Lying politicians (merged threads)

[gingerjon]

Didn't get a death threat?  Want a death threat?

 

Just make one up.

 

EDIT

 

Or maybe it's just people.

 

Did I ever tell you about the time I totally saved this guy?

[Farmduck]

Maybe you're mixing up the donkey and the cart. Perhaps people who are unable to control their compulsive lying have to become politicians because they've burnt all their other bridges.

[Wolford6]

Liz Truss delivering party-policy interviews up in Cumbria today.

 

Being on the spot doesn't seem to have triggered the 'show some sympathy' switch.

 

I'm sure they'll have it sorted in time for the 1 O'clock News.

[gingerjon]

 

 

Being on the spot doesn't seem to have triggered the 'show some sympathy' switch.

 

 

Maybe the water's broke the circuit.

[ckn]

Just to be clear, it's all politicians of all parties that are tarnished by this.  Two SNP MPs are currently suspended from the party with the whip removed.  Two others (from an unknown party) have been referred to the police for expenses abuse.  All ministers (and shadow ones as well) seem to be capable of deliberately lying to get their point across, the Syria debate was a perfect example.

[Griff9of13]

Just to be clear, it's all politicians of all parties that are tarnished by this.  Two SNP MPs are currently suspended from the party with the whip removed.  Two others (from an unknown party) have been referred to the police for expenses abuse.  All ministers (and shadow ones as well) seem to be capable of deliberately lying to get their point across, the Syria debate was a perfect example.

 

Indeed. I would also include being deliberately economic with the truth in there as well.

[Wolford6]

Honourable exemption for Nadine Dorries.

 

She's just stiffed George Osborne on the Daily Politics.

[gingerjon]

Honourable exemption for Nadine Dorries.

 

 

Sadly, she's a quite famous liar.

[Martyn Sadler]

John McDonnell tweets abuse at himself.

[gingerjon]

John McDonnell tweets abuse at himself.

 

Another titan of the scene.

[ckn]

A very disappointing decision on Alistair Carmichael.  The precedent has been set now that you can say anything you want about your opponents as long as you do it to protect yourself.  It was found beyond reasonable doubt that he lied.  It was found beyond reasonable doubt that he blatantly lied to protect himself and to enhance his likelihood of winning his seat.  The judges just couldn't find beyond reasonable doubt that he lied to sabotage an opponent given that Sturgeon wasn't standing as an MP.  If found it interesting the wording though that suggests they did believe it was aimed at sabotaging his opponent in his constituency as well as the wider SNP but just couldn't prove it within the narrow wording of the law.

 

So, an extreme example, a candidate being pushed hard by UKIP in his constituency could blatantly lie that all UKIP MEPs are racist paedophiles and make up some spurious stats about it then apologise the day after the election and he would get away with it under this precedent because he's not targeting his direct constituency opponent or any other Kipper standing for MP.

 

I do think though that Carmichael should start preparing for a new job in 2020 though as unless the SNP suffers a catastrophic turnaround in fortunes then he'll not be winning next time.

[Griff9of13]

Accountability for deeds and actions has all but gone for our political masters. 

[ckn]

He just can't stop:

 

“This case was politically motivated. It was a deliberate attempt by nationalists to remove the last Scottish Liberal voice at Westminster, and is a mark of the unhealthy polarisation of Scottish politics since the referendum.

 

“I shall continue to represent Orkney and Shetland as a member of parliament to the best of my ability, as I have done for the past 14 years.”

 

A Lib Dem source confirmed to BuzzFeed News that Carmichael will now seek to recoup legal costs of “around £150,000” from the four petitioners, whose original crowdfunder just to cover their own legal fees reached £167,000.

 

No, you great last relic of Westminster politics in Scotland, you were found to have blatantly lied by an Election Court and you were found to have blatantly lied to discredit the SNP and also save your own bum.  You were only found to have not breached the law by the strictest interpretation of "reasonable doubt" on whether you lied about an electoral candidate.  No court in the world will give you your £150,000 in costs back.

[Jonty]

It's often wrongly assumed that Carmichael's lie is that he made up the comments said by Nicola Sturgeon. He didn't.  Carmichael lied that he hadn't seen the memo, when he had. What newspapers like "The National" miss - either intentionally or not - is that Nicola Sturgeon may have preferred to have seen David Cameron in No. 10 and may have said this to the French ambassador.

 

Regardless, Carmichael doesn't come out of this with any credit and it will be interesting to see how Orkney & Shetland reacts in the Holyrood elections next year.

[Saintslass]

 The judges just couldn't find beyond reasonable doubt that he lied to sabotage an opponent given that Sturgeon wasn't standing as an MP. 

I don't really think it was a case of 'just', because this is what the law speaks to.  It doesn't speak to telling lies but to doing so about your opponent to discredit them, which is fair enough because slander and such like should not be allowed during the campaign trail.

[Saintslass]

He just can't stop:

 

No, you great last relic of Westminster politics in Scotland, you were found to have blatantly lied by an Election Court and you were found to have blatantly lied to discredit the SNP and also save your own bum.  You were only found to have not breached the law by the strictest interpretation of "reasonable doubt" on whether you lied about an electoral candidate.  No court in the world will give you your £150,000 in costs back.

Might they give some costs back, since he won the case?  Isn't it usual for the losing side to pay costs to the winning side, either in total or in part?

[ckn]

Might they give some costs back, since he won the case?  Isn't it usual for the losing side to pay costs to the winning side, either in total or in part?

