Paul Rowley on BBC Radio Manchester

[Oxford]

4 hours ago, Kayakman said:

I don't see any reason why everybody can't be part of the expansion...not one good reason has ever been presented to me.

I see you spotted the first fatal flaw!

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

Come On!....you know that's not what I said.

And the other one.

 

Forums are mostly about having your say, debate is so far down the list you need binoculars to see it and changing points of view is so rare it's an insult to hens teeth to bring them up as comparison.

But it does provide loads of entertainment and some right good laughs. So all in all it parallels TGG completely.

Which Parky vision of the future is your favourite? The RL Babushka on the cold Russian steps waiting for the Napoleonic onslaught or the stream of consciousness 24 hours in the head of a TGG journalist? Both have merits it has to be said. 

Though my special preferred script by far was the Twelve Angry Men but since Marwan left and Derek got relegated it seems to lack the tragicomedy nuance it once had.

 

 

[RayCee]

On 3/26/2018 at 11:17 AM, clogdance said:

RayCee,  remember licensing ? We had 6 years of it here in the UK, where no matter how good you were in the championship (or whatever it was called back then) you could only get relegated to the league below. And it will return, it's just a question of when, not if. Then every Championship club and a few League One clubs, will be dual registered with SL clubs. Happy Days !!

I recall licensing. It was good for its purpose, to settle things down and let clubs invest in stadia etc without the fear of relegation. I don't think expansion has to mean no p/r.

In Australia they don't even think about p/r and yes, the Queensland and NSW state leagues as well as country divisions are feeder systems for the NRL. It can work but the UK mentality is p/r. So it can be that way. Of course, it has its risks such as Les Catalan club. The way they are going it's only a matter of time before they drop. If Toulouse replace them, well that keeps a Euro connection. That is the issue with p/r. 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, RayCee said:

I recall licensing. It was good for its purpose, to settle things down and let clubs invest in stadia etc without the fear of relegation. I don't think expansion has to mean no p/r.

In Australia they don't even think about p/r and yes, the Queensland and NSW state leagues as well as country divisions are feeder systems for the NRL. It can work but the UK mentality is p/r. So it can be that way. Of course, it has its risks such as Les Catalan club. The way they are going it's only a matter of time before they drop. If Toulouse replace them, well that keeps a Euro connection. That is the issue with p/r. 

So which clubs invested in Stadia ? 

You highlight Catalans as being at risk ? , why only them , why not Cas,Wakey,Widnes,HKR,Salford or the ambitious Championship clubs ? 

Maybe because they are an expansion club , whereas the rest  ? 

[RayCee]

41 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So which clubs invested in Stadia ? 

You highlight Catalans as being at risk ? , why only them , why not Cas,Wakey,Widnes,HKR,Salford or the ambitious Championship clubs ? 

Maybe because they are an expansion club , whereas the rest  ? 

St Helens and Salford

As for the Catalan mention, there was much concern on this forum when they looked doomed to go down last year, yes more concern than other clubs would have got that you mentioned. Yes, because it is the sole club in France and would not have been no club in France in SL had they gone down. 

[Kayakman]

8 hours ago, Oxford said:

I see you spotted the first fatal flaw!

And the other one.

 

Forums are mostly about having your say, debate is so far down the list you need binoculars to see it and changing points of view is so rare it's an insult to hens teeth to bring them up as comparison.

But it does provide loads of entertainment and some right good laughs. So all in all it parallels TGG completely.

Which Parky vision of the future is your favourite? The RL Babushka on the cold Russian steps waiting for the Napoleonic onslaught or the stream of consciousness 24 hours in the head of a TGG journalist? Both have merits it has to be said. 

Though my special preferred script by far was the Twelve Angry Men but since Marwan left and Derek got relegated it seems to lack the tragicomedy nuance it once had.

 

 

People over there should be more optimistic and willing to change their positions when needed....we call this in NA being 'flexible' and it is not considered as a weakness but rather a strength.   Too bad I missed all the fun with this Koukash character.

[Oxford]

25 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

we call this in NA being 'flexible'

Well obviously we used to be flexible when we were a happier country but that was long ago and far away.

And as for you expecting TGG and forum diehards to bend according to the evidence, well over optimism must be a contagious disease in Canada!

I can see why!

 

[Kayakman]

59 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Well obviously we used to be flexible when we were a happier country but that was long ago and far away.

And as for you expecting TGG and forum diehards to bend according to the evidence, well over optimism must be a contagious disease in Canada!

I can see why!

 

I think you are actually right about this....but its not that we are overly optimistic in Canada...our level of optimism is normal, therefore  yours is...well....we will leave it there....

this could somehow be tied to the Brexit?

