New Stadium for Workington

[havenhater]

The best solution would have been to build a full complex sports centre stadium as a one time thing to be honest.

 

[GeordieTownie]

58 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

Scrutiny is not the same as just 'making noise'. I also don't think I've used anything like worst-case scenario. I've extrapolated from the current costs of concept design, but that is only set to increase this month, followed by a Stage 3 + planning contract award also in October. We'll be £500k in without a feasibility study, without a sod cut, and without owning the proposed site if speculation for the site is correct.

Decisions need to be financially sound, beneficial to the whole borough and most of all sustainable. I don't think razing the current stadiums to the ground and borrowing to build a new one meets any of those criteria. Our very recent history with land sales suggests we're not getting best value, so how much would land sale contribute? According to the Times and Star ABC have offered £50k for Lonsdale Park, so they can't realistically think that BP is worth considerably more. The training pitch opposite was sold to the AIP for £390k in 2014. The AIP have had more than just a hand in these ideas, and you just need to look at Lincolnshire Lakes to see how it tuns out.

My solution, as I stated earlier in this thread, would be to replace an existing stadium incrementally - starting while we still have two. Replace the pitch, build a new main stand with associated facilities, build the gate figures, build other income streams, replace another stand, etc. Substantially less initial investment, resulting in less borrowing. Critically, much more sustainable for the clubs. Ideally, I'd like to see investment in proper community youth facilities - we've got some ###### poor football and rugby youth facilities dotted all around the place, that wouldn't take a lot to increase quality and capacity. We have athletics teams that have to go outside of the borough just to train

Problem being it’s chicken and egg. You can’t get to this stage without spending the money, and if u don’t get to this stage it couldn’t happen anyway.

Feasibility studies are a load of ###### anyway in some circumstances. 

Is there any external funding or is it fully funded by Allerdale? Are there any other partners interested that would help meet the repayment to offset the potential cost to tax payers.

Its bigger than ‘it’s too expensive’. The model works in some places and doesn’t in others. That’s business, there’s no hard and fast rule and it’s success depends on numerous variables.

[Derwent]

Surely the DP footprint has significant value as a potential retail development with Tesco already there as the anchor to build around ?

Why can't our council strike a deal similar to Warrington Council where they virtually got their stadium built for nothing by giving up the land next door for retail development in return for the stadium being built ? Plus they augmented the stadium by housing local NHS facilities within it which are open to the public every day except match days - walk in medical centre, physio unit, therapy services etc which provides both income for the stadium and local services for the populace.

[Mark Jenkinson]

21 minutes ago, Derwent said:

Surely the DP footprint has significant value as a potential retail development with Tesco already there as the anchor to build around ?

Why can't our council strike a deal similar to Warrington Council where they virtually got their stadium built for nothing by giving up the land next door for retail development in return for the stadium being built ? Plus they augmented the stadium by housing local NHS facilities within it which are open to the public every day except match days - walk in medical centre, physio unit, therapy services etc which provides both income for the stadium and local services for the populace.

I would love it to be funded privately, at least we'd have more surety of it happening as part of a s106 planning requirement or similar. And tenants will certainly help with running costs - but if you're forced to borrow it all then it would still be unsustainable.

DP should have some value - but it's currently restricted by the only access owned by the council being the little bridge. ABC sold out the first 20 yards of the other access road with the Tesco site and the training pitch is now owned by the AIP. Access will therefore come at a ransom unless it was developed by the AIP - the other half of that joint venture is a fund designed to see a return, they're not philanthropists. They're also not good at coming good on promises (Scunthorpe).

If there was some transparency around funding arrangements and the plans, these questions would disappear - but there isn't. The Capital Investment Strategy over the next three years involves more than trebling the council's debt and identifies no other funding streams or where the borrowing costs will come from  I think we're rushing to build for the RLWC, and bad decisions are made in haste. It needs head, not heart if its to happen in a way that's sustainable for both clubs.

 

[GeordieTownie]

5 hours ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

I would love it to be funded privately, at least we'd have more surety of it happening as part of a s106 planning requirement or similar. And tenants will certainly help with running costs - but if you're forced to borrow it all then it would still be unsustainable.