There's a general principle in law that you must come with clean hands in order to get the benefit of the court.  The idea is that if you've a morally dubious case then you may win but you'll get an award of £1 but with no costs awarded.  In this case, Carmichael was adjudged to have blatantly lied to further his own needs in an election, he's about as much chance of getting the £150,000 back as I have of being the next Prime Minister.

 

On a different subject, if the Lib Dems have paid this then they may wonder whether it would have been better to throw him to the dogs than fight it given that the government has just cut the Short Money.  The Lib Dems are due to lose £200,000 in annual funding from the state from this, add on the £150,000 lost in costs and the costs of seeking those costs back and the Lib Dems will be struggling to fund themselves very soon.

 

Edit: some info on the clean hands doctrine for those who want to read more about it.

[Saintslass]

There's a general principle in law that you must come with clean hands in order to get the benefit of the court.  The idea is that if you've a morally dubious case then you may win but you'll get an award of £1 but with no costs awarded.

Ah right.  Fair enough.  That explains it. 

[gingerjon]

 Isn't it usual for the losing side to pay costs to the winning side, either in total or in part?

 

I think it's far less common than people think.  Even allowing for the doctrine ckn describes - which I'm not sure actually has any legal weight - it's usual for people to be significantly out of pocket whilst the defence legal team jet off to Neckar for the weekend.  And all governments in recent years have made it less likely that a successful defence will be able to recover costs.

 

Anyway, on this case, it's remarkably grim all round.  Carmichael looks a fool and is a proven liar.  I'd rather he stood down than fought on now.  Where he differs from most other politicians is in getting caught.  And even then it's only because The National is a partisan comic that wanted to force the case for its own ends - it's remarkably less keen on pursuing the Scotland-controlling SNP's misdemeanours.

[John Drake]

Sorry to be cynical, but the notion that Alistair Carmichael is the only politician who ever told a lie in order to get elected is fanciful in the extreme. As is the implied notion that the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon only ever tell the truth. They wouldn't be where they are now if they did!

 

Compare the manifestos of any party that was ever elected to government with what they actually did when they got there and they will be revealed to be mostly works of utter fiction.

 

Who remembers 'no more boom and bust' or 'we will eliminate the deficit in a single Parliament' - just two recent examples of absolute undeliverable whoppers that were taken at face value when they were originally uttered but look plainly ridiculous and deceitful now. Then there's Nick 'say one thing, do the exact opposite' Clegg...

 

In recent months, who remembers the current government saying they'd scrap tax credits BEFORE the General Election? No one, because they never said it. Cameron even denied it on live television! They wouldn't have won if they had. Yet they reveal it like a rabbit from a hat within weeks of winning on the absolutely false premise that billions of welfare cuts would only ever hit 'other' people, the workshy, the feckless, but never 'hard working families' who voted Tory.

 

If politicians and parties only ever told the unvarnished truth, no one would ever vote for them. The public is complicit in the deception. On the rare occasion a politician says what they actually believe, they are torn apart for not toeing the party line by hypocrites who claim that's all they ever want from politicians. Look at the current state of the Labour Party for proof of that.

 

I'm not justifying that politicians lie, just not sticking my head in the sand and pretending it doesn't happen all the time in every election that has ever been fought. If every lie in every election leaflet or manifesto were challenged in court, we'd be here till the end of days waiting to get to the final verdict. It's probably why Carmichael got off on a technicality, to save thousands of other similar cases clogging up the legal system for ever and a day.

[Griff9of13]

This Tory MP should be accountable for sexing up her Facebook post with an added 'death threat'

 

"MPs - unless they are Corbynites or better still the man himself - appear to be able to behave with impunity, and then sit back and laugh at the plebs when they have the audacity to express opinions about their actions in parliament."

[Methven Hornet]

Anyway, on this case, it's remarkably grim all round.  Carmichael looks a fool and is a proven liar.  I'd rather he stood down than fought on now.  Where he differs from most other politicians is in getting caught.  And even then it's only because The National is a partisan comic that wanted to force the case for its own ends - it's remarkably less keen on pursuing the Scotland-controlling SNP's misdemeanours.

Are you saying that the only reason he was caught was because of investigations by The National? The editorial team will be pleased. Even then they didn't 'force' the case. The case was brought by four of Carmichael's constituents, financed by public subscription - and most of the momentum for the 'crowd funding' was generated online.

The National is a pro-independence newspaper, not an SNP mouthpiece, and it often carries stories that are critical of the governing party. Not surprising given that many of its contributors come from the Scottish Greens, SSP, Radical Independence Campaign and Solidarity.

As for any impropriety by politicians, it is interesting that both SNP MPs that are currently under investigation were suspended by their party and had the whip removed. What are the Liberal Democrats going to do about one of their MPs being a self-confessed liar who disgraced both himself and the party whilst holding public office?

[gingerjon]

As for any impropriety by politicians, it is interesting that both SNP MPs that are currently under investigation were suspended by their party and had the whip removed. What are the Liberal Democrats going to do about one of their MPs being a self-confessed liar who disgraced both himself and the party whilst holding public office?

 

I'd have removed the whip from him but I know they won't.  The SNP has done the right thing with their MPs.

[Bedford Roughyed]

The Lucy Allen case gets stranger....

 

http://order-order.com/2015/12/15/lucy-allan-deletes-late-night-facebook-rant/

[DoubleD]

The biggest lie is by opposition MPs (particularly SNP) bleating on about austerity when spending is actually going up