Australia vs Tonga

[Allora]

4 minutes ago, Rawschach said:

Watched game this morning, very entertaining despite the Aussies scoring enough points early doors to mean the result was never in doubt.

Tedesco is quality - defensively and in attack.  He has massive shoes to fill but is such a good player.  If Ponga wants to play at full back can we find him an English grandma?  (Not serious)

Tonga showed that forwards don't win you games, halves do.  Lolohea has always looked more of a runner when I have seen him play (showed some nice sidesteps in this match) and his kicking game was all over the place.  He has certainly 'filled out' as well.  I hope he doesn't find Fazenda in Leeds.

Tonga (like England and pretty much every team) need a Thurston or a Cronk to get them round the park.  The forwards did a great job and they had a lot of good field position.  Defensively they were poor whenever Australia got near the line - and the Aussies backs did some good stuff.

It was great having a match to watch.  It could have been closer which would have been even better.  Looking forward to England and NZ even more now.   

Good summary.

 

[17 stone giant]

I watched the 2nd half this morning, as I had to do kids football yesterday so only got to see the 1st half. Shame that the scoreline wasn't closer, but what an occasion. The whole thing looked and sounded awesome. It's that whole thing whereby enthusiasm is infectious. Even though it's not your team playing, you just feed off the emotion and passion from the crowd. The sea of red throughout the stadium. I really hope they continue to hold such matches. Full credit to NZ for allowing this in their country, and to the Aussies for taking a pay cut to play. I hope that some of the NZ born Tonga fans will also go and get behind NZ for matches against Australia and England etc. There's no reason why they can't support both their country of birth and residence, and their ancestral home.

I agree with someone who said elsewhere that they didn't think Tonga (and I'd add PNG in with that) would be a big draw in England, so I probably be too bothered about them coming over. But playing both of them in the southern hemisphere is something that I'd always want England/GB to try and do, whenever we're out that way.

[DavidM]

Tevita Pangai Jnr is an absolute monster . He’s the next Taumalolo . Coming on a ton and more than aimed up yesterday

[Damien]

17 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Tevita Pangai Jnr is an absolute monster . He’s the next Taumalolo . Coming on a ton and more than aimed up yesterday

He certainly is, just hope he sticks with them. NSW keep calling and the money and guaranteed games would always be tempting. That is why it's vital to give Tonga more games and a proper calendar, it pretty hard to keep these guys committed with just one or two games a year on low/no money.

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

He certainly is, just hope he sticks with them. NSW keep calling and the money and guaranteed games would always be tempting. That is why it's vital to give Tonga more games and a proper calendar, it pretty hard to keep these guys committed with just one or two games a year on low/no money.

Do you know what the official policy on State of Origin and international representation is? Does one actially exist or is it just understood that State representation and international representation outside of the Kangaroos don't mix. I don't think I have ever seen it officially laid out.

Not just for you Damien, it's a general query. 

[Damien]

46 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Do you know what the official policy on State of Origin and international representation is? Does one actially exist or is it just understood that State representation and international representation outside of the Kangaroos don't mix. I don't think I have ever seen it officially laid out.

Not just for you Damien, it's a general query. 

In theory a player can play for a tier 2 nation and still get picked for State of Origin but not another tier 1 nation other than Australia. Obviously this means that he would be choosing NSW over Tonga come the international rep weekend i.e Tonga v New Zealand next year and any other clashes if the number of international rep weekends can be increasing in the next TV deal. Also playing SOO could make poaching by Australia more likely too.

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

In theory a player can play for a tier 2 nation and still get picked for State of Origin but not another tier 1 nation other than Australia. Obviously this means that he would be choosing NSW over Tonga come the international rep weekend i.e Tonga v New Zealand next year and any other clashes if the number of international rep weekends can be increasing in the next TV deal. Also playing SOO could make poaching by Australia more likely too.

Thanks.

I find it frustrating that players are forced to choose between SOO and a tier 2 nation due to the fact they are played on the same weekend.  I understand why SOO is seen as the same level (or higher) than internationals in Australia and it is certainly not their fault that international league was so uncompetitive that it left a vacuum that SOO filled.  But its still frustrating.

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Thanks.

I find it frustrating that players are forced to choose between SOO and a tier 2 nation due to the fact they are played on the same weekend.  I understand why SOO is seen as the same level (or higher) than internationals in Australia and it is certainly not their fault that international league was so uncompetitive that it left a vacuum that SOO filled.  But its still frustrating.

