better funding what the club themselves identify as the route to growth and not presume a model.

[Viking Warrior]

My son played fit Trafford Raders u13s last year - Salford didn't cover themselves in glory - just left left them to sink or swim with minimal help. Did well though and could go along way.

 

 

and they are doing the same with folly lane and langworthy reds

[The Parksider]

and they are doing the same with folly lane and langworthy reds

 

Doing what mate? Supporting them or leaving them to sink or swim?

[Oxford]

Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure Saints were ever lacking success or lacking resources in terms of fans and quality players the area has developed for years, such that they had to buy it?. When did they "buy success"?

 

Dr. Koukash has to subsidise empty seats and a lack of junior development to create the initial success to get the ball rolling, but Fartown who have gone through this process will show you it's not an instant process. It can't be bought "off the hanger" to wear the same night?

It is true to say that Saints have rarely been out of the top to worry about it but they have had their periods of buying and heavily so.

The situation at SRD is one of a lack of success over too many years added to the nearness of MU which is the overwhelming brand even now!

I think that MK had to buy a team (rather than attempting to buy success) out of necessity as much because of where SRD were as the general malaise within the club which at best has been like Chad with it's nose showing over the wall!

If what MK actually said and not making up what he said is the issue I think he totally agrees with you. However, I think there has been a sad witch hunt where he's concerned which does not show our sport in a good light, and that's what God made trolls for!  

 

"When people say call me John ......."  the Beiderbeck Affair   "There's a huge cloud of shame around ------ and ----------- being seen as bedfellows." Amanda Palmer

"And the pig got up and slowly walked away"  popular poem and song

[Viking Warrior]

Doing what mate? Supporting them or leaving them to sink or swim?

 

 

leaving them to sink or swim, local junior rugby in salford is on its backside 

[Segovia Carpet]

leaving them to sink or swim, local junior rugby in salford is on its backside 

`Viking Warrior in Salford Rant' shocker - the man is like a stuck record.

[Pie tries]

Doing what mate? Supporting them or leaving them to sink or swim?

Doing what mate? Supporting them or leaving them to sink or swim?

What annoys me is that it's not that difficult, Salford just don't seem to know how to engage with their local community. Here in Altrincham SRD could have a cracking supporters base - there is much RL interest - despite RLs inability to promote itself

[The Parksider]

 

It is true to say that Saints have rarely been out of the top to worry about it but they have had their periods of buying and heavily so.

The situation at SRD is one of a lack of success over too many years added to the nearness of MU which is the overwhelming brand even now!

I think that MK had to buy a team (rather than attempting to buy success) out of necessity as much because of where SRD were as the general malaise within the club which at best has been like Chad with it's nose showing over the wall!

If what MK actually said and not making up what he said is the issue I think he totally agrees with you. However, I think there has been a sad witch hunt where he's concerned which does not show our sport in a good light, and that's what God made trolls for!  

 

Thank you for your interesting reply/

[Saint Toppy]

 

It is true to say that Saints have rarely been out of the top to worry about it but they have had their periods of buying and heavily so.

 

 

Saints have never really spent heavily, especially in the SL era.

They broke the transfer record when they bought Newlove but most of that money came from Wigan's purchase of Gary Connelly. When they bought the likes of Long & Sculthorpe neither were established Internationals, just young players with lots of promise who then went on to achieve great things in the game. Jamie Lyon came on a free transfer and the likes of Cunningham, Roby, Wellens & Graham were all home grown.

[The Parksider]

Saints have never really spent heavily, especially in the SL era.

They broke the transfer record when they bought Newlove but most of that money came from Wigan's purchase of Gary Connelly. When they bought the likes of Long & Sculthorpe neither were established Internationals, just young players with lots of promise who then went on to achieve great things in the game. Jamie Lyon came on a free transfer and the likes of Cunningham, Roby, Wellens & Graham were all home grown.

 

Very interesting that, stable successful big club attracting kids to play the game and developing their own stars from that to attracting outside talent and not always ready made, all to an affordable budget thanks to the on field fare being attractive to people to watch who turn up and pay a fair price to do so.

 

For Salford the fans and players of the future are out there. Or should the good Doctor just buy Saints instead? 

[sweaty craiq]

Saints paid about £300k for Sculthorpe when they signed him from Wire

[Saint Toppy]

Or should the good Doctor just buy Saints instead? 

He tried but Eamon McManus refuse to sell to him

[Saint Toppy]

Saints paid about £300k for Sculthorpe when they signed him from Wire

Which at the time many (myself included) thought was way over the top for a young player who was yet to really establish himself. He proved us all wrong a showed he really was worth the price tag.

[sweaty craiq]

Which at the time many (myself included) thought was way over the top for a young player who was yet to really establish himself. He proved us all wrong a showed he really was worth the price tag.

 

He had already played internationally

[Red John]

What annoys me is that it's not that difficult, Salford just don't seem to know how to engage with their local community. Here in Altrincham SRD could have a cracking supporters base - there is much RL interest - despite RLs inability to promote itself

That may well have been the case under the previous regime, but seems to be much less the case now, with links being formed with local amateur clubs and with Marwan's stated intention of marketing the club in the Greater Salford area. If you think Altrincham has potential, then why not contact Martin Vickers (the Salford CEO) and let him know?

[Red John]

Very interesting that, stable successful big club attracting kids to play the game and developing their own stars from that to attracting outside talent and not always ready made, all to an affordable budget thanks to the on field fare being attractive to people to watch who turn up and pay a fair price to do so.

 

For Salford the fans and players of the future are out there. Or should the good Doctor just buy Saints instead? 

One important factor is the ability to keep those homegrown players at the club, and Salford haven't been able to do that. When a club is struggling. it's inevitable that any players that do come through in the area or through the club's academy get tempted elsewhere.