Hull FC and Hull KR to merge...

[Ullman]

Surely if a merger was to happen Hull KFC would be a far better name. The playing shirts could be red and white and have the Colonel's face on them.

Hull FCKR has got more going for it IMO.

[Evil Homer]

It actually improves both the Academy and the local youth competition. At the moment FC and Rovers both sign up 20 players for their academies, that means 40 players taken out of the community game, even though only half a dozen of them will ever go on to have SL careers. The others are there simply to make up the numbers in the development stage. The result is that the community clubs lose youngsters who have no chance of ever making the grade and who rarely return to their old clubs when they get released.

 

The same thing happens all over the country, and is one of the main reasons the sport loses community players in the transition from age group to open age.

 

Having only one academy in Hull means there will be less wastage, more youngsters will stay at an appropriate level, and those who do sign with the academy will be hot-housed alongside the very best from that city and surrounding areas.

In that case let's merge Leeds, Huddersfield and Bradford into a 'Yorkshire' academy. Etc etc. It's a ridiculous move and the RFL should be looking at sanctions against the clubs if they go ahead with it.

[Ullman]

Is this just a cost saving exercise?

 

I'm not sure of the benefits as it will narrow the pool of players likely to get to Super League, rather than increase it. I can only see a benefit if they use the money saved to invest in the academies emerging areas like North East, Midlands etc to raise the standard and potential pool there

Reading the comments of Hudgell and Person I have no doubt whatsoever that it's primarily a cost saving exercise.

 

Hudgell can't afford to match the facilities Hull have at Bishop Burton and Pearson is looking to cut costs. I believe it has very little to do with what's right for player development in this area. It doesn't even sound as if it's been thought through.

 

I only hope KC have the bandwith to cope with the social media meltdown.

[Hullfan]

Absolutely stupud idea if Kr are struggling and are gash in there development of youth well that is there problem not hull fcs. Last time I looked fc academy was goin rather well. Only one winner here Hull KR.....its f!@#$&g stinks

[DeadShotKeen]

OK this has had time to sink in now. I now realise that this is not only a hugely flawed decision but actually the exact opposite of what should have happened.

 

As many have stated, FC appear at face value the big losers here. It is indeed strange to digest this news when you read Pearson's glowing endorsement of his own academy set-up.

 

So what's in for them?

 

It's obvious. They're skint aren't they? Clearly there is a tangible cost-saving for FC here that merits them leveling the playing field with Rovers vis a vis youth development (albeit I hear the caveat that they may request first dibs on the "draft" selections....bizarre). We know that Hudgell loses millions every year and it's hard to think that Pearson does better than break even. So rather than Pearson twist the knife there is a mutual benefit to sharing the oxygen.

 

Now then. What does this mean?

 

What it means is that in order to pump money into the panting, wheezing pro sides at senior level Pearson and Hudgell have effectively decided to mortgage the future of RL in the area by cutting costs at junior level. That simple.

 

So what should have happened?

 

Well, the clubs should have merged. 20 years ago really but today would have done. This would save £many thousands in running costs, extra TV cash etc. that could then most certainly have been spent on maintaining 2 youth systems and ideally both traditional clubs at a lower feeder level, thus not only securing but reinforcing the city's status as a strong outpost for the game at all levels.

 

Finally, what does this all mean?

 

That Pearson and Hudgell are the latest in a long line of cowardly, deluded short-term English RL strategists who somehow feel that their expensive, damaging experiments in trying to prove that 1975 and 2015 are the same things are noble and dignified because the Hull merger will not take place "on their watch".

 

The whole thing is an unmitigated, half-baked disaster. It probably does mark the first step towards a merger (when Hudgell has sold up in a couple of years, most likely) but for all of the wrong reasons.

 

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 

[terrywebbisgod]

Youngest son was at a development day over the school holidays talking to lads from HKR and none of them were happy with the standards of coaching or facilities they have.So as some have alluded to,a cost cutting exercise. 

[Padge]

Is this just a cost saving exercise?

