Whitehaven in trouble , time for outside help in running club finances?

[Adelaide Tiger]

Why shouldn't I or anybody else on here "pop up"

 

By "Cumbrian club" did you mean to say Cumbrian Superleague club??

 

Please accept my humblest apologies for my 'popped up' comment.

My disagreement with you is that you seem to want to keep the staus quo and retain that position should the clubs die a slow lingering death. I see another option - which may or may not work - that I believe can give the area a fighting chance.

RL is not a sport it is a business and no business can ever succeed by relying solely on tradition. All successful businesses - including sports clubs - have to continually evolve and make decisions that may anger people in the short term but may prove beneficial in the long term.

Just a few pointers for people to think about:

1. Just who is opposed to a Cumbrian 'super' club? If the only people ever asked are existing club supporters then I understand the opposition. But what about the thousands of stayaway and/or armchair sports fans or people that have never attended a game but may want to see top class sport in the area.

2. Player pathway - maybe young players leave the game because their is no local pathway to a professiobal RL career. If existing clubs continued as feeders to an over arching Cumbrian 'super' club then more local players may stay in the game and the local club scene may increase.

3. New stadium - why cant a 'super' club use workington/ whitehaven grounds instead on an alternative basis all it takes is for the RFL to organise fixture planning.

4. Attendances - would 5-7,000 average attendance be a success?

5. Club relationships - if a Cumbrian 'super' club ever came into existence it HAS to have strong links to existing clubs, amatuer game and schools and ALL must work together to promote the game at all levels.

As you can see, I have used the word 'may' on occasions because I cannot guarantee the above may work but I believe it gives the better opportunity for the whole game in Cumbria.

[shaun mc]

Huge hook for Parky that one Adelaide.......     

[The Parksider]

They say no they don't want to play it because there's no future in the game; besides there's no money to do it, and these new schools will never produce any decent standard players so it's a complete waste of time

 

What "new schools" are you talking about? Cumbria does produce decent players, there are a handful of them in Superleague. What exactly is a waste of time?

 

Basically they might as well give up now because they're completely ######ed

 

Why would anybody "give up" as long as Cumbria has people who want to administer the game, put money into it there, and play and watch the game?

 

Why not actually do some research and some thinking, instead of the usual follow the crowd knee jerk reaction of blurting out "send the development officers into the schools" as though the current generation of Cumbrians haven't heard of Rugby League and aren't already playing in schools and playing in local junior clubs.

 

On the last thread on junior development Saint 1 pointed out to you that money for development officers is limited, and it's bad business to spend it in "Barnsley" or "Goole" where there is no interest at all in the game, when that resource can be better used in West Yorks and Lancs. 

 

Same for Cumbria, what money we have to professionally promote the game to kids is best spent in the areas where we have academies so that of those who take up the game through this promotion, they have strong junior amateur teams to play in and have professional academies to go through.

 

Cumbria closed their academy - look it up, or at least when pertinent facts are given on here listen.

[The Parksider]

Huge hook for Parky that one Adelaide.......   

 

Shaun. make your own points please, you don't make a very good coat hanger.

[The Parksider]

Please accept my humblest apologies for my 'popped up' comment.

My disagreement with you is that you seem to want to keep the staus quo and retain that position should the clubs die a slow lingering death.

 

I see another option - which may or may not work.

RL is not a sport it is a business. All successful businesses - including sports clubs - have to continually evolve and make decisions that may anger people in the short term but may prove beneficial in the long term.

1. Just who is opposed to a Cumbrian 'super' club? If the only people ever asked are existing club supporters then I understand the opposition. But what about the thousands of stayaway and/or armchair sports fans or people that have never attended a game but may want to see top class sport in the area.

2. Player pathway - maybe young players leave the game because their is no local pathway to a professiobal RL career. If existing clubs continued as feeders to an over arching Cumbrian 'super' club then more local players may stay in the game and the local club scene may increase.

