Hemel Stags

[The Parksider]

Just now, DEANO said:

Definitely fev and only a few others who I can't remember 

Ah that must have been the old Championship academy.

Which junior club did Minikin come from? Was he RU??

[DEANO]

Just now, The Parksider said:

Ah that must have been the old Championship academy.

Which junior club did Minikin come from? Was he RU??

Don't know that far back

[bowes]

17 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Which league did they play in Deano? who were the other teams in that league?

It was an U23 league that had about six teams in, but they changed it to U20 for a few years and then it kind of disappeared

[Yorkie44]

Re: York's youth set up / Academy etc. Loads of lads came through it, Lineham (RU and York College), Brinning (Scarborough), Minnikin (Wetherby). Also numerous players now playing at the Knights, current captain Ed Smith (Acorn), Ben Dent (Lokos), Adam Dent, Harry Carter (Wakefield area), Tyler Craig who is now at Newcastle (Heworth). Probably some more too.

There is loads of kids that go to SL and other Champ academies from York though, but when they don't 'make it' some come back others just give up on the game or go back to amateur. 

York have plans to set up a youth team once again because there is a plethora of talent in York and North Yorkshire that needs nurturing and given the chance of showing what they can do before they are lost to the game or never picked up, the club I think recognises this and are trying to do something about it.

i could probably also name at least a team of York lads who have played elsewhere who could more than hold their own in League 1. 

[yipyee]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Yes it's a fact that the Super League clubs have scouts and academies and they look all over for players. That leaves the Championship clubs basically feeding off the SL clubs for players. Of course there are times CC clubs may be able to find a talent not picked up by SL.

Walmsely and Hardaker are outstanding examples of the exceptions. But they don't prove the part time championship clubs have player development systems. And of course once these lads pop up at Fev or Batley they are whisked off anyway.

It's the NCL clubs that have the player development systems BSJ you should know that as you know the magnificent Dewsbury ARL area.

How did they find and develop walmsley and hardaker as you quote if they dont scout and develop?

 

You mention NCL clubs develop players...however the better of these are whisked away as well...

 

Your points are contradictions good sir...

[henage]

54 minutes ago, Yorkie44 said:

Re: York's youth set up / Academy etc. Loads of lads came through it, Lineham (RU and York College), Brinning (Scarborough), Minnikin (Wetherby). Also numerous players now playing at the Knights, current captain Ed Smith (Acorn), Ben Dent (Lokos), Adam Dent, Harry Carter (Wakefield area), Tyler Craig who is now at Newcastle (Heworth). Probably some more too.

There is loads of kids that go to SL and other Champ academies from York though, but when they don't 'make it' some come back others just give up on the game or go back to amateur. 

York have plans to set up a youth team once again because there is a plethora of talent in York and North Yorkshire that needs nurturing and given the chance of showing what they can do before they are lost to the game or never picked up, the club I think recognises this and are trying to do something about it.

i could probably also name at least a team of York lads who have played elsewhere who could more than hold their own in League 1. 

Adam Dent played youth rugby and some open age for Holderness Vikings . Ben played a few games for Vikings .

[Yorkie44]

9 minutes ago, henage said:

Adam Dent played youth rugby and some open age for Holderness Vikings . Ben played a few games for Vikings .

Yep wasn't sure where Adam played, I knew they lived over Hull somewhere. Ben may have played a few games there too, but he did 2 years at Lokos and Around 1 at NEAB, never the less he came through the York Knights youth system is what I was trying to say. As it was said none SL teams don't produce their own talent, evidently York do.

[The Parksider]

48 minutes ago, Yorkie44 said:

 As it was said none SL teams don't produce their own talent, evidently York do.

 

No, they did for a short while when aspiring Championship clubs looking at SL were trying to get up to scratch by starting academy type youth teams. It was the case nearly all clubs used to do this, in the past York and Hunslet will have run juniors and intermediates. for decades post war......

Of course the new clubs in the championship do have junior and youth teams like Hemel and Coventry.But I don't think the Batleys and Dewsburys do, nor do the Yorks anymore.

In fact it's a dubious claim they ever did as no doubt the players they mainly ran with were actually produced by York Acorn and Heworth

This all came about because someone got huffy at the idea his club didn't produce players, they just don't have to and don't need to when that club Dewsbury, have places like Dewsbury Moor, Thornhill and Shaw Cross on their doorstep. York equally don't have to or need to when the NCL clubs do this.

My point was these are the clubs who produce the players, now you and others going off at a tangent tell me they don't?

Over to you.