Exactly the point I was gonna make . It’s ridiculous to players like Fifita in that position . International rugby is the pinnacle but it shouldnt be in direct competition to Origin . It is disrespectful to the tier two nations . Tonga deserve better

[bobbruce]

22 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Yes, I get that.  But the two players in the Australian team from Tongan decent Felise Kaufusi and Tyson Frizell look like they don't an ounce of fat on them.  It can't be a coincidence that the Australian national team can get these players in top shape but not the Tongan team.

In isn’t international teams that get the players conditioned they don’t have them long enough. 

[Damien]

To be fair mid season that weekend is the only time it can be played. The key, for me anyway, is having 3 international rep weekends on each State of Origin weekend so that players have a meaningful alternative. As it is they are being asked to give up an awful lot for 1 mid season international and at the moment one end of season international in Tonga's case this year. If you were Fijian or Samoan you wouldn't have even had an end of season international this year. 3 SOO games and maybe 4 or 5 Australian games some years is a damn site more appealing.

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

In isn’t international teams that get the players conditioned they don’t have them long enough. 

I know, that was kind of my point.  The Australian players came into the game in top shape including their players with Tongan heritage and their big forwards who didn't play in the NRL finals so hadn't had a game for weeks before the Kiwi test.  And yet we are happy to accept that the Tongans were under done because it was weeks after the end of the NRL season.  The Australian set up is ultra professional and demands that level of discipline from its players.  All the other nations need to match this and in my opinion the Tongans didn't and it was part of the reason they lost the game.

[Dunbar]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

To be fair mid season that weekend is the only time it can be played. The key, for me anyway, is having 3 international rep weekends on each State of Origin weekend so that players have a meaningful alternative. As it is they are being asked to give up an awful lot for 1 mid season international and at the moment one end of season international in Tonga's case this year. If you were Fijian or Samoan you wouldn't have even had an end of season international this year. 3 SOO games and maybe 4 or 5 Australian games some years is a damn site more appealing.

That would work and certainly better than we have now.  Rep weekends are difficult for Northern/Southern hemisphere fixtures though as the NRL objection to the Denver test showed.  I would love to see a 4 week international break mid season synchronised for NH and SH.  That way we could have 4 weeks of internationals mid season and then another 4 at the end of the year.

I do realise its a pipe dream though.

[Clogiron]

I see big Nige is lauding it as the future of International League along with the emerging nations event, and what was his involvement with it? I thought he was in a Southern Hemisphere hibernation.

[DoubleD]

13 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Agreed, and that is just the point I was making earlier, the first instinct of the majority of the Tongan team with Ball in Hand is to try to run over the top of the opposition there is no subtlety to their style of play, they are in the main the first out players who take the ball in or link runners for their clubs, guided and told where and when to run.

Yes, they did exactly what I was expecting, they are a grown up version of an U10's team, ball under the arm and go. Individually they will try to run through a brick wall for their team for that they are commendable, but that is what you get. 

For me this is the way the modern day game is going, it is a direct influence of the multiple interchanges that are allowed, a team can overload with the 'power men' they are not required to have much anaerobic capacity to maintain their endurance they can be exchanged for a 'fresher' man whenever it suits, yesterday there were 10 interchanges permissible. It is taking the skill levels from the game, and I think this Tongan team are the best example of that up to date, I agree with Dunbar, they were mostly in all probability up to their individual condition levels, further I think they are simply playing to their strengths, i.e. impact, tire, replace.

I am under no illusion that they will win more than they will lose, there are only 3 other teams who could match or contain the Tongan's physicallity, in doing so the skill factor should then overcome and be in the favour of those who are capable.

For those of us who are merely spectators of the game It all comes down to individual preferance, I prefare to see a mixture of power but with skill as the main contributor to the proceedings on the pitch, I think modern day rules are eroding the skill factor, cutting back to four interchanges would promote more open play and be much more attractive, unless that it is crash, bang, wallop which is one's preferred mode of entertainment.

I agree with some of what you say Harry, but i do feel you're being a little unfair on Tonga here.

Their first try was pure class - the hands by Pangai Jr and Jennings out to Tupou who finished sublimely. Tonga were really hindered by the loss of Hingaro, which meant they played with 1 half. Hopoate and Havili are not the most creative pivots, so they really had to try and play to their strengths. They also had limited time together to put together set moves, and without one of their key playmakers, it perhaps became inevitable that they tried to use their power.

[DoubleD]

6 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I know, that was kind of my point.  The Australian players came into the game in top shape including their players with Tongan heritage and their big forwards who didn't play in the NRL finals so hadn't had a game for weeks before the Kiwi test.  And yet we are happy to accept that the Tongans were under done because it was weeks after the end of the NRL season.  The Australian set up is ultra professional and demands that level of discipline from its players.  All the other nations need to match this and in my opinion the Tongans didn't and it was part of the reason they lost the game.