3. New stadium - why cant a 'super' club use workington/ whitehaven grounds instead on an alternative basis all it takes is for the RFL to organise fixture planning.

4. Attendances - would 5-7,000 average attendance be a success?

5. Club relationships - if a Cumbrian 'super' club ever came into existence it HAS to have strong links to existing clubs, amatuer game and schools and ALL must work together to promote the game at all levels.

As you can see, I have used the word 'may' on occasions because I cannot guarantee the above may work but I believe it gives the better opportunity for the whole game in Cumbria.

 

Tiger, you mustn't apologise to me, it's enough to just have a civil conversation given some of the keyboard warriors nastiness on here.

 

I enjoyed your post and the  careful rider that your ideas "may not work".

 

1. On the idea of "thousands of stay away fans" I hope you have noted past discussions on the area in that it is thinly populated and travel distances are long within the county hence cumbrians on here discount the ability for any SL clubs to embrace Barrow or Carlisle. The RFL also ran a report on this with the same conclusions. See also point 4.

 

2. This issue was dealt with by the formation of the Cumbria Regional academy, which was formed to ensure that there was a local academy to facilitate the best juniors in the area. However travel distances were still massive for away games, and the academy (I believe) could not compete with the strong M62 clubs. it closed. I do not know all the problems this academy had but you can't assume that even if Cumbria had a much better junior set up (it's very thin) joining a losing academy facing long treks every other week would somehow be automatically attractive to players or parents

 

3. Yes of course you can play Superleague in an old and tired stadium with few facilities. They do this in Wakefield and Cas and as their chairmen will tell you, the stadia put off potential fans, and fail to capture income streams that are available in modern stadia. 

 

4. In the areas heyday a Cumbria County game was the big puller 5,000. Workington used to be on crowds in the hundreds in 1990, over a series of seasons the club found the money to grow and in 1994 they played top division and attracted 3,800 crowds. Those were the days when the "potential audience" and the local playing strength was much bigger than today.

 

They were relegated but bounced back onto the Superleague in 1996 and opened on 3,600 crowds. They had a poor season and crowds simply melted away to under 2,000. I just do not know with respect how today, after 20 years of decline, when many of that audience are of an advanced age or have passed away how you can estimate a 5,000 - 7,000 crowd.

 

5. Yes club relationships are disjointed and this is a key to some sort of improvement, but this was pointed out in a 2014 report and nobody has really managed to reverse this inertia.

 

Because this is the bottom line, you cannot waste valuable money on development officers trying to boost Cumbria when it is better spent along the M62, Cumbria has to sort itself out with guidance from the RFL of course, but this requires volunteers to do the hard work of administering the Cumbria Rugby League at a higher level of enthusiasm and effort it has now. Do we not think that if less people are bothered playing, there will be less people bothered administrating?? 

 

I think the above is a fair summary to fair points you make based on the realities of the situation, sensible corrections always welcome

[The Parksider]

Huge hook for Parky that one Adelaide.......   

 

Well I've said my piece Shaun, over to you.......

[Davo5]

Well I've said my piece Shaun, over to you.......

So Town were relegated from the top division after the 94 season but bounced back up in 96,Hmm was that 1894 and 1896 because it certainly wasn't 1994/96

[shaun mc]

Well I've said my piece Shaun, over to you.......

 

Go on then...........

 

Other factors that I'd add are

 

There is a level of apathy (maybe not the right word, but we'll see) across the game in Cumbria.

 

There has never been a sustained level of development officer input, the funding has gone up and down or become non-existent, which has impacted and hasn't helped overall. And some schools still do not play Rugby League. My nephews school for example, its never played League

 

There is a level of anti-Super League among the RL population - you only have to look at the posts on the Town and Haven forum, (as well as other Championship clubs).

 

Yet there are numbers of people (sorry don't have the research or whether it exists) who only go to Wigan or Saints a couple of times per year and the rest of the season their RL consists of Sky at the pub or at home. I know these examples personally.

