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Bedford Roughyed

The great EU Referendum poll (new question in poll!)

EU Referendum  

149 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    • Remain a member of the European Union
      72
    • Leave the European Union
      66
    • Don't know?
      11
  2. 2. With two weeks to go, has your vote changed?

    • Yes, I was remain, now leave
      0
    • Yes, I was leave, now remain
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now leave
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now remain
      3
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to leave
      0
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to stay
      5
    • No, my intention is the same
      18


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Sure is - from 2001, a Brexit odyssey.

 

I wonder how many people have actually been prosecuted for this, and for secreting a bent cucumber on their person.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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So it does.  Todays date on the article threw me - Never trust a mate who is trying to convince you to vote 'Leave' by sending you 'current' stories. The one about the NHS is current isn't it?, or I will just remove the whole article.

 

 

Not true, either, it seems

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

 

By the way, there is a public health service in France and there is a public health service in Germany, too. but I have not yet heard anyone in those countries forecasting their demise


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Not true, either, it seems

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

By the way, there is a public health service in France and there is a public health service in Germany, too. but I have not yet heard anyone in those countries forecasting their demise

My lad was at the socialiste party offices in blois last week... he was talking to locals who are very worried about public health service under the current administration..... not that that's all that relevant to this discussion....

"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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 Never trust a mate 

 

I find this a good rule for life ...


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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This just isn't true.  You only had to listen to Heath, and especially Jenkins what they wanted from EEC membership

There was a pretty good documentary on this a few week back 'Europe them or us' and they showed many of the speeches Heath & Co made. He made no secret of his love for the EEC and that he thought it would be good for the UK but he already knew that plans were being drawn up for a single currency but deliberately chose not to tell the people that this was taking place. Back then the politicians had almost full control over what information was given to the public and what was kept back, unlike todays digital age.

We were also led to believe that we would have an equal voice in every decision made and that the 'European Parliament' would just be a forum for us to all get together to make those decisions together, and equally.


This is captain Juncker speaking. The EU gravy train is about to enter Brussels, so will all Brits please exit at the next stop

To all remaining passengers, thank you for your continued custom and contributions to my pension fund

Kind Regards - YOUR PRESIDENT !

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I'm puzzled by the part where that's not falsely obtaining people's data and thus illegal.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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My lad was at the socialiste party offices in blois last week... he was talking to locals who are very worried about public health service under the current administration..... not that that's all that relevant to this discussion....

Minor relevence and only in the context of TTIP so I'll not pursue it , but it worth you looking into the problems in France, see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-accused-of-disenfranchising-people-trying-to-register-to-vote-with-misleading-website-a7068661.html to begin. But I don't want to divert the thread ...so I won't.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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There was a pretty good documentary on this a few week back 'Europe them or us' and they showed many of the speeches Heath & Co made. He made no secret of his love for the EEC and that he thought it would be good for the UK but he already knew that plans were being drawn up for a single currency but deliberately chose not to tell the people that this was taking place. Back then the politicians had almost full control over what information was given to the public and what was kept back, unlike todays digital age.

We were also led to believe that we would have an equal voice in every decision made and that the 'European Parliament' would just be a forum for us to all get together to make those decisions together, and equally.

We have an equal voice in the council of ministers and in the commission. What seems to irk you is that everyone else has an equal voice too.  Presumably you think we should be more equal than the others. Those in favour of "yes" at the last referendum made no secret of their ambitions for a European Super State.  That was one of the reasons I voted for it.  I saw a way for Britain to regain its greatness.  But because we have had to be dragged kicking and screaming every time something more "European" is proposed we haven't achieved that.  The EU wanted closer ties, we wanted a "wider, not deeper Europe"  we got that an then complained that those from the wider bit were coming here.  We've spent our time to misquote JFK "asking not what we can do for Europe but what Europe should be doing for us!"  And every time we get a concession, but it's never enough for the likes of Farage, because they want out so that they can ride roughshod over people's rights with no recourse to the European Court.

