New Stadium for Workington

[Mark Jenkinson]

21 minutes ago, Super Rooster said:

So how can they provide the information if the initial work isn't completed?  You are scaremongering on guesstimates.  I mean what is £5 million between friends !!!

A business case comes before you stump up for RIBA Stage 3 design and a planning application (due for decision this month).

[Mark Jenkinson]

18 minutes ago, dkw said:

Those figures are incredibly over the top, the 10% design costs especially are wildly inaccurate. Where are you getting these figures from, do you have empirical evidence or professional knowledge? 

As for the design houses round here that are capable of stadium design, can you name them please. 

Professional knowledge. If we went for 7% overall and stage 2 accounting for 15% of overheads then we hit £10m - I’ve used £10-15m

There is a design house with a Whitehaven office already involved - and I make the assumption that the local office will be involved . My point was that it wasn’t tendered. They ended up on it because they’re an international company on the framework.

[Mark Jenkinson]

12 minutes ago, dkw said:

Especially one that's bounderied by a supermarket and railway line. I would love for us to stay at DP as its our home, but being realistic I think the costs and problems associated mean it's just not viable. 

The cost comes wherever you go. A new build might well be cheaper - but no-one has seen any work done on it.

20 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Surely building 1 large stand and new pitch on a new site with hard standing on the other sides would be more cost effective than trying to do it on an existing site.

Quite possibly - will that fulfil the RLWC 12,000 capacity (according to press releases) standards? Maybe the problem is that decisions are being taken too hastily because we’re aiming for the RLWC?

[dkw]

11 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Professional knowledge. If we went for 7% overall and stage 2 accounting for 15% of overheads then we hit £10m - I’ve used £10-15m

There is a design house with a Whitehaven office already involved - and I make the assumption that the local office will be involved . My point was that it wasn’t tendered. They ended up on it because they’re an international company on the framework.

So they didn't need to tender because there's an agreed framework? Im not sure how you expect a tender to go out if there's a framework in place. And I thought you said no local companies were involved, yet now you believe one is? 

What's your professional role exactly? 

[Mark Jenkinson]

3 minutes ago, dkw said:

So they didn't need to tender because there's an agreed framework? Im not sure how you expect a tender to go out if there's a framework in place. And I thought you said no local companies were involved, yet now you believe one is? 

What's your professional role exactly? 

 Use of a framework is a choice. It doesn’t always result in best value and often precludes local companies. 

I didn’t say a local company was involved, I said I made an assumption that the local office of an international company may be involved.

[The Voodooguru]

Mark you are starting to lose me now, earlier you were saying your financially  sound idea was to piecemeal re-build a stadium, now you are conceding it may cost more. The truth is nobody knows if your alternative idea is cheaper or not as you have no idea yourself do you?

Sorry if i offended you with the "making noise" comment but obviously you can't do anything about this ball rolling in your capacity of opposition scrutiny as you would have already done it , so what can you do if such a travesty is happening in ABC?

If we had some concrete figures either way we could make and informed choice, but ABC seem to have hatched a plan and you are decrying it based on assumptions. You may be bang on with what you say but it smells to me like a Labour v Tories squabble as you can't offer a balanced argument based on facts. There must be a shared stadium that is working for both teams yet because it doesn't fit the argument we don't hear about it. 

Keith T researched some figures for new stadia a while back and it all seemed like it was not out of reach, now it is going to add massively to everyone's council tax. I don't know what to believe....

 

[rockerlad]

have a look at Salford city's stadium(football club) it's basically a flat pack stadium and it would suit both our needs perfectly.

[Mark Jenkinson]

9 minutes ago, The Voodooguru said:

Mark you are starting to lose me now, earlier you were saying your financially  sound idea was to piecemeal re-build a stadium, now you are conceding it may cost more. The truth is nobody knows if your alternative idea is cheaper or not as you have no idea yourself do you?

Sorry if i offended you with the "making noise" comment but obviously you can't do anything about this ball rolling in your capacity of opposition scrutiny as you would have already done it , so what can you do if such a travesty is happening in ABC?