On the back of this there are kids who probably ignore the semi-pro club as they only know SL. Some kids teams from Cumbria play as the half-time entertainment, yet there is little of this at the semi-pro clubs. Kids get into the SL/Wigan/Leeds brands from playing on the big stage and not their local teams

 

Workington and Whitehaven have both been declared community club of the year in recent years, (Town more than once). You have to ask why that hasn't transferred itself into the amateur game or to the semi-pro clubs. Yet only the summer before last Town hosted a 'schools Olympics' - there were 6,000 - 7,000 people there counting kids, spectators, teachers, parents and volunteers. (There was a thread on this board about this at the time). Yet the club can't get more than a 1,000 to a Championship game

 

Current social trends in Cumbria are no different to that across the M62 - a stag do or christening is far more important than playing rugby.

 

The impact of DR and importing travellers into the semi-pro sides of the past few seasons has resulted in players being lost to their semi-pro clubs forever. The Cumbrian lads remain mainly squad players and with no reserves, they aren't playing rugby. It impacts their rugby development. Many are now much happier at Wath Brow, Egremont, etc and want nothing to do with the semi-pro game anymore.

 

To be fair both semi-pro clubs will increase the proportion of locals in their squads in 2017. That may take steps to re-engage the wider RL community in Cumbria.

Town now have more Board members, and includes a good lad who is now doing the communication and PR and is already engaging with fans in a way that hasn't been seen for a few years.

 

Cumbria Storm - happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the Academy was 'taken over' by Widnes and the West Cumbria sides couldn't run the squad. Not all the best Academy players were in the squad. Not all the lads wanted to play under the way that Widnes wanted to run the squad. An Academy run by a SL club is just perceived as a talent spotting exercise by that SL club, without being there to develop and coach the best Cumbria RL youngsters for the long term. If anyone has the information I'd like to know what those lads are doing now. I'd bet some have been lost to the sport altogether. The game in Cumbria can't afford to lose any more players any more.

[yipyee]

First off if Cumbria had half the help and money the likes of London,wales France etc have had over the years ,there would now be a flourishing SL club with town and haven as feeders.

We have there different leagues with 3 different formats ....which other sport has this .

You need a solid base at amateurs and professionals level.Make sure these a solid and financial viable before pushing the expansion route.

My prediction is once Toronto and Toulouse are in SL ,P and R( I call it that though isnt) will be no more again,until some other far flung teams decide they fancy it

Wales London and France have found their own funding.

They have created pathways and worked together to achieve goals.

What has Cumbria done?

Had every positive step been voted against and destroyed before it started?

The fact Cumbria draws crowds when Cumbria are playing is proof that a brand identity is there.

It just needs a buisness focus to get it off the ground.

Unfortunately however liecensensing would need to return for this to happen!

[The Parksider]

So Town were relegated from the top division after the 94 season but bounced back up in 96,Hmm was that 1894 and 1896 because it certainly wasn't 1994/96

 

Well corrections always welcome but that's no correction, just sarcasm.

 

So I've re-checked it for you and yes Rothmans lists Workington coming 9th. in the top division 1994/5 and they were listed as having crowds of 3,776. 1996 they were also in the top division and they came bottom on 2,322.

 

So no relegation your right, but certainly it's true that even then a Workington Town that could compete in the top division could not bust 4,000, and one that could not compete in SL only got 2,322 crowds, so that's my point about how can Tiger estimate 5-7,000 today if Town were in SL today??

 

Your thoughts??

[The Parksider]

Go on then...........

 

Other factors that I'd add are

 

There is a level of apathy (maybe not the right word, but we'll see) across the game in Cumbria.

 

There has never been a sustained level of development officer input, the funding has gone up and down or become non-existent, which has impacted and hasn't helped overall. And some schools still do not play Rugby League. My nephews school for example, its never played League

 

There is a level of anti-Super League among the RL population - you only have to look at the posts on the Town and Haven forum, (as well as other Championship clubs).