Edited by Trojan

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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The problem is that "the Brexit lot" are in no position to tell us what they have planned, if only for the fact that they are not the government. All they can do is tell us what they would do, or what could be done, they would be totally unable to make any promises as to what will be done. As things stand, only Cameron, Osborne and co can make any concrete promises as they are the only ones in a position to deliver them. It'd be a great help if the government came out and told us what their plans are if the vote is to leave. I mean its all well and good them pointing out the negatives as part of their remain campaign but if it goes against them, which is a reasonable possibility, then it'd be useful to know what they would do to deal with that scenario.

It's the brexit lot who want us to leave, therefore it is incumbent upon them to explain to us exactly what they are aiming for. They have failed to do so. Spectacularly. So much so that they are either grossly incompetent or are being extremely deceitful. Take your pick.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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It's the brexit lot who want us to leave, therefore it is incumbent upon them to explain to us exactly what they are aiming for. They have failed to do so. Spectacularly. So much so that they are either grossly incompetent or are being extremely deceitful. Take your pick.

They are aiming to leave the EU.  

 

There is of course a third option: having never left the EU before, they are unable to explain in any greater detail other than what they have done.

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The problem is that "the Brexit lot" are in no position to tell us what they have planned, if only for the fact that they are not the government. All they can do is tell us what they would do, or what could be done, they would be totally unable to make any promises as to what will be done. As things stand, only Cameron, Osborne and co can make any concrete promises as they are the only ones in a position to deliver them. It'd be a great help if the government came out and told us what their plans are if the vote is to leave. I mean its all well and good them pointing out the negatives as part of their remain campaign but if it goes against them, which is a reasonable possibility, then it'd be useful to know what they would do to deal with that scenario.

Absolutely.

 

This point has been made a few times by a couple of the Vote Leave reps when interviewed.  Only the government can decide what the country will look like after 23 June, whether we remain in the EU or not.  The Leave camp can only describe what it would like the country to look like after 23 June and on that I think they have been very clear.

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They are aiming to leave the EU.

There is of course a third option: having never left the EU before, they are unable to explain in any greater detail other than what they have done.

in which case I'll stick with what we have.

There is no coherent decision or plan I am aware of that explains to me what out looks like..... other than an "it'll be reight".. no plan b.... no nowt.

Therefore it does not attract me to vote out.


"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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in which case I'll stick with what we have.

There is no coherent decision or plan I am aware of that explains to me what out looks like..... other than an "it'll be reight".. no plan b.... no nowt.

Therefore it does not attract me to vote out.

There is a plan though.  The plan is to leave the EU.  Beyond that there can only be hopes and wishes because it is the government which will control what happens and when.  There is even talk at the moment of Remain MPs blocking any move to leave should the vote go the way of Brexit, so the Leave group cannot even plan to leave the EU should the people vote in favour of doing so.

 

Opting for the status quo simply because you don't have a step by step guide to the future is a rather sad way of doing business in my book.  None of us knows what is going to happen tomorrow never mind in a few years' time and that is the case whether we remain in or leave the EU.  Why on earth you would expect the Leave group to produce such a plan I don't know.  You don't even ask for that in a general election.  

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It's the brexit lot who want us to leave, therefore it is incumbent upon them to explain to us exactly what they are aiming for. They have failed to do so. Spectacularly. So much so that they are either grossly incompetent or are being extremely deceitful. Take your pick.

 

I take your general point but I think it's a little unfair. What's the point in Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage etc stating they would definitely put £x into the NHS (for example) when they wouldn't have the power to carry it out (well, ok, Johnson may have in time but not now) ? The best you can hope for is them to say "this is the money we have available and this is what it could be used for". Anything else would be a false promise, something over which they have no control.

 

I am currently a "don't know" and quite frankly I don't believe what either side are saying. The truth will be somewhere in the middle, I guess it'll come down to if I think it is a gamble worth taking, and it is a gamble there's no mistaking that.