DP should have some value - but it's currently restricted by the only access owned by the council being the little bridge. ABC sold out the first 20 yards of the other access road with the Tesco site and the training pitch is now owned by the AIP. Access will therefore come at a ransom unless it was developed by the AIP - the other half of that joint venture is a fund designed to see a return, they're not philanthropists. They're also not good at coming good on promises (Scunthorpe).

If there was some transparency around funding arrangements and the plans, these questions would disappear - but there isn't. The Capital Investment Strategy over the next three years involves more than trebling the council's debt and identifies no other funding streams or where the borrowing costs will come from  I think we're rushing to build for the RLWC, and bad decisions are made in haste. It needs head, not heart if its to happen in a way that's sustainable for both clubs.

 

So the AIP wouldn’t allow the council an access road despite councillors being involved in it??

Does the profit from the AIP not go back to the council?

[dkw]

As someone who has worked on a development plan for DP n the past I can tell you now that the cost of renovating it to the necessary standard needed to make it eligible for international games, concerts etc would be enormous, maybe even more than building from scratch. For example the soil that DP stands on is not exactly ideal to build on, so piling, foundations etc would be hugely expensive from the onset.

[Mark Jenkinson]

3 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

So the AIP wouldn’t allow the council an access road despite councillors being involved in it??

Does the profit from the AIP not go back to the council?

50% of it does, and 50 % goes to the Luxembourg fund.

I'm not involved in those AIP decisions, only 2 Councillors of 56 are, and they've signed undertakings that they will act in the best interests of the company. The Companies Act puts the same duty on them regardless.

It may even be that the access road that was planned for the Marstons pub could have been extended, which I doubt because of the entrance requirements that would be required for a retail park  - but that certainly wasn't part of the planning application, and would have to come as part of a future one. The Marstons pub probably won't be going ahead now they have permission for on on The Green, so who know's what's coming?

 

[Mark Jenkinson]

9 minutes ago, dkw said:

As someone who has worked on a development plan for DP n the past I can tell you now that the cost of renovating it to the necessary standard needed to make it eligible for international games, concerts etc would be enormous, maybe even more than building from scratch. For example the soil that DP stands on is not exactly ideal to build on, so piling, foundations etc would be hugely expensive from the onset.

That goes for all of the land round there dkw - DP, BP, LP, The Green, the training pitch. All can be overcome, as a planned Travelodge attests.

[Rango]

Seems to me that councilor jenkinson is  vehemently against any future development of workington. If we were unfortunate to have his Luddite attitude at the helm of the council then we’d be stuck with the old St. John’s precinct and the old knackered moorclose sports center. I for one applaud Allerdale council for trying to drag us into the 21st century and give us facilities that the rest of the country seem to benefit from. It will hopefully give both teams and the wider community something to be proud of. 

Lets not forget that the savage austerity cuts that the Tory government has bestowed on our local councils are the reason we have to look at borrowing so much,  a party that councilor jenkinson purportedly represents. Maybe if he put his energy into looking at ways of finding funding streams to build a stadium instead of one sided views on why we possibly shouldn’t????

[Mark Jenkinson]

2 minutes ago, Rango said:

Seems to me that councilor jenkinson is  vehemently against any future development of workington. If we were unfortunate to have his Luddite attitude at the helm of the council then we’d be stuck with the old St. John’s precinct and the old knackered moorclose sports center. I for one applaud Allerdale council for trying to drag us into the 21st century and give us facilities that the rest of the country seem to benefit from. It will hopefully give both teams and the wider community something to be proud of. 

Lets not forget that the savage austerity cuts that the Tory government has bestowed on our local councils are the reason we have to look at borrowing so much,  a party that councilor jenkinson purportedly represents. Maybe if he put his energy into looking at ways of finding funding streams to build a stadium instead of one sided views on why we possibly shouldn’t????