 

Yet there are numbers of people (sorry don't have the research or whether it exists) who only go to Wigan or Saints a couple of times per year and the rest of the season their RL consists of Sky at the pub or at home. I know these examples personally.

On the back of this there are kids who probably ignore the semi-pro club as they only know SL. Some kids teams from Cumbria play as the half-time entertainment, yet there is little of this at the semi-pro clubs. Kids get into the SL/Wigan/Leeds brands from playing on the big stage and not their local teams

 

Workington and Whitehaven have both been declared community club of the year in recent years, (Town more than once). You have to ask why that hasn't transferred itself into the amateur game or to the semi-pro clubs. Yet only the summer before last Town hosted a 'schools Olympics' - there were 6,000 - 7,000 people there counting kids, spectators, teachers, parents and volunteers. (There was a thread on this board about this at the time). Yet the club can't get more than a 1,000 to a Championship game

 

Current social trends in Cumbria are no different to that across the M62 - a stag do or christening is far more important than playing rugby.

 

The impact of DR and importing travellers into the semi-pro sides of the past few seasons has resulted in players being lost to their semi-pro clubs forever. The Cumbrian lads remain mainly squad players and with no reserves, they aren't playing rugby. It impacts their rugby development. Many are now much happier at Wath Brow, Egremont, etc and want nothing to do with the semi-pro game anymore.

 

To be fair both semi-pro clubs will increase the proportion of locals in their squads in 2017. That may take steps to re-engage the wider RL community in Cumbria.

Town now have more Board members, and includes a good lad who is now doing the communication and PR and is already engaging with fans in a way that hasn't been seen for a few years.

 

Cumbria Storm - happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the Academy was 'taken over' by Widnes and the West Cumbria sides couldn't run the squad. Not all the best Academy players were in the squad. Not all the lads wanted to play under the way that Widnes wanted to run the squad. An Academy run by a SL club is just perceived as a talent spotting exercise by that SL club, without being there to develop and coach the best Cumbria RL youngsters for the long term. If anyone has the information I'd like to know what those lads are doing now. I'd bet some have been lost to the sport altogether. The game in Cumbria can't afford to lose any more players any more.

 

Many thanks for that Shaun, the thinness of the Junior game is on the Cumbria RL website where the age ranges are doubled up to make (small) leagues and even then they don't all fulfill their fixtures. We can both list the myriad of problems all day but solutions are hard to find.

[The Parksider]

What has Cumbria done?

Had every positive step been voted against and destroyed before it started?

The fact Cumbria draws crowds when Cumbria are playing is proof that a brand identity is there.

It just needs a buisness focus to get it off the ground.

Unfortunately however liecensensing would need to return for this to happen!

 

it could be that the current situation is nobody has a vision left for the game that can get it off the ground, and who has the will and drive to see it forward.

 

In terms of "Cumbria Superleague" the only business model that will work is the Koukash/Davey/ O'Connor/Hudgell/Fulton model where large amounts of money are annually gifted to keep any Cumbria SL club afloat.

 

Even then Cumbria as you say needs to make a case to be one of the top 12 applications to SL.

 

The Superleague has just dumped Bradford and London, and efforts are being made to welcome the money Toulouse and Toronto are promising to bring. SL cumbria is a pipe dream.

 

But if it can be a "brand" that can see the local game re-built around it, with the goal of being a regular top Championship club operating with home grown players then maybe that's an idea?

 

But I feel I'm clutching at straws in an attempt to be positive.

[Derwent]

Let it go Parky. The game up here is dying a slow death and it's pretty much irreversible. There's fewer and fewer kids playing the game, and the fan bases at both clubs is ageing and you don't see many kids at the games. Eventually the amateur clubs will close due to lack of players and the pro clubs due to lack of fans. It's like a conveyor belt where you get on one end while you're young and drop off the other when you get older. Unfortunately there are more dropping off than are getting on at the other end, so eventually the lack of numbers will dictate the demise. No point looking for solutions because there isn't one bar somebody handing over tens of millions. C'est la vie.