If we had some concrete figures either way we could make and informed choice, but ABC seem to have hatched a plan and you are decrying it based on assumptions. You may be bang on with what you say but it smells to me like a Labour v Tories squabble as you can't offer a balanced argument based on facts. There must be a shared stadium that is working for both teams yet because it doesn't fit the argument we don't hear about it. 

Keith T researched some figures for new stadia a while back and it all seemed like it was not out of reach, now it is going to add massively to everyone's council tax. I don't know what to believe....

 

Without the figures,  nobody knows - and I worry that the figures haven’t been looked at, past a guide cost to be formed up at design.

The only thing I know - which worries me greatly - is that the council have considered borrowing up to £38m over 3 years at a cost of £2.3m per year. 

No offence taken BTW. I wouldn’t be on here defending my position if I was easily offended

[GeordieTownie]

10 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Without the figures,  nobody knows - and I worry that the figures haven’t been looked at, past a guide cost to be formed up at design.

The only thing I know - which worries me greatly - is that the council have considered borrowing up to £38m over 3 years at a cost of £2.3m per year. 

No offence taken BTW. I wouldn’t be on here defending my position if I was easily offended

Is that interest only?

[Mark Jenkinson]

11 minutes ago, rockerlad said:

have a look at Salford city's stadium(football club) it's basically a flat pack stadium and it would suit both our needs perfectly.

Probably a really good, speedy solution, and suggestions that it’s under £5m for a capacity of 5,000.

I worry we’re building a relatively huge stadium for a Rugby World Cup, with associated build and running costs thy make it unsustainable.

[GeordieTownie]

2 hours ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Economic regeneration and job creation are the main drivers, allegedly,  but don’t appear to mayeraialise wherever Lucent and KMG are involved.

https://www.facebook.com/711227022228907/posts/2101978416487087/

So where does the other 50% profit go?

[Mark Jenkinson]

Just now, GeordieTownie said:

Is that interest only?

 No, that will be Public Works Loan Board and I think all of their options pay down the capital. Previous PWLB borrowing but ABC was on 30 year terms, which is about they length of life the council now gives a building before its to be replaced rather than refurbished. Which I also take issue with, but that’s a different story.

[Mark Jenkinson]

6 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

So where does the other 50% profit go?

Allerdale Partnership S.á.r.l., formerly Lucent Allerdale Partnership S.á.r.l. A Luxembourg based company owned by  GB Strategic Land Fund (formerly Lucent Strategic Land Fund), which is a fund administered by KMG Capital Markets. The fund has been suspended since early 2016 because of significant exposure.

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

......meanwhile Maryport are set to lose the towns swimming pool for the sake of 100k to repair it !

we all want a nice shiny new stadium, but the country is full of stadia which have become unaffordable and expensive to run, so it has to be affordable and not just one councillors folly; after all, it’ll be the rate payers ultimately paying for it.

Councillors such as Mark Jenkinson are right to ask questions, that’s why they get elected in the first place, and remember, the councillors have a duty to the electorate of Allerdale, not just the people of Workington which receives the lions share of all spending and investments already, whilst towns like Maryport, Aspatria etc get ###### all.

At present, Town and Reds can barely average 1000 spectators between them, so that’s less than 1% of the Boroughs population using a stadium funded by the other 99% who don’t attend matches of either club.

i May have misread Marks comments, but it seems he is only asking for transparency in the decision making process, and has emphasised that he is all for a stadium as long as it’s affordable and ensures the survival of both clubs

 

[unicorn106]

21 hours ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Not borrowing to build a £10.5m centre on a flood plain, when Moorclose had been quoted at £2.7m to bring it up to modern day standards I wasn’t. Could have doubled the Moorclose quote and nearly ended up not borrowing.

You have to admit that the new sports centre is a fantastic facility for the town and is bejng used in large numbers. Why would you spend a few million polishing the t### that was Moorclose SC just so the local scumbags can wreck it again. They had to board the pool up with metal sheets because the windows were being put out on a weekly basis. It was like swimming in a dark metal container. It was built in the wrong place, the new one is more accessible for most and I would imagine it will boost the local economy due to more people coming in to the Town centre. 