 

I'm not sure of the benefits as it will narrow the pool of players likely to get to Super League, rather than increase it. I can only see a benefit if they use the money saved to invest in the academies emerging areas like North East, Midlands etc to raise the standard and potential pool there

 

Its actually the other way around, you have two teams of good players bolstered by average and below average players who you must pay.

 

Instead you get all the best players in one team and don't need to carry the ones you know won't make it to make up the numbers.

[Roy Boy]

Seems fair, Warrington get an exciting winger who was one of the best products from Hull's academy and in return the new side gets to play in Warrington's colours.

Have they signed Callum Lancaster???????

[The Parksider]

We all know where this thread will end up, but this is genuinely a big deal.

 

If merging the academies creates one top-class academy rather than two average ones, great. But I thought Hull FC already had top facilities and had invested a load of cash into beefing up its academy system over the last few years.

 

Well he got there before you and obviously we were going to end up with the "M" word. 

 

Hull may have top class academy facilities, but they can't profit from them, read Pearson's lips:

 

"It is a case of a decline in the talent pool in Hull with less school kids playing the game. We've not got the number of talented players. The cost of running a Super League team and an academy is high, sponsors are drifting away and we have a decline in talent.

 

It's always worth looking at this outside the bubble of Hull, perhaps to Castleford where Steve Gill CEO made the same statement about less kids playing RL and their talent pool shrinking, Does the Wakefield academy create enough top players (or any at all now) Featherstone managed Zac Hardaker out of theirs who promptly went to Leeds. Expect a Calder academy to follow.

 

You could even be looking at a Cheshire academy here albeit Warringtons success on the playing field seems to have got some talented lads interested and coming through, but that's the difference. The lack of on field success in Hull since they both ended up in SL doesn't help to get the kids interested, and even fan interest is falling away markedly.

 

On the other subject of rebranding and badges it occurred to me a Hull Academy badge could be a tree with a branch and a Robin and an Airlie Bird sitting side by side!

[Old Frightful]

A bit more meat on the bones from Motu Tony.

[gingerjon]

One of the biggest beefs on the community boards seems to be the $toopid League clubs hoovering up young players that they know won't make the grade.  One of the proposals in the RFL wonder document that brought us #everysecondcountsnowyouknow was to reduce the number of academies, or, at least raise the standard and keep them relevant for the whole game.

 

Joining the dots this seems like the culmination of both those ideas.  And it saves clubs money at a time when, as ever, we're not exactly flush.

[The Parksider]

OK this has had time to sink in now. 

 

1. What it means is that in order to pump money into the panting, wheezing pro sides at senior level Pearson and Hudgell have effectively decided to mortgage the future of RL in the area by cutting costs at junior level.

 

2. So what should have happened? Well, the clubs should have merged. 20 years ago really but today would have done. The whole thing is an unmitigated, half-baked disaster. It probably does mark the first step towards a merger..............

 

Not sure it has sunk in with you?

 

Read Hudgell's lips "It is in no way, shape or form a pre-cursor to a full merger between the clubs. The the pride, passion, history and rivalry that exists between the two sides  will never change. I'm a fifth-generation Rovers fan and I cannot ever see the day when there is only one Rugby League club in Hull. I'm sure everybody else feels the same way and it's certainly not going to happen on my watch"

 

The massive danger is if they DO merge and the two mediocre sides become one mediocre side and actually go nowhere other than maintaining the struggle to get into the top eight, then where do you think crowds would be??

 

The two chairmen won't take the massive gamble Hull could end up with nobody in Superleague and that has happened. In 1996 Superleague started without either of the Hull clubs at a time when Division One was more attractive than today's Championship. In that second tier....

 

Hull averaged 3,000 crowds and in the third tier Rovers averaged 1,700.

 

Hull Rugby League fans clearly are interested in Success not merger. 

 

This agreement should be taken for what it is, two pragmatic chairmen who realise their clubs are not particularly any good for each other (the "Derby" couldn't sell out NCP last year could it?, and now we find that two Hull SL clubs are not stimulating any growth in junior RL talent in the city - I doubt a poor merged Hull could do that either) agreeing to a deal to help give one or the other what they now crave which will be regular Elite top eight Rugby for one, whilst the other one goes back whence they came.

