Reserves competition - a disgrace all round.

[The Parksider]

4 hours ago, The Future is League said:

No academy = no Super League place for me. Its nice and simple for the clubs to understand

 

Well it's not as simple as that. Let's take Hull/HKR. After a long run with two academies it was decided one academy would be more effective for some very good reasons. 

That included ensuring they put out one, more talented side with the best coaches, rather than two watered down sides. You want to make them reverse that principle for some sort of "ideal" you have.

Well the coaches and administrators in Hull do not agree quantity is better than quality.

What you also miss as regards Salford is Salford are well financed and Wakefield are skint yet have an academy. SL membership should not rest on an academy for some sort of "ideal".

I'm all for a reserves comp but not for making every club toe this line.

[Lowdesert]

22 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

Your the one starting a thread demanding all SL clubs run reserves.

So you need to consider the counter argument that there isn't the talent to make this viable enough for some clubs..

Indeed if your demand was to be met all clubs would (have to) do is instead of rejecting academy players who are not up to standard, clubs would have to keep them on the books and go on paying them so they could field a reserve team.

In the end the same number of talented young players would still make it and the same number of players would be struck off the playing registers, only they'd stay longer at clubs before being rejected.

I'm all for giving talent it's chance but not prolonging the agony whilst some sort of "ideal" is followed on the "Well Jamie Peacock didn't make it until he was 20 odd" argument.

These are SL professional clubs who have agreed to support the Reserves competition.  They should act professionally by fulfilling that comp and imo hiring 6 players to fulfil a fixture is not supporting it.

There is no natural progressive step up into the First Team.  Using the Reserves is a way that can be used.  Read the OP.

 

 

[The Parksider]

5 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

 Read the OP.

"The RFL need to sort this out by making Reserves compulsory to a SL competition"

I've read it and don't agree it should be compulsory. Making clubs do this against their will won't exactly get them backing it or funding it properly. They'll fulfill fixtures "because they have to".

Like all RL's modern day problems this is fairly complex and instant solutions are never the answer. 

How the RFL can "force" Superleague clubs to do it, you tell me?? 

 

[ivans82]

Mavbe if super league clubs didn t spend so much money on bog standard overseas forwards who just bang it up make a few tackles ,then wander off after 20 mins they could afford a reserve team . I understand the need for creative players from abroad , but there should be more than enough British forwards around in the Amateur game who could do a similar job !

[MatthewWoody]

22 minutes ago, ivans82 said:

Mavbe if super league clubs didn t spend so much money on bog standard overseas forwards who just bang it up make a few tackles ,then wander off after 20 mins they could afford a reserve team . I understand the need for creative players from abroad , but there should be more than enough British forwards around in the Amateur game who could do a similar job !

With p/r, clubs prefer not taking the risk.

[The Parksider]

21 minutes ago, ivans82 said:

Mavbe if super league clubs didn t spend so much money on bog standard overseas forwards who just bang it up make a few tackles ,then wander off after 20 mins they could afford a reserve team . I understand the need for creative players from abroad , but there should be more than enough British forwards around in the Amateur game who could do a similar job !

Leuluai "bog standard"?

Galloway, Garbutt and Cuthbertson are in the Leeds team exactly because there are not enough forwards in the amateur game who could do a similar job.

This is the old argument overseas players are keeping quality english talent out. So many of the overseas players are quite clearly very talented but don't get the NRL contracts because the NRL clubs have a much bigger quality player pool.

[The Parksider]

2 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

With p/r, clubs prefer not taking the risk.

Leeds as a for instance have always given chances to the young forwards coming through, it's just that in recent years there haven't been any young front row players anywhere near good enough.

It's no risk to run with them in the 25 and play them in games, which is what clubs actually do.

The big issue is that many of the south sea islanders and Maories have a big natural physical presence and that makes them the better choice.

[MatthewWoody]

Just now, The Parksider said:

Leeds as a for instance have always given chances to the young forwards coming through, it's just that in recent years there haven't been any young front row players anywhere near good enough.