[DoubleD]

So if the likes of Batley and Dewsbury are receiving RFL funds and don't have junior and youth setups, surely they should be removed from the professional game rather than the likes of Hemel and Oxford

[The Parksider]

1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

So if the likes of Batley and Dewsbury are receiving RFL funds and don't have junior and youth setups, surely they should be removed from the professional game rather than the likes of Hemel and Oxford

 

It seems logical in a sense but.......

Professional clubs in the north are generally not allowed to run junior teams only academies, and they draw their players from local ARL junior teams. If Dewsbury and Batley opened academies they would decimate the junior game and would only have players available to them the SL clubs don't want.

So they don't do it. But in development areas the clubs have to do this if there isn't much of a junior game. So Coventry and Hemel will and should do this as long as they are allowed to play in Championship one.

If however Coventry got a £Millionaire and opened an SL club I would guess they would run an academy, and a foundation to encourage the local junior game.

Even Leeds and Wigan aren't allowed to run junior teams

This all came about because I said NCL clubs were very valuable to the game because of their fabulous junior set ups that deliver the players to the pro game.

Is that wrong?

 

 

 

[The Parksider]

15 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

So if the likes of Batley and Dewsbury are receiving RFL funds and don't have junior and youth setups.....

 

They don't need to have junior set ups as above. 

They don't need to have a load of SKY money either.

They have done very well as semi pro championship clubs without SKY money for many years,

The money they were given (if people would just like to remember) was to encourage them to professionalise and push for SL.

Both Halifax and Fev declined to professionalise but kept the money, Sheffield went pro and went bust.

The championships are a mess with all the meddling the RFL have done, that's my actual point.

Back to the Op and my view it's such a mess we will never get Hemel up to Dewsbury's standards. So for me the Championship has to consolidate and go back semi pro for a proper competition.

[DoubleD]

So my post was that good, you responded to it twice Parksider? Well I suppose you have to keep these threads going somehow........

Well I'm glad you're not in charge of the structure of the leagues and no doubt the Chairmen of Dewsbury and Batley are too because they would not be able to cope without the central funding that you propose to takeaway from these clubs. Even if they don't develop the game by investing in youth setups. 

And academies are by their very nature junior teams

[yipyee]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

They don't need to have junior set ups as above. 

They don't need to have a load of SKY money either.

They have done very well as semi pro championship clubs without SKY money for many years,

The money they were given (if people would just like to remember) was to encourage them to professionalise and push for SL.

Both Halifax and Fev declined to professionalise but kept the money, Sheffield went pro and went bust.

The championships are a mess with all the meddling the RFL have done, that's my actual point.

Back to the Op and my view it's such a mess we will never get Hemel up to Dewsbury's standards. So for me the Championship has to consolidate and go back semi pro for a proper competition.

Sheffield went bust due to their millionaire backer pulling out due to a disagreement with the council over planning permission...

This is a model you champion? Having millionaire owners?

 

Hemel could be upto dewsburys standards if dewsbury had to develop their own players and DR was abolished...

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 

This all came about because someone got huffy at the idea his club didn't produce players, they just don't have to and don't need to when that club Dewsbury, have places like Dewsbury Moor, Thornhill and Shaw Cross on their doorstep. York equally don't have to or need to when the NCL clubs do this.

 

"Argue the point not the person" you are fond of quoting. I would say that you are letting your standards slip but you are simply maintaining them Parky.

To add some facts to your diatribes my club Dewsbury, who you like to denigrate, ran their own second team for two seasons, providing opportunities for development for 20 - 30 players from the local area. This ended part way through last season as clubs began to remove their teams from the competition one by one meaning that there was no prospect of providing them with games on a regular basis. This is a failing of the structure, in my view, rather than of the individual Championship (not CC by the way) clubs.

[bowes]

2 hours ago, yipyee said:

Sheffield went bust due to their millionaire backer pulling out due to a disagreement with the council over planning permission...

This is a model you champion? Having millionaire owners?

 

Hemel could be upto dewsburys standards if dewsbury had to develop their own players and DR was abolished...

How could Dewsbury reserves ever be the same standard as their first team?

[Yorkie44]

5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

No, they did for a short while when aspiring Championship clubs looking at SL were trying to get up to scratch by starting academy type youth teams. It was the case nearly all clubs used to do this, in the past York and Hunslet will have run juniors and intermediates. for decades post war......

Of course the new clubs in the championship do have junior and youth teams like Hemel and Coventry.But I don't think the Batleys and Dewsburys do, nor do the Yorks anymore.