[audois]

I thought there was an upsurge in interest in Barrow of late. More youngsters involved since some time. Four figure gates not bad for 3rd tier. BBC Radio Cumbria fantastic for the code - far better coverage than most further south.

[Adelaide Tiger]

Well corrections always welcome but that's no correction, just sarcasm.

So I've re-checked it for you and yes Rothmans lists Workington coming 9th. in the top division 1994/5 and they were listed as having crowds of 3,776. 1996 they were also in the top division and they came bottom on 2,322.

So no relegation your right, but certainly it's true that even then a Workington Town that could compete in the top division could not bust 4,000, and one that could not compete in SL only got 2,322 crowds, so that's my point about how can Tiger estimate 5-7,000 today if Town were in SL today??

Your thoughts??

Please note that I said 'Would an average of 5,000 - 7,000 be considered a success?'.

Anyway semantics aside. I think it is too simplistic to guesstimate an average attendance solely based on Workys and Havens average for the last few seasons then divide that by 50% for disaffected supporters.

My rationale is based on the assumption that:

1. Some current Worky/Havens fans will watch a Cumbria representative team IF their own club survives in the Championship or CL1 and is used as a stepping stone for more talented local players. If 50% of regular supporters attend games then you start of with around 1,200 or so.

2. In the past 10 years or so a representative Cumbrian team has attracted 5,000 crowds so the appetite is there to watch top class sport. Where are these supporters week in, week out? Is it because they are attracted to quality entertainment and not lower level RL.

3. There is no top class sport in the area for the armchair or the stay away RL follower to go and watch. That is why comparison with Town/Haven average attendance playing in CL1 or Championship is flawed.

4. A Cumbrian team will need investment to create links to local schools and local teams to encourage youngsters to watch top class RL players and teams. Do Town/Haven do this? And if so does the likes of Rochdale, Okdham and Swinton excite the youngsters?

5. I would reasonably argue that the higher profile players and teams from Wigan, Leeds, Wire, Saints etc. would attract the floating supporter to attend on a more regular basis than Rochdale, Swinton or Oldham. Plus you would get an increase in away supporters.

6. A well funded Cumbrian super club would have access to greater investment and can promote their team at a greater level than Town/Haven.

7. Accirding to Council populations the areas of Allerdale and Copeland have a joint population of around 170k.

So my guesstimate is based on numerous factors not just simply looking at Existing clubs average attendance.

[The Parksider]

Please note that I said 'Would an average of 5,000 - 7,000 be considered a success?'.

My rationale is based on the assumption that:

1.  If 50% of regular supporters attend games then you start of with around 1,200 or so.

2. In the past 10 years or so a representative Cumbrian team has attracted 5,000 crowds so the appetite is there to watch top class sport. 

3.  A Cumbrian team will need investment to create links to local schools and local teams to encourage youngsters to watch top class RL players and teams. Do Town/Haven do this? And if so does the likes of Rochdale, Okdham and Swinton excite the youngsters?

5. I would reasonably argue that the higher profile players and teams from Wigan, Leeds, Wire, Saints etc. would attract the floating supporter to attend on a more regular basis than Rochdale, Swinton or Oldham. Plus you would get an increase in away supporters.

6. A well funded Cumbrian super club would have access to greater investment and can promote their team at a greater level than Town/Haven.

7. Accirding to Council populations the areas of Allerdale and Copeland have a joint population of around 170k.

So my guesstimate is based on numerous factors not just simply looking at Existing clubs average attendance.

 

1. That figure is 850, miles off the figures needed i.e. 10,000 if you have no rich man. Bulls went bust on 8,000

 

2. The appetite was there to watch a one off rep game.

 

3. What do you mean by "encourage" kids, Championship crowds have a high average age and there are few kids, I know because I go. It's an old mans game.