I am 100% behind a new stadium, I don't believe that the council funding it is sustainable for taxpayers. I don't think that the clubs being railroaded into covering the costs is sustainable for the clubs. If we were talking about a privately funded stadium, there would be no question so long as it was the right development in the right place. If we were talking about the clubs coming for assistance for the last £1m after all of the other funding was in place, there probably wouldn't be much to question. But we're not.

You can't shout about cuts, and then go on to blame them for borrowing for non-statutory functions. The borrowing costs have to then be taken from the budget every year for the next 30. Should we do that through cutting jobs and services or by increasing council tax?

The other option is that the council passes the costs to the clubs, which is my biggest fear currently for two clubs that are only just scraping by.

The town centre was privately funded BTW.

[town4me]

3 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

I am 100% behind a new stadium, I don't believe that the council funding it is sustainable for taxpayers. I don't think that the clubs being railroaded into covering the costs is sustainable for the clubs. If we were talking about a privately funded stadium, there would be no question so long as it was the right development in the right place. If we were talking about the clubs coming for assistance for the last £1m after all of the other funding was in place, there probably wouldn't be much to question. But we're not.

You can't shout about cuts, and then go on to blame them for borrowing for non-statutory functions. The borrowing costs have to then be taken from the budget every year for the next 30. Should we do that through cutting jobs and services or by increasing council tax?

The other option is that the council passes the costs to the clubs, which is my biggest fear currently for two clubs that are only just scraping by.

The town centre was privately funded BTW.

So basically we can forget about the new proposed stadium as it isn't going to happen then.  Someone must have sat down amd done the figures  and thought it was sustainable.  Ok we'll just carry on living in the dark ages. 

[Mark Jenkinson]

5 minutes ago, town4me said:

So basically we can forget about the new proposed stadium as it isn't going to happen then.  Someone must have sat down amd done the figures  and thought it was sustainable.  Ok we'll just carry on living in the dark ages. 

If they have, the feasibility study should be published. Give everyone the chance to scrutinise the figures - clubs, shareholders, fans, taxpayers. Do away with the cloak and dagger stuiff and the questions disappear if it stacks up.

[GeordieTownie]

8 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

If they have, the feasibility study should be published. Give everyone the chance to scrutinise the figures - clubs, shareholders, fans, taxpayers. Do away with the cloak and dagger stuiff and the questions disappear if it stacks up.

Doesn’t need to be a feasibility study just a business plan and forecast?

[GeordieTownie]

35 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

50% of it does, and 50 % goes to the Luxembourg fund.

I'm not involved in those AIP decisions, only 2 Councillors of 56 are, and they've signed undertakings that they will act in the best interests of the company. The Companies Act puts the same duty on them regardless.

It may even be that the access road that was planned for the Marstons pub could have been extended, which I doubt because of the entrance requirements that would be required for a retail park  - but that certainly wasn't part of the planning application, and would have to come as part of a future one. The Marstons pub probably won't be going ahead now they have permission for on on The Green, so who know's what's coming?

 

What’s the Luxembourg fund? And why on earth would they create an AIP if it made them financially worse off?

[Mark Jenkinson]

2 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

Doesn’t need to be a feasibility study just a business plan and forecast?

Anything, to show that there's at least some thought behind it. And that can be scrutinised.

[Mark Jenkinson]

7 minutes ago, GeordieTownie said:

What’s the Luxembourg fund? And why on earth would they create an AIP if it made them financially worse off?

Economic regeneration and job creation are the main drivers, allegedly,  but don’t appear to mayeraialise wherever Lucent and KMG are involved.

https://www.facebook.com/711227022228907/posts/2101978416487087/

[Super Rooster]

Hold on a minute - surely plans and associated surveys need to be drawn up/carried out first before any feasibility study can be completed?

Seeing as you have all the answers Mark maybe you could tell us all the following:

1. The proposed capacity of the stadium

2. The break down of seating and standing places - as this will determine construction costs

3. The ancillary facilities that will be put in place - car parking places etc.

4. What facilities will be included that can be hired out externally

5. Energy saving schemes to offset running costs

Oh and the construction costs - are you basing your estimates on no external funding through grants etc? Please tell us what they are?