 

It's Padges fight to the death.  

[scotchy]

Good idea. Do the same for everyone else now

[Ullman]

A bit more meat on the bones from Motu Tony.

"The Hull director of football has hailed what has quickly become a controversial issue among fans, insisting supporters need to have faith in their clubs and trust in the plan."

 

There's a plan? Would they care to share it with us? All I've heard so far is empty rhetoric with absolutely no evidence that this is the product of any kind of genuine strategic review and this "A draft system, understood to alternate each year to determine who has the first pick, will see the clubs share the best young talent each season" is just about the daftest idea I've heard. Surely nobody can seriously believe the two clubs will just politely take it in turns to sign the most promising youngsters. 

[Jarv]

As a Hull (FC) fan my initial reaction is simply that I would prefer this not to happen. BUT. And I guess this is perhaps a question to people who support teams that have outstanding acadeys. How many first teamers do you actually produce from one years/batch of academy players?

I often watch the FC academy and there are maybe 2 or 3 you know will become first team players. Maybe 2 or 3 more fringe players. The rest you know already wont make it and may play championship. In some of the top academys maybe this number is higher?

But if this is the case for FC and KR why waste money on those players? You are using them just to fill a team for the other players.

 

That said I think the draft part if true is flawed. I would understand if FC or KR "sign" the player before the academy and maybe have half each. I just think there are kids in West and East Hull who want to sign for one of the teams even if the offer is better from the other. They have grown up wanting to play for there team.

[DeadShotKeen]

Well he got there before you and obviously we were going to end up with the "M" word. 

 

Hull may have top class academy facilities, but they can't profit from them, read Pearson's lips:

 

"It is a case of a decline in the talent pool in Hull with less school kids playing the game. We've not got the number of talented players. The cost of running a Super League team and an academy is high, sponsors are drifting away and we have a decline in talent.

 

It's always worth looking at this outside the bubble of Hull, perhaps to Castleford where Steve Gill CEO made the same statement about less kids playing RL and their talent pool shrinking, Does the Wakefield academy create enough top players (or any at all now) Featherstone managed Zac Hardaker out of theirs who promptly went to Leeds. Expect a Calder academy to follow.

 

You could even be looking at a Cheshire academy here albeit Warringtons success on the playing field seems to have got some talented lads interested and coming through, but that's the difference. The lack of on field success in Hull since they both ended up in SL doesn't help to get the kids interested, and even fan interest is falling away markedly.

 

On the other subject of rebranding and badges it occurred to me a Hull Academy badge could be a tree with a branch and a Robin and an Airlie Bird sitting side by side!

 

So in other words all of the areas that need merged academies are those where the fanbases are also low because they're spread across too many teams. Funny that, eh?

 

Could it be that the reason fewer kids are playing the sport in these areas is directly linked to the poor performance of these teams in the modern era?

 

So what is the solution? We all know it but most of you will favour whipping up thin partisan defences of the existing system rather than embracing it.

 

We never learn but the day does draw nearer.

[DeadShotKeen]

Not sure it has sunk in with you?

 

Read Hudgell's lips "It is in no way, shape or form a pre-cursor to a full merger between the clubs. The the pride, passion, history and rivalry that exists between the two sides  will never change. I'm a fifth-generation Rovers fan and I cannot ever see the day when there is only one Rugby League club in Hull. I'm sure everybody else feels the same way and it's certainly not going to happen on my watch"

 

The massive danger is if they DO merge and the two mediocre sides become one mediocre side and actually go nowhere other than maintaining the struggle to get into the top eight, then where do you think crowds would be??

 

The two chairmen won't take the massive gamble Hull could end up with nobody in Superleague and that has happened. In 1996 Superleague started without either of the Hull clubs at a time when Division One was more attractive than today's Championship. In that second tier....

 

Hull averaged 3,000 crowds and in the third tier Rovers averaged 1,700.