 

5. Why do you ignore my facts, In SL Workington  got 2,200 and that was 20 years ago.

 

Yes Saints boosted the crowd to 3,600 and Wigan 3,200 these were still loss making crowds. Your not making a "reasonable argument"

 

6. We are not talking about a "well funded club" are we? Where is this increased funding coming from.

 

There is zero rationale in this point, they have no rich owner, few fans, no great local playing set up, no great commercial backing - where do you get "well funded" from?

 

7.Are you really suggesting 170,000 people in an area that is fading away can support an adequate Superleague crowd?  One in 17 people would go watch a struggling Cumbria RL club? Only 5.000 ever went to the rep games when the game was far more popular up there.

 

As is the nature of this board you will probably concede nothing, even the hard facts above and the over riding fact that there is no money and fading interest, and both clubs have/will will have their heads stood on by the big boys of Toulouse and Toronto even if they got to the gates of SL it is an exclusive club, it allows only 12 members.

 

A Cumbria club claiming they could get 5,000 crowds in SL in an old ground would be well down that clubs waiting list. 

[Saint Toppy]

Its interesting that people are using the Cumbrian' team's crowds from 20 years ago as a reason for them not to be considered as a future SL club. Their crowds back then were more than Salford get now and Huddersfield regularly get sub 5K crowds. The only difference between these 2 clubs and the Cumbrian clubs is a rich owner.

 

Parky and others are also saying how SL dumped Bradford. They didn't dump them, the clubs owner got themselves into a mess with mismanagement. The system didn't screw up the Bulls, their incompetent owners did. 

[The Parksider]

Let it go Parky. The game up here is dying a slow death and it's pretty much irreversible. There's fewer and fewer kids playing the game, and the fan bases at both clubs is ageing and you don't see many kids at the games. Eventually the amateur clubs will close due to lack of players and the pro clubs due to lack of fans. It's like a conveyor belt where you get on one end while you're young and drop off the other when you get older. Unfortunately there are more dropping off than are getting on at the other end, so eventually the lack of numbers will dictate the demise. No point looking for solutions because there isn't one bar somebody handing over tens of millions. C'est la vie.

 

Me let it go??

 

Sorry mate but as someone posted not long ago, he didn't come on here much because it's mainly fantasy stuff. I like a chat about RL coz I love the game so 21,000 posts later I remain addicted. Cue derision at so many posts, but 19,000 of them must be putting people straight on the facts often repeated scores of times over, for example people continuing to tell you and me that Cumbria is a "Hot Bed" of Rugby League.

 

Add that to the more marketing a club/RFL does the more fans it gets until stadia are sold out, the more times England play internationals the more people take up playing and watching RL, all you need to spread the game is development officers in every town. Barnsley set to be the next "Hot Bed"

 

All you need in Cumbria is a merger and to sell it to the kids, (and presumably sell the idea to 12 Superleague clubs....... oblivious to official RFL reports it's a non-starter).

 

ANYWAY

 

I think people are slowly managing to absorb the realities, even in this thread. The concensus of opinion includes the need to have a Superleague club in Cumbria to rescue the game and bring back growth in the playing and supporting of the game in the county.

 

This is absolutely true.

 

How you get one is the fantasy, but at least this forum is getting away from the idea that the future of the game lies in "grassroots development", and that for every £Pound invested you automatically get £2 back.

 

How such a club if it did appear can survive playing at Superleague level is ignored, but again at least we seem to be getting to a concensus that if we want a strong game Superleague is the vehicle for that, the only fact we then need to grasp is there are only 12 spaces so the 12 biggest clubs need those spots.

 

And wherever clubs do not get those spots there is decline across the board. So it's a sin to take SKY money off Superleague to waste it in the Championships.

 

This was another fantasy thread of late launched by Leigh fans and disaffected CC fans who argued it was good as it would give growth, but in reality they just didn't like like Mr, Lenegan or were jealous of SL. They should know the consequences of doing that and you can see it in Cumbria.