 

 

[Super Rooster]

You said this Mark on your Facebook site:

"£158,000 spent at the stroke of a pen on concept design for a new shared stadium. All without a tender process.

How many local firms were invited to tender? NONE."

Could you name some who could have delivered this?

 

[Mark Jenkinson]

2 minutes ago, Super Rooster said:

Hold on a minute - surely plans and associated surveys need to be drawn up/carried out first before any feasibility study can be completed?

Seeing as you have all the answers Mark maybe you could tell us all the following:

1. The proposed capacity of the stadium

2. The break down of seating and standing places - as this will determine construction costs

3. The ancillary facilities that will be put in place - car parking places etc.

4. What facilities will be included that can be hired out externally

5. Energy saving schemes to offset running costs

Oh and the construction costs - are you basing your estimates on no external funding through grants etc? Please tell us what they are?

 

 

No published answers to any of your questions, which is the problem.

For a construction estimate, I would crudely expect the design costs to RIBA Stage 2 (£158k) to be ~20% of total project overheads, and those to be about 10% of project cost. So I’ve used £10-15m.

All we know is that the Capital Investment Strategy discusses the council borrowing £38m over 3 years for unspecified projects, at a cost of up to £2.3m/yr.

Lack of information is the biggest problem.

[Mark Jenkinson]

8 minutes ago, Super Rooster said:

You said this Mark on your Facebook site:

"£158,000 spent at the stroke of a pen on concept design for a new shared stadium. All without a tender process.

How many local firms were invited to tender? NONE."

Could you name some who could have delivered this?

 

There are a number of Cumbrian design houses, and even more that have Cumbrian offices. The point is it wasn’t tendered.

Bad decisions are made in haste. 

[Super Rooster]

Mark - you've avoided the question - name a company and name a stadium they have delivered?

[Super Rooster]

50 minutes ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

No published answers to any of your questions, which is the problem.

For a construction estimate, I would crudely expect the design costs to RIBA Stage 2 (£158k) to be ~20% of total project overheads, and those to be about 10% of project cost. So I’ve used £10-15m.

All we know is that the Capital Investment Strategy discusses the council borrowing £38m over 3 years for unspecified projects, at a cost of up to £2.3m/yr.

Lack of information is the biggest problem.

So how can they provide the information if the initial work isn't completed?  You are scaremongering on guesstimates.  I mean what is £5 million between friends !!!

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

No published answers to any of your questions, which is the problem.

For a construction estimate, I would crudely expect the design costs to RIBA Stage 2 (£158k) to be ~20% of total project overheads, and those to be about 10% of project cost. So I’ve used £10-15m.

All we know is that the Capital Investment Strategy discusses the council borrowing £38m over 3 years for unspecified projects, at a cost of up to £2.3m/yr.

Lack of information is the biggest problem.

Those figures are incredibly over the top, the 10% design costs especially are wildly inaccurate. Where are you getting these figures from, do you have empirical evidence or professional knowledge? 

As for the design houses round here that are capable of stadium design, can you name them please. 

[Davo5]

10 hours ago, Mark Jenkinson said:

 

My solution, as I stated earlier in this thread, would be to replace an existing stadium incrementally - starting while we still have two. Replace the pitch, build a new main stand with associated facilities, build the gate figures, build other income streams, replace another stand, etc. Substantially less initial investment, resulting in less borrowing. Critically, much more sustainable for the clubs. Ideally, I'd like to see investment in proper community youth facilities - we've got some ###### poor football and rugby youth facilities dotted all around the place, that wouldn't take a lot to increase quality and capacity. We have athletics teams that have to go outside of the borough just to train

Surely building 1 large stand and new pitch on a new site with hard standing on the other sides would be more cost effective than trying to do it on an existing site.

[dkw]

5 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Surely building 1 large stand and new pitch on a new site with hard standing on the other sides would be more cost effective than trying to do it on an existing site.

Especially one that's bounderied by a supermarket and railway line. I would love for us to stay at DP as its our home, but being realistic I think the costs and problems associated mean it's just not viable.