Edited by Derwent

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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The biggest problem with remain is they falsely assume the EU can survive in its current form. We're not voting for the EU of the 1990s, were voting for an EU of 50% youth unemployment in Greece and Spain, a Europe where anti-EU parties top the opinion polls in Austria, France, the Netherlands and sometimes Sweden and are close in Denmark and Italy. In fact the 5 Star Movement would win a majority under the 2 round Italian electoral system and be likely to call an EU referendum. Current polls have leave at 48% in Italy. Now take all this and try to imagine we're in the next economic downturn and tell me there's a future for the EU under the current form

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I take your general point but I think it's a little unfair. What's the point in Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage etc stating they would definitely put £x into the NHS (for example) when they wouldn't have the power to carry it out (well, ok, Johnson may have in time but not now) ? The best you can hope for is them to say "this is the money we have available and this is what it could be used for". Anything else would be a false promise, something over which they have no control.

I am currently a "don't know" and quite frankly I don't believe what either side are saying. The truth will be somewhere in the middle, I guess it'll come down to if I think it is a gamble worth taking, and it is a gamble there's no mistaking that.

It's not unfair at all. I have no expectation about what they will or won't do regarding domestic spending. What I do want and expect is a clear objective of what precisely "out" should look like. Unfortunately nothing at all has been forthcoming.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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The biggest problem with remain is they falsely assume the EU can survive in its current form. We're not voting for the EU of the 1990s, were voting for an EU of 50% youth unemployment in Greece and Spain, a Europe where anti-EU parties top the opinion polls in Austria, France, the Netherlands and sometimes Sweden and are close in Denmark and Italy. In fact the 5 Star Movement would win a majority under the 2 round Italian electoral system and be likely to call an EU referendum. Current polls have leave at 48% in Italy. Now take all this and try to imagine we're in the next economic downturn and tell me there's a future for the EU under the current form

The thing that makes it all completely different for us is that we're not in the Euro.  The Euro has been a devastatingly bad choice for some countries in the EU with Spain, Italy and Greece getting the worst of it, including all the nasty scare stories that the Leave lot use around youth unemployment and financial chaos in the EU.  A breakup of the Euro would probably be the best thing for the EU as it'd cause a massive market correction that'd hit Germany most but allow the other countries breathing space.

 

As long as Britain stays out of the Euro we'll get far more out of the EU than we put in, even if the other EU countries take the occasional big beating because of their financial experiments with the Euro.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Absolutely.

 

This point has been made a few times by a couple of the Vote Leave reps when interviewed.  Only the government can decide what the country will look like after 23 June, whether we remain in the EU or not.  The Leave camp can only describe what it would like the country to look like after 23 June and on that I think they have been very clear.

I don't see that "only the government can decide...."

What if the government wanted to rejoin the EU?

What if the government finds that it cannot decide what the country will look like, or make it be the way it wants it to be, when it finds that EU or not, its external factors that decide the future.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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It's not unfair at all. I have no expectation about what they will or won't do regarding domestic spending. What I do want and expect is a clear objective of what precisely "out" should look like. Unfortunately nothing at all has been forthcoming.

The two can't be separated though. Whatever problems or opportunities a leave vote brings are intrinsically linked to domestic spending. Let's face it nobody really knows what is going to happen whichever way the vote goes. Even a vote to remain comes with some uncertainty given the changing face of the EU.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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..and what happens to the metric system if we leave? Surely the Europhobes will demand an end to Napoleon's finest achievement.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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..and what happens to the metric system if we leave? Surely the Europhobes will demand an end to Napoleon's finest achievement.

I was brought up using imperial.  The industry I work in is dominated by an American company which until recently also used exclusively imperial. And yet all measurements I take are in mm, why?  Because it's easier to read, and it's more accurate.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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I was brought up using imperial.  The industry I work in is dominated by an American company which until recently also used exclusively imperial. And yet all measurements I take are in mm, why?  Because it's easier to read, and it's more accurate.

Countries that don't use the metric system:

metric-system.png


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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