 

Hull Rugby League fans clearly are interested in Success not merger. 

 

This agreement should be taken for what it is, two pragmatic chairmen who realise their clubs are not particularly any good for each other (the "Derby" couldn't sell out NCP last year could it?, and now we find that two Hull SL clubs are not stimulating any growth in junior RL talent in the city - I doubt a poor merged Hull could do that either) agreeing to a deal to help give one or the other what they now crave which will be regular Elite top eight Rugby for one, whilst the other one goes back whence they came.

 

It's Padges fight to the death.  

 

"On my watch" is the key phrase there. This sets the table for Hudgell selling up in a year or 2 to a new organisation who co-operate with a merger allowing Hudgell to paint himself as the last surviving rugby league hero in East Hull to whoever will listen in his twilight years. This is possibly even how he drew it up all those years ago. All it makes him is a modern day King Canute and his investment in the club - whilst very welcome and commendable - ultimately a bit of a waste (although the KC Lightstream will be a credit to his tenure and of use for the sport and the City moving forward).

 

You've really no right to take any moral high ground here Parky. Your advocated path is for clubs like FC and KR to fight to the death on a "last man standing" basis wasting years and £many thousands, whilst this topic patently proves that this is not happening any time soon. The 2 Hull clubs are relatively equal and clearly both realise it. Whilst we have moderately wealthy local businessmen running them it seems unlikely either will be brave enough to merge the teams. That needs to be forced through by the sport's administration, which is actually more healthy anyway as it gives the RL fans of Hull a stark but ultimately well-meaning choice - "Embrace the new merged team or hate the sport forever" - rather than unfairly creating local villains. The vast majority will choose the former, because ultimately rugby league is bigger and better than any individual club or clubs and deep down we all know this.

[Roy Boy]

It's a hard one this -

 

1). I can't see any form of draft working unless the player wants to go to the club with first choice - If 90% decide they'll only go to either side, it somewhat defeats the whole idea!

 

2). Whilst I am pleased with the amount of cash coming into the game, I don't want it turning into the soulless merrygoround that Soccer and Rugby Union have been turned into.  This idea will only lead to more players following the money rather than their allegiance.  Nothing better than a homegrown kid making the grade and staying loyal! 

 

3). I'm sure that the professionalism of RU has lead to a bit of withering on the vine too - I recently watched my old club and was straggered by the lack of quality from players that were actually being paid !!! (Takes old codgers hat off!)

 

4). Regardless of the above, Hull still has just over 15% representation in National Conference Premier and League 1, which I would say means we still punch above our weight as a Rugby League Area.

 

5). Whether expensive academies are continued or not, A Teams should be reintroduced (spend some of the Sky cash to help fund it) as that system worked for years in developing new players and allowing those returning from injury to get a run out rather than playing for a team in the league below 40 miles away!

 

As to a future merger - IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN !!!

[The Parksider]

You've really no right to take any moral high ground here Parky. Your advocated path is for clubs like FC and KR to fight to the death on a "last man standing" basis wasting years and £many thousands, whilst this topic patently proves that this is not happening any time soon. Let it go

 

You let it go. The bosses now confirm they don't want it, and the fan base of 18,000 regulars seem to be 17,999 - 1 against "merger". You have no evidence a merged side could get a decent crowd, retain the best players in Hull, or get in the top eight. Hudge didn't build his improved ground just to merge.

 

So in other words all of the areas that need merged academies are those where the fanbases are also low because they're spread across too many teams. Funny that, eh?

 

Open your eyes and ears man. In a few weeks Superleague will be cut to eight clubs, and this week you've seen the start of a cut to around eight SL academies.

 

The two Hull clubs are great at failing to get into the top eight. Being in the top eight is now more important than ever.

 

They have all on as it stands to try to get one of them in let alone two in the new elite to ensure top class RL in Hull continues.

 

Merge them and you create a much much bigger risk neither getting in and Hull going back to 1996 and literally never seeing SL again.............