It's no risk to run with them in the 25 and play them in games, which is what clubs actually do.

The big issue is that many of the south sea islanders and Maories have a big natural physical presence and that makes them the better choice.

You mentioned a team that rarely risks relegation. 

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

"The RFL need to sort this out by making Reserves compulsory to a SL competition"

I've read it and don't agree it should be compulsory. Making clubs do this against their will won't exactly get them backing it or funding it properly. They'll fulfill fixtures "because they have to".

Like all RL's modern day problems this is fairly complex and instant solutions are never the answer. 

How the RFL can "force" Superleague clubs to do it, you tell me?? 

 

I see TRL have latched on to this thread and have published it with recommendation that Reserves is compulsory, with a caveat that those who don't have reserves lose out with a percentage if the SC.

Give them a call.  Have a debate.

 

[zorquif]

1 hour ago, MatthewWoody said:

With p/r, clubs prefer not taking the risk.

Who were all the lads getting chances from the teams at the bottom during licensing?

[MatthewWoody]

16 hours ago, zorquif said:

Who were all the lads getting chances from the teams at the bottom during licensing?

It's intuitive: when you risk relegation, you don't want to look at the biggest picture and you choose the easiest way (e.g.: buying oversea players, instead of waiting and producing youngsters). 
However I like the system how it is now, as it's a good balance between the need of stability and the p/r that are very important in European sporting culture. 

[zorquif]

1 hour ago, MatthewWoody said:

It's intuitive: when you risk relegation, you don't want to look at the biggest picture and you choose the easiest way (e.g.: buying oversea players, instead of waiting and producing youngsters). 
However I like the system how it is now, as it's a good balance between the need of stability and the p/r that are very important in European sporting culture. 

That's my point. You say that it is intuitive that teams won't look at the big picture under P&R, and so choose the easiest way. That suggests that you think that under a non-P&R system, teams WOULD look at the big picture and blood youth rather than buy from overseas (happy to be corrected). But that wasn't happening anymore under licensing, in particular from the teams in "P&R" positions. That I could see, anyway.  

[Kirmonds pouch]

On 04/04/2017 at 4:13 PM, The Parksider said:

If they are any good Wigan, Saints and Warrington will take them....

That's why Kooks doesn't run teams outside the first team, that's probably why Leigh don't bother either.

Your going back to the idea there are hundreds of talented lads out there, when others state that hundreds of untalented lads are wasting their time making up the numbers to ensure all SL clubs run academy teams. That only a couple in a hundred make it means the latter opinion is backed by the figures.

I love the idea of a reserves league but don't make them all run both academy and reserves, there isn't the talent.

Absolute rubbish - the clubs are to lazy to nurture talent end of - but hey you just keep making excuses.

[Red Willow]

The RFL have a part to play in this. Just making it compulsory isn't the answer.

What do we mean by a reserves side? what age groups ? do we have a career path from school age through to first team? A SL side could have an under 18 but no team to bridge the gap to first team, we lose those players.

[Lowdesert]

32 minutes ago, Red Willow said:

The RFL have a part to play in this. Just making it compulsory isn't the answer.

What do we mean by a reserves side? what age groups ? do we have a career path from school age through to first team? A SL side could have an under 18 but no team to bridge the gap to first team, we lose those players.

Do you follow SL?

[The Parksider]

On 06/04/2017 at 8:56 PM, Kirmonds pouch said:

Absolute rubbish - the clubs are to lazy to nurture talent end of - but hey you just keep making excuses.

RL has a small amateur base as compared to soccer and RU. there is less home grown talent of the right calibre, every year many Academy lads sign on and just don't make it. 

[Damien]

Radlinski on the reserves competition (or lack of it):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/39553273

I completely agree with all of this.

[The Parksider]

45 minutes ago, Damien said:

Radlinski on the reserves competition (or lack of it):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/39553273

I completely agree with all of this.

We go back to the old "how many Jamie Peacock's have been lost to the game" argument that was on the basis that there are lads who are late developers.