Kaufusi has played in the final and Frizzell in the semis and they also played last week in NZ so it's not like they've had a lot of downtime unlike some of the Tongan players.

Tonga does not have the resources or back room support to be able to implement a setup as professional as Australia's. They can't afford it. I don't think you can tar all the Tongan players with the same brush of not being ultra professional though. The likes of Taukieaho, Tupou, Fusitua, Pangai Jr, Blake etc looked in good shape to me, even after not playing for many weeks

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Kaufusi has played in the final and Frizzell in the semis and they also played last week in NZ so it's not like they've had a lot of downtime unlike some of the Tongan players.

Tonga does not have the resources or back room support to be able to implement a setup as professional as Australia's. They can't afford it. I don't think you can tar all the Tongan players with the same brush of not being ultra professional though. The likes of Taukieaho, Tupou, Fusitua, Pangai Jr, Blake etc looked in good shape to me, even after not playing for many weeks

Ok, I'll wrap it up now. Didn't realise it would have been so controversial to say that the Australian team were fitter than the Tongans.

[DoubleD]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Ok, I'll wrap it up now. Didn't realise it would have been so controversial to say that the Australian team were fitter than the Tongans.

Fair enough, I don't think there's anything controversial in that...............perhaps i was just misinterpreting something else from your earlier posts

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Fair enough, I don't think there's anything controversial in that...............perhaps i was just misinterpreting something else from your earlier posts

I was probably just too harsh in my language because I was really hoping for a Tonga win.

[B rad]

9 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Do you know what the official policy on State of Origin and international representation is? Does one actially exist or is it just understood that State representation and international representation outside of the Kangaroos don't mix. I don't think I have ever seen it officially laid out.

Not just for you Damien, it's a general query. 

Milford played for Queensland and Samoa this year. If they are happy to let him miss mid season test (or Origin game 2) its all good.

[Damien]

8 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Ok, I'll wrap it up now. Didn't realise it would have been so controversial to say that the Australian team were fitter than the Tongans.

No one has disputed that, it is your reasoning that people disagree with.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

No one has disputed that, it is your reasoning that people disagree with.

That's the funny thing.  If you read back through this whole debate I didn't actually put forward any reasons why I thought the Australians were fitter, I just disputed the consensus opinion on here that it was unavoidable that the Tongans were going to in worse shape and so we should just accept it.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

That's the funny thing.  If you read back through this whole debate I didn't actually put forward any reasons why I thought the Australians were fitter, I just disputed the consensus opinion on here that it was unavoidable that the Tongans were going to in worse shape and so we should just accept it.

And like I said it was your reasoning as to why that is the case.

[Dunbar]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

And like I said it was your reasoning as to why that is the case.

I am sure that we all want the tier 2 nations to compete with and one day defeat the Kangaroos... for the good of the international game if nothing else.  And yet when we all agree that the Australians were fitter than the Tongans in this game, we are just prepared to shrug our shoulders and say 'never mind, that's just the way it is'!

I'm sorry, people can come up with all the reasons they want but I am not going to accept it was inevitable that some of the Tongan players were out of shape.

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I am sure that we all want the tier 2 nations to compete with and one day defeat the Kangaroos... for the good of the international game if nothing else.  And yet when we all agree that the Australians were fitter than the Tongans in this game, we are just prepared to shrug our shoulders and say 'never mind, that's just the way it is'!

I'm sorry, people can come up with all the reasons they want but I am not going to accept it was inevitable that some of the Tongan players were out of shape.

Yes but you've said it about 150 times !

The main reason why the score wasn't closer was the Tongan players lack of game time,they lost the game in the first half when their completion rate was just over 50%,the fact they got better as the game wore on suggests they weren't as out of shape as you continually state.

These were the World Champions they were playing,most of which had played club rugby deep into the play offs and who had played a tough Test match the week before.

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Yes but you've said it about 150 times !

The main reason why the score wasn't closer was the Tongan players lack of game time,they lost the game in the first half when their completion rate was just over 50%,the fact they got better as the game wore on suggests they weren't as out of shape as you continually state.

These were the World Champions they were playing,most of which had played club rugby deep into the play offs and who had played a tough Test match the week before.

I agreed about 5 pages back that Tonga were rusty and would have been better if they had a game the week before as the Kangaroos did. I am not saying fitbess was the only reason why they lost, but a contributing factor.

I also said that it wasn't just how well they were going at the end that matters, it is the small effort plays during the match that matter just as much... especially, as you say, they were out of the game by half time.

It's not just me restating my point over again is it.