Look when people meet each other on the street and during the morning commute do they say "Hi' to  each other and smile?...and do they really mean it?

if you didn't at  least do that here where I live it would be considered VERY rude.

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, Kayakman said:

People over there should be more optimistic and willing to change their positions when needed....we call this in NA being 'flexible' and it is not considered as a weakness but rather a strength.   Too bad I missed all the fun with this Koukash character.

I am not sure you are seeing an old-world difference.  Bear in mind, you have quickly decided to support a new team in a new sport, playing in a new way.  Such people are likely to be a little more open minded than some who stay with their traditional team in their traditional sport.

I suspect (I could be wrong), that a Manchester franchise in the Canadian Football League might have a similar experience.

[Kayakman]

Just now, Bob8 said:

 

I suspect (I could be wrong), that a Manchester franchise in the Canadian Football League might have a similar experience.

You are wrong on this, not only wold they be Welcomed, it would be an overwhelming Welcome.  You are off base on this one and reading the situation incorrectly....we're just not like that over here....it is a foreign way of thinking to us, doesn't play well over here...not in our national character.  Odd  way of acting, not very neighbourly.

[Bob8]

7 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

You are wrong on this, not only wold they be Welcomed, it would be an overwhelming Welcome.  You are off base on this one and reading the situation incorrectly....we're just not like that over here....it is a foreign way of thinking to us, doesn't play well over here...not in our national character.  Odd  way of acting, not very neighbourly.

I coudl well be wrong.  

But, I confess, I was not expecting the reaction to Les Catalans to be as hateful as it was (do not let them fool you on this, Catalans were hated by many on here when they first arrived). I would not have expected it.

[Kayakman]

2 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I coudl well be wrong.  

But, I confess, I was not expecting the reaction to Les Catalans to be as hateful as it was (do not let them fool you on this, Catalans were hated by many on here when they first arrived). I would not have expected it.

I think it has to do with the general culture over there....its sort of economically depressed and this translates itself into other areas...now the Catalans were French and from outside so I sort of understand it but Toronto is from Canada, is sort of like a child to Gr. Britain....so it has been somewhat surprising on this end.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I coudl well be wrong.  

But, I confess, I was not expecting the reaction to Les Catalans to be as hateful as it was (do not let them fool you on this, Catalans were hated by many on here when they first arrived). I would not have expected it.

Do you think so mate?

My experience was that Catalans were received well and people were excited. They got an awful lot of people excited for away tours, certainly in those early years.

There will always be loud moaners, but I don't recall them being hated.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Selective memory there dave. Les Catalans were 'welcomed' exactly the same as crusaders were when they entered, the same as London were for years and years after they entered, the same as Paris and Gateshead were. The same as Toronto are now. 

Nope. Nothing selective about it at all. There was some controversy around how Catalans were admitted (relegating a 2nd club) and protected, but I think the negativity is being overstated here. 

Many people championed them and adopted them as their second team, plus actually got off their backsides and went to their games.

Similarly, we need to be careful not to go over the top with the TWP point. Again, we hear a few noisy people who don't like it - but the vast majority of views I read are positive, particularly on here. Their games last year attracted higher crowds, suggesting people weren't that against them.

A minority of noisy complainers should not be used to tar others.

I am confident that a quick poll on here would prove my assertion correct, that the majority are supportive of TWP.

[Scubby]

16 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think you are drawing a false dichotomy here dave. plenty did (and do) champion Les Catalans, Toronto, London, et al. That doesnt preclude a significant and sizable proportion of the game taking a vehement and vitriolic opposition to them.

Catalans wouldn't have got the numbers travelling to Perpignan over the years if large parts of the game were against them.

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Nope. Nothing selective about it at all. There was some controversy around how Catalans were admitted (relegating a 2nd club) and protected, but I think the negativity is being overstated here. 

Many people championed them and adopted them as their second team, plus actually got off their backsides and went to their games.

Similarly, we need to be careful not to go over the top with the TWP point. Again, we hear a few noisy people who don't like it - but the vast majority of views I read are positive, particularly on here. Their games last year attracted higher crowds, suggesting people weren't that against them.

A minority of noisy complainers should not be used to tar others.

I am confident that a quick poll on here would prove my assertion correct, that the majority are supportive of TWP.

It was the noisy people I was talking about.

The forum history has been rewritten a little with Les Calatans.  I am writing of a memory of a memory now, but I recall a few years after when I was being told be the hard core traditionalists that I had been supportive of Celtic Crusaders, while they had alwys been supportive of Les Catalans as a traditional RL area.  In those days, I could look up there debate and the venom generated by the entry of Les Catalans from those suddenly claiming to have always supported them was dramatic (and I could also show I had not supported CC entering Super League).  The evidence of this truth did not, of course, alter their recognition. 