[GeordieTownie]

2 hours ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Allerdale Partnership S.á.r.l., formerly Lucent Allerdale Partnership S.á.r.l. A Luxembourg based company owned by  GB Strategic Land Fund (formerly Lucent Strategic Land Fund), which is a fund administered by KMG Capital Markets. The fund has been suspended since early 2016 because of significant exposure.

So now the fund has been suspended where does the 50% go?

 

and how do the council access the previous 50% payments that have gone into it?

[GeordieTownie]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

......meanwhile Maryport are set to lose the towns swimming pool for the sake of 100k to repair it !

we all want a nice shiny new stadium, but the country is full of stadia which have become unaffordable and expensive to run, so it has to be affordable and not just one councillors folly; after all, it’ll be the rate payers ultimately paying for it.

Councillors such as Mark Jenkinson are right to ask questions, that’s why they get elected in the first place, and remember, the councillors have a duty to the electorate of Allerdale, not just the people of Workington which receives the lions share of all spending and investments already, whilst towns like Maryport, Aspatria etc get ###### all.

At present, Town and Reds can barely average 1000 spectators between them, so that’s less than 1% of the Boroughs population using a stadium funded by the other 99% who don’t attend matches of either club.

i May have misread Marks comments, but it seems he is only asking for transparency in the decision making process, and has emphasised that he is all for a stadium as long as it’s affordable and ensures the survival of both clubs

 

Fully agree the whole thing should be fully transparent, how can it not be with such a spend.

But surely full details would need to be revealed?

And I fully agree re the other Towns, it’s obviously a way of forcing people to use the new facility.

[Mark Jenkinson]

1 minute ago, GeordieTownie said:

So now the fund has been suspended where does the 50% go?

 

and how do the council access the previous 50% payments that have gone into it?

All companies are still trading. But shares in the fund can’t be traded.

[GeordieTownie]

1 minute ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

All companies are still trading. But shares in the fund can’t be traded.

So how do the council realise the profit?

[Mark Jenkinson]

10 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

So how do the council realise the profit?

It’s distributed from the Allerdale Investment Partnership LLP, which is the 50/50 joint venture company that ABC and the S.á.r.l. own. Latest filed accounts show a £1.7m loss so distribution of profits not a great issue to date!

[townie88]

My brain hurts

[Carlisle1921]

I cant help but feel if the new joint stadium was a Conservative Allerdale council idea it would be the best thing since sliced bread. It appears to me this is all all a vendetta against AIP, who a certain ex town chairman is heavily involved in. Luckily cllr Jenkinson will probably change his party again soon and our new stadium will have a chance

[Mark Jenkinson]

3 minutes ago, Carlisle1921 said:

I cant help but feel if the new joint stadium was a Conservative Allerdale council idea it would be the best thing since sliced bread. It appears to me this is all all a vendetta against AIP, who a certain ex town chairman is heavily involved in. Luckily cllr Jenkinson will probably change his party again soon and our new stadium will have a chance

I’d have exactly the same opinion. I’m not against a new stadium, perhaps you missed all the times I made my position clear. 

But while we’re on the subject of the AIP, that would be the same AIP that has identified Borough Park and Lonsdale Park for retail development? Is it going to be the site of a new stadium? It can’t be both.

[GeordieTownie]

22 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

It’s distributed from the Allerdale Investment Partnership LLP, which is the 50/50 joint venture company that ABC and the S.á.r.l. own. Latest filed accounts show a £1.7m loss so distribution of profits not a great issue to date!

But it must have assets valued significantly higher than its liabilities?

[Mark Jenkinson]

11 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

But it must have assets valued significantly higher than its liabilities?

Members loans are the loan notes issued to ABC for the land and to the S.á.r.l. For the equivalent cash.

The initial agreement was that 12% interest was paid on loan notes, so the council would see a ‘return’ on their input until profits were realised. The interest rate was reduced to 0% last year.