[The Parksider]

1. Its interesting that people are using the Cumbrian' team's crowds from 20 years ago as a reason for them not to be considered as a future SL club. Their crowds back then were more than Salford get now and Huddersfield regularly get sub 5K crowds. The only difference between these 2 clubs and the Cumbrian clubs is a rich owner.

 

2. Parky and others are also saying how SL dumped Bradford. They didn't dump them, the clubs owner got themselves into a mess with mismanagement. The system didn't screw up the Bulls, their incompetent owners did. 

 

1. Yes your right that Salford and Huddersfield have rich owners and low crowds, one can argue they have the stadia, but I'm happy to concede that RL would not be a worse place without either of them in it.

 

2. But you can't have it both ways, you can't argue that rich owners are needed to prop up SL clubs and then argue Bradford's problem was mis-management.

 

Their problem was no rich owner.  

 

Well they darn well have one now and so if you were choosing without bias between Bradford or Cumbria for a Superleague place today which one would you go for??

[Saint Toppy]

 

Well they darn well have one now and so if you were choosing without bias between Bradford or Cumbria for a Superleague place today which one would you go for??

As they are now as small individual Cumbrian clubs, Bradford. But, if there were ever to be a 'combined' Cumbrian team with financial backing then for me it would be Cumbria all the way. The juniors around the Bradford area wouldn't be lost to the game as they'd still get snapped up by one of the other local West Yorkshire teams like Leeds, Huddersfield, Cas or Wakey. It takes a hell of a lot of time, effort and dedication (for the families) for a Cumbrian youngster to join a SL club as a junior due to the travel involved every week.

[Adelaide Tiger]

1. That figure is 850, miles off the figures needed i.e. 10,000 if you have no rich man. Bulls went bust on 8,000

 

2. The appetite was there to watch a one off rep game.

 

3. What do you mean by "encourage" kids, Championship crowds have a high average age and there are few kids, I know because I go. It's an old mans game.

 

5. Why do you ignore my facts, In SL Workington  got 2,200 and that was 20 years ago.

 

Yes Saints boosted the crowd to 3,600 and Wigan 3,200 these were still loss making crowds. Your not making a "reasonable argument"

 

6. We are not talking about a "well funded club" are we? Where is this increased funding coming from.

 

There is zero rationale in this point, they have no rich owner, few fans, no great local playing set up, no great commercial backing - where do you get "well funded" from?

 

7.Are you really suggesting 170,000 people in an area that is fading away can support an adequate Superleague crowd?  One in 17 people would go watch a struggling Cumbria RL club? Only 5.000 ever went to the rep games when the game was far more popular up there.

 

As is the nature of this board you will probably concede nothing, even the hard facts above and the over riding fact that there is no money and fading interest, and both clubs have/will will have their heads stood on by the big boys of Toulouse and Toronto even if they got to the gates of SL it is an exclusive club, it allows only 12 members.

 

A Cumbria club claiming they could get 5,000 crowds in SL in an old ground would be well down that clubs waiting list.

Thanks for the response.

You are right that I will not concede anything because it is blindingly obvious that we are looking at this issue from totally different viewpoints as I will demonstrate.

Your viewpoint is based upon relating your argument to past events - 1996 - and to retain tradition at all costs whilst my view is that the game in Cumbria needs to look to a different model to enable RL to flourish.

My interpretation is that your view is primarily based on:

Figures from Workingtons relegation season of 1996 ergo if Town falied then all other Cumbrian based clubs will fail in the future

Forgetting That SL was a new concept and clubs like Workington were a semi pro team the year or so before and most probably some of the players in the 1996 team were still semi pro

Not acknowledging that the average attendance that year reflected the bottom place finish

Your have a belief that no club - or even a newly created Cumbrian super club can beat Workingtons attendance of the 1996 season

Remember you are talking about one club in a town with a poplulation of 25,000

Only Bradford had embraced and capitalised on summer rugby. The Town board were probably like other boards and had little idea, or finances to attract businesses th older and younger fans.