I do agree though, TWP would not be generating bigger crowds at their away games if they were really hated overall.

[Dave T]

45 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think you are drawing a false dichotomy here dave. plenty did (and do) champion Les Catalans, Toronto, London, et al. That doesnt preclude a significant and sizable proportion of the game taking a vehement and vitriolic opposition to them.

It depends what you want to classify as significant and sizable. I would argue the case every time that it is the significant minority that are aggressively against these things.

[Dave T]

18 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It was the noisy people I was talking about.

The forum history has been rewritten a little with Les Calatans.  I am writing of a memory of a memory now, but I recall a few years after when I was being told be the hard core traditionalists that I had been supportive of Celtic Crusaders, while they had alwys been supportive of Les Catalans as a traditional RL area.  In those days, I could look up there debate and the venom generated by the entry of Les Catalans from those suddenly claiming to have always supported them was dramatic.  The evidence of this truth did not, of course, alter their recognition. 

I do agree though, TWP would not be generating bigger crowds at their away games if they were really hated overall.

To be fair Bob I have to take your memory as fact with regards to this forum, as I don't believe I was around on here 15 years ago, and tbh, not sure I was on any forum actively at that time.

I maybe just didn't expose myself to groups of negative people on this subject.

But I do recall the large followings they got, their opening victory being celebrated (vs Wigan, so no major surprise) and the support they got at Wembley. 

Any dissent there was towards them does appear to have disintegrated pretty quickly.

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

To be fair Bob I have to take your memory as fact with regards to this forum, as I don't believe I was around on here 15 years ago, and tbh, not sure I was on any forum actively at that time.

I maybe just didn't expose myself to groups of negative people on this subject.

But I do recall the large followings they got, their opening victory being celebrated (vs Wigan, so no major surprise) and the support they got at Wembley. 

Any dissent there was towards them does appear to have disintegrated pretty quickly.

The dissent did indeed disappear.  I watched that first game at Harlequins, straight after Saints had beaten them.  The two sets of fans were getting on very well and both cheered heartily as Les Catalans beat Wigan.  I think.  My memory could be playing tricks on me!

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

The dissent did indeed disappear.  I watched that first game at Harlequins, straight after Saints had beaten them.  The two sets of fans were getting on very well and both cheered heartily as Les Catalans beat Wigan.  I think.  My memory could be playing tricks on me!

A Wigan defeat does seem to have the effect of uniting fans, doesn't it?  

[Scubby]

27 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

I think you are over-estimating the size of the travelling support to perpignan. I doubt that in total even 10k a year travel over. Thats not a bad sum but its hardly indicative that there wasnt any opposition. There clearly was.

It's a good job the authorities didn't listen to those M62 fans when the Northern Union wanted to add clubs from Cumbria after the war. Expansion is to grow the sport, its potential reach and income - not to appease fans.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Certainly, by all means we should ignore them and pretend they dont exist. But we they do.

Well if expansion has done its job some of those fans and clubs will have to get their act together or disappear. Same applies with the NRL. With respect, if in 5 years time the SL is averaging 12-15k per game it won't be because tens of thousands of people have suddenly seen the light in Huddersfield and Salford.

[GUBRATS]

9 hours ago, RayCee said:

St Helens and Salford

As for the Catalan mention, there was much concern on this forum when they looked doomed to go down last year, yes more concern than other clubs would have got that you mentioned. Yes, because it is the sole club in France and would not have been no club in France in SL had they gone down.

The Saints stadium was in the pipeline long before licencing was suggested , what did Salford contribute to theirs ?

Yes you state the obvious , they are the only French club currently in SL , And ?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

A significant minority is a significant number. And it depends on how you phrase the question.

Possibly only 10-15% would say there were dead against it. Probably the same amount would say they were ambivalent, and 70-80% would be for it under the right circumstances. However of those another significant amount would be vehemently against it if those circumstances werent met, those circumstances being a bar so high as to be pointless as a measure.

So all in all we usually see about 30% vehemently and dead set against the inclusion of this new club, about half of those 'not against it but...'

Thats a pretty significant number

Meh, none of that is fact based and tbh is quite different to the aggressive opposition that was highlighted as significant.

Ill just guess 3 to 5%.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

That doesnt preclude a significant and sizable proportion of the game taking a vehement and vitriolic opposition to them.

In fact this was your quote.

Now with only 10 to 15% dead against it, that is not a 'significant proportion' in anyone's book.

[GUBRATS]

Just so everybody is clear , any stadium conceived , designed , had an architects impression done , built or named during P and R shows the success of the system , we could even include Leeds massive investment right now 

Or I could just be being stupid , like other posters suggesting Licencing was a stadium building ' Nirvana '