[Old Frightful]

Adam Pearson interview from yesterday, trying to explain a few things but leaving me rather unconvinced about them.

 

http://www.therfl.co.uk/news/article/32600/sltv-pearson-explains-academy-merger

[scotchy]

there are two things this could be.

 

1) two clubs putting aside petty rivalry and parochialism for the young rl players of the uk. Joining together to invest in players becoming the best them that they can be even if it means at another club. Far too much in this country is 'me first' especially in RL (sometimes as a product of the environment created) and this is a great decision to put the player and young man first.

 

2) its a cost cutting exercise from two clubs who have struggled to develop youngsters from their academy and rather than fix 2 failing academies they will share one. They have seen the numbers playing RL in hull falling and rather deal with the difficulty of  growing that, we have seen them simply give up and share whats left.

 

for me the first reason would make this a great, forward thinking, innovative decision, a real game changer in a positive way. The second is terrible and all to similar to the other decisions taken within RL which are indicative of not growing, but managing the decline. I really hope its the former, its probably the latter.

[Ullman]

Neatly summed up, scotchy.

 

I share your apprehension that it's the latter.

[Old Frightful]

Craig Murdock's comments

[The Parksider]

there are two things this could be.

 

1) two clubs putting aside petty rivalry and parochialism for the young rl players of the uk. Joining together to invest in players becoming the best them that they can be even if it means at another club. Far too much in this country is 'me first' especially in RL (sometimes as a product of the environment created) and this is a great decision to put the player and young man first.

 

2) its a cost cutting exercise from two clubs who have struggled to develop youngsters from their academy and rather than fix 2 failing academies they will share one. They have seen the numbers playing RL in hull falling and rather deal with the difficulty of  growing that, we have seen them simply give up and share whats left.

 

for me the first reason would make this a great, forward thinking, innovative decision, a real game changer in a positive way. The second is terrible and all to similar to the other decisions taken within RL which are indicative of not growing, but managing the decline. I really hope its the former, its probably the latter.

 

That's OK as a well balanced and well written summary but whether it "cuts costs" or whether it "invests in players to be the best they can" it still leaves the central issue that less and less of the "Raw Material" of young sportsmen are putting themselves forward to be RL professionals.

 

That decline isn't restricted to Hull and it's something most clubs face.

 

In fact is it an "either or" or do two parochial clubs see BOTH cost savings AND an improved environment to get the best out of a dwindling junior Elite? I'd suspect that's the case and I suspect you have something with "managing decline"

 

Hudgell was the one to call for less clubs in Superleague leaving the way open for himself to assist by walking away and leaving the club to Tony Larvin the Nahabooesque saviour of a club where the figures don't add up.

 

But he stayed and he invested in better ground facilities to up the take, and he's facing better SKY money too so he's sticking around. The funny thing for me is the agonising about which academy stars will each club get from the combined academy, when in reality the beneficiaries of Hull academies are often neither club with what few stars are produced leaving for more successful SL clubs or for the NRL.

 

Only the other day someone listed the young lads who had left Humberside, so are the improvements in the Hull academy system in reality going to be welcomed by Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Wire?

 

Nothing but nothing would help boost academy RL in Hull more than a competitive professional side that isn't on a tight budget. At least Mr. Keene recognises that, but his folly is how he thinks it should come about.

 

The other year when HKR were struggling a bit Pearson targetted HKR players IIRC overspending his budget to do so. Improving Hull FC and damaging HKR's prospects was the apparent plan and that won't go away. These clubs aren't "good for each other" and they both know they'd be far better off being the only SL ticket in town, and when they are they can have an improved academy to themselves and maybe more kids will get interested in playing.

 

An eight club elite SL probably won't contain two Hull clubs so cut costs now to at least improve the chances, and if only one makes it to the new Elite regularly (and the other one suffers from being outside it regularly), then the prize will probably be the combined academy to themselves.

[Old Frightful]

Today's Under 19s academy result from West Yorkshire,

 

Leeds 20 Hull FC 72.

 

Neil Hudgell spotted wandering round with a cheque book. 

 

Bring on the merger...