I do like the idea of reserves which could sit better with a 10 club Superleague in which the clubs aren't all sat next to each other.

Any late developer at a lowly SL club that turns into a Peacock will still get signed by such as Wigan or Leeds anyway. 

[Damien]

7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

We go back to the old "how many Jamie Peacock's have been lost to the game" argument that was on the basis that there are lads who are late developers.

I do like the idea of reserves which could sit better with a 10 club Superleague in which the clubs aren't all sat next to each other.

Any late developer at a lowly SL club that turns into a Peacock will still get signed by such as Wigan or Leeds anyway. 

Its not just about late developers. Far and away the biggest reason is a stepping stone between u19s and the First Team.

[roughyedspud]

Joint academies like the "city of hull" academy is better than nowt..As long as they are joint ventures..

South yorkshire academy - Sheffield & Doncaster

North Manchester academy - Oldham & Rochdale

West Manchester academy - Salford & swinton

Kirkless academy - Dewsbury & batley

Etc....

 

[kiwis 13 6]

Academies or being a partner in an academy should be mandatory for all super league clubs. If a reserve grade competition is going to also be mandatory for super league sides... ive just had an idea Super League side could run reserve grade side as a separate entity in nearby location to spread the foot print of the game in the north of England eg: Widnes reserve - Runcorn, Wigan - Preston or Blackpool, Hull - Grimsby. etc 

[Lowdesert]

16 hours ago, The Parksider said:

We go back to the old "how many Jamie Peacock's have been lost to the game" argument that was on the basis that there are lads who are late developers.

I do like the idea of reserves which could sit better with a 10 club Superleague in which the clubs aren't all sat next to each other.

Any late developer at a lowly SL club that turns into a Peacock will still get signed by such as Wigan or Leeds anyway. 

How come Wigan focus more on developing their own talent, with reserves and academy?  Signing a Clubb or Briscoe doesn't make Policy and create any reasoning that SL clubs shouldn't nurture their own resource pool.  

 

[The Parksider]

9 hours ago, Damien said:

Its not just about late developers. Far and away the biggest reason is a stepping stone between u19s and the First Team.

What does "stepping stone" mean?

And how did all our young,older and now mature players cope without "A" teams all these years? How did all the genuine English talent still make it without "A" teams.

I'm for them not against them, but not for imposing them on every club.

[The Parksider]

13 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

How come Wigan focus more on developing their own talent, with reserves and academy?  Signing a Clubb or Briscoe doesn't make Policy and create any reasoning that SL clubs shouldn't nurture their own resource pool.  

I'd ask you to look at how deep and wide the Wigan talent pool is, it was wide before they started winning everything in the 80's and 90's, and as a top club for all 20 years of Superleague they have inspired a great depth of talent in the area.

So of course they have the luxury of being able to focus on that, and their strength and reputation draws kids from outside Wigan to the Academy. Reserves is a great idea for them

Just down the road at Leigh they have only a couple of local junior clubs producing players and they struggle for numbers.

There isn't the talent for an academy there, just as there isn't the talent for two academies in Hull.

I'm opposed to putting hundreds of kids through the system that are only there to make the numbers up. Making all SL clubs run reserves means at this higher level you have to put them through additional years before rejecting them.

It's neither soccer nor union the talent pool is very very thin.

 

[The Parksider]

8 hours ago, roughyedspud said:

Joint academies like the "city of hull" academy is better than nowt..As long as they are joint ventures..

South yorkshire academy - Sheffield & Doncaster

North Manchester academy - Oldham & Rochdale

West Manchester academy - Salford & swinton

Kirkless academy - Dewsbury & batley

Etc....

Your from Oldham so you should know what players that are potential Pro's go to big SL clubs. You should know there's only one big Junior club in Rochdale and they don't have any great record of producing professionals if any so why would you set up a North Manchester Academy when there isn't the quality of young player available.

only a couple of players per 100 put through the academies now make it, why would you want to make that failure rate even higher?