My view is based on:

A new model with a 'super' club that sits above and works closely with existing clubs

Has a population area 7 times bigger - 170,000 than just Workington itself i.e. Allerdale and Copeland

A new professional club may enciurage young talent to stay in the game and give them a pathway to be full time professionals in their locality

Of course a new club will need to attract new Board Members and greater finance and there may be people that want to be part of a full time professional operation rather than a semi pro set up

A regional named team 'Cumbria' may be able to open up greater sponsorship opportunities than existing semi pro teams

Stadiums already exist for ground share - a new club can always look towards a new stadium in later years

The SL funding is greater than 20 years ago and equates roughly to the salary cap

I respect your views but I fail to see how your argument can positively impact upon the game in Cumbria.

[The Parksider]

As they are now as small individual Cumbrian clubs, Bradford. But, if there were ever to be a 'combined' Cumbrian team with financial backing then for me it would be Cumbria all the way. The juniors around the Bradford area wouldn't be lost to the game as they'd still get snapped up by one of the other local West Yorkshire teams like Leeds, Huddersfield, Cas or Wakey. It takes a hell of a lot of time, effort and dedication (for the families) for a Cumbrian youngster to join a SL club as a junior due to the travel involved every week.

 

That's not too bad a point when you narrow it down to just the junior development, just how far playing SL in Cumbria will revitalise the junior game I don't know, you assume the trend is fully reversible. That the Bulls are probably good for 10,000 more fans than Cumbria, with more attending away games at other grounds is maybe something you'd consider, but in the world of the rich man your club does not need fans. As we see with Salford where you really can find mega "Mismanagement" they "did" not need them,

 

So maybe one day Cumbria will find a very rich backer and you can get behind their rise to the top. Then maybe when that backer leaves, or gets fed up of putting the money in like the two men at Salford, your house of cards will collapse?

 

Yes if we had rich backers for clubs with endlessly bottomless pockets who never got fed up and never died, then like you I'd put Cumbria in SL, I'd also put Cardiff, Glasgow, London north and London South, Birmingham, Newcastle, Dublin and Paris in SL along with Wigan, Leeds and Hull, 

 

There would be no need to put Saints in there, Wigan would have Lancashire covered.

[The Parksider]

As they are now as small individual Cumbrian clubs, Bradford. But, if there were ever to be a 'combined' Cumbrian team 

 

It's a 15 minute car ride from small individual Workington to Small individual Whitehaven.

 

Outside that it's a very long journey down to Barrow who have their own club or up to soccer town Carlisle to find other centres of population. These two towns are small towns with populations of 24,000. The popular holiday destination of Kendal is bigger. but hardly steeped in RL history

 

How does putting two tiny clubs together make a big club? If Whitehaven and Workington were pushed together to make one "Town" Leigh would still be bigger?

 

Very small club + very small club = small club.

[The Parksider]

My view is based on:

A new model with a 'super' club that sits above and works closely with existing clubs

Has a population area 7 times bigger - 170,000 than just Workington itself i.e. Allerdale and Copeland

 

Well the combined population of Manchester, Trafford and Salford is heading for 1,000,000.

 

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-population-continues-soar-9525200

 

Salford manage to attract 1 in 250 of them to their Superleague games.

 

If "Cumbria" managed to attract this ratio they'd get 800. About right

 

Would you apply your logic to say Salford merging with Swinton, Oldham and Rochdale and rebranding themselves "Manchester"??

[Saint Toppy]

It's a 15 minute car ride from small individual Workington to Small individual Whitehaven.

I'm aware of the travelling times around Cumbria I lived in Penrith for 6 years. I went to a few games at Workington and it took me little over Half an hour. Somewhere like Lillyhall would be a good location to draw on the 4 main conurbations of Workington, Whitehaven, Penrith and Keswick.

Your right about Barrow though, it's in the back end of nowhere with 1 road in and out