In fact it's a dubious claim they ever did as no doubt the players they mainly ran with were actually produced by York Acorn and Heworth

This all came about because someone got huffy at the idea his club didn't produce players, they just don't have to and don't need to when that club Dewsbury, have places like Dewsbury Moor, Thornhill and Shaw Cross on their doorstep. York equally don't have to or need to when the NCL clubs do this.

My point was these are the clubs who produce the players, now you and others going off at a tangent tell me they don't?

Over to you.

Well if that's the case you're arguing no one develops their own juniors, bar a couple of the newer teams. Of course all the teams use the ameteur clubs (not just NCL by the way) around the country to source their players for academy etc, where the hell else are they going to get them?! 

York and others have and will again produce their own players* with the help of amateur clubs as they don't run juniors from 7s-16s. 

 

*meaning they'll come through their academy^ and skolarship^ which will hopefully be back in place soon.

 

^or whatsoever they choose to call them.

[yipyee]

2 hours ago, bowes said:

How could Dewsbury reserves ever be the same standard as their first team?

Firstly this has ended up this way as its not a level playing field. 

Secondly parky says ncl teams are stronger than expansion sides...well how does he explain todays results in the cup?

Finally ge says organic growth is a myth but i would say look at gag and newcastle...

[The Parksider]

13 hours ago, Yorkie44 said:

Well if that's the case you're arguing no one develops their own juniors, bar a couple of the newer teams. Of course all the teams use the ameteur clubs (not just NCL by the way) around the country to source their players for academy etc, where the hell else are they going to get them?! 

2

So the amateur clubs don't attract the Kids in the first place

The amateur clubs don't train them and teach them the game

The amateur clubs don't provide then games to play year on year

The amateur clubs don't develop these players as the grow up

What a laughable argument by a York fan who wants to credit his pro side with "developing" their own local players.

Clubs like Hull and Cas provide your players......

[Yorkie44]

38 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

So the amateur clubs don't attract the Kids in the first place

The amateur clubs don't train them and teach them the game

The amateur clubs don't provide then games to play year on year

The amateur clubs don't develop these players as the grow up

What a laughable argument by a York fan who wants to credit his pro side with "developing" their own local players.

Clubs like Hull and Cas provide your players......

And who develops them for Hull and Cas?

I said it's the amateur clubs that develop them, so I'm not sure what you're talking on about? It's just the youth set ups at pro / semi pro clubs which bring them on.  

York have brought plenty through (that started at amateur, so you can calm down before you start) without the help of others.

Also I don't support York, I'm from here and like to see them do well.

 

 

[The Parksider]

56 minutes ago, Yorkie44 said:

York have brought plenty through (that started at amateur)

 

So the amateurs are the source of the players, pleased we agree.

Well done Heworth and York Acorn etc....

[Yorkie44]

4 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

So the amateurs are the source of the players, pleased we agree.

Well done Heworth and York Acorn etc....

If you agree why are you saying SL clubs develop their own players?

[The Parksider]

35 minutes ago, Yorkie44 said:

If you agree why are you saying SL clubs develop their own players?

They run foundations to back the local amateur clubs by introducing the game to as many kids as possible, look up the work of the SL club foundations. They then take kids on scholarships at 16 and they put them through the academies, so the amateur game and pro game are hand in hand on development.

York City Knights and Dewsbury Rams do not do this.

York may have once started an academy team with Fev, Fax etc but as I say that was with a view to meeting the standards to get an SL place. They do not run these things now.

[The Parksider]

18 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

To add some facts to your diatribes my club Dewsbury, who you like to denigrate,

 

I don't denegrate anyone, Dewsbury are an important club and should be allowed to compete on an even keel in a semi-pro championship for my money.

[The Parksider]

20 hours ago, yipyee said:

1) Hemel could be up to dewsburys standards 

1

Hooray back on topic

1) How and when?

Playing standards and crowds were very poor at the start and have been dropping since then.Have we ever seen a club struggle so badly as poor Hemel?

2) Weren't Hemel one of the leading southern amateur clubs not long ago, a vibrant club building RL in the town and being a source of Players for London Broncos?

Why the wishful thinking, and the assurances of "organic growth"?

Why would it not be a good idea for them to go back to what they used to do supremely well and develop RL in the south?

[bowes]

11 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Hooray back on topic

1) How and when?

Playing standards and crowds were very poor at the start and have been dropping since then.Have we ever seen a club struggle so badly as poor Hemel?

 

Southend Invicta are the only pro club comparatively bad in modern times. There were probably worse pro clubs pre WW2