Is there a limit on foreign teams in SL?

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, Lot 17a said:

Mentioned this to friends recently. 

It's more likely that RL in America really takes off, all the best/better players head over there instead of SL/leave SL and we end up going cap in hand to the American RL league saying "please sir, can we play with you?"

This is scare mongering on a huge scale.

After 20+ years Major League Soccer still only has a salary cap of around £3 million + exemptions for 3 designated players (similar to our marquee allowance). That isn't even as much as the NRL. That is for a much bigger sport globally than Rugby League and a sport infinitely bigger in America. If after 20+ years they are only at that stage I don't think RL has too much to worry about for quite some time yet. If they do though ever get to that stage then they will want the best which would be NRL players not SL ones.

[GUBRATS]

16 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is scare mongering on a huge scale.

After 20+ years Major League Soccer still only has a salary cap of around £3 million + exemptions for 3 designated players (similar to our marquee allowance). That isn't even as much as the NRL. That is for a much bigger sport globally than Rugby League and a sport infinitely bigger in America. If after 20+ years they are only at that stage I don't think RL has too much to worry about for quite some time yet. If they do though ever get to that stage then they will want the best which would be NRL players not SL ones.

As you say the MLS has a very small salary cap competing against massive spends in the major European leagues , But RL has a tiny salary cap in comparison , so it isn't a realistic comparison 

So as you say the NA Super League would go after the NRL , so where would they then look ? 

Quite simply if RL did ever ' take off ' in NA even a 6\7 million salary cap would decimate both the NRL and SL , because as our Canadian friends have told us , they don't care where their players come from 

[Damien]

13 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

As you say the MLS has a very small salary cap competing against massive spends in the major European leagues , But RL has a tiny salary cap in comparison , so it isn't a realistic comparison 

So as you say the NA Super League would go after the NRL , so where would they then look ? 

Quite simply if RL did ever ' take off ' in NA even a 6\7 million salary cap would decimate both the NRL and SL , because as our Canadian friends have told us , they don't care where their players come from 

Of course it's a realistic comparison. After 20+ years the salary cap of a major world sport with a much bigger grassroots and much bigger following is only £3 million. That is less than the NRL and only £1 million or so more than Super League. For your end of days scenario to come to pass Rugby League in North America would have to take off in an unprecedented way and in a way much bigger than the biggest sport in the world. 

[Lot 17a]

It was abit tongue in cheek.

[RP London]

11 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

I wish you would have a go. The point is you're not!......Why aren't the Wolfpack Supporters Groups forming a Youth League with all the age grades already? It's not expensive compared to American Football or Ice Hockey. The sooner you start the sooner you are going to be striving for greatness against England, NZ & Australia. 

whilst i agree it is about junior development you do have to give clubs a bit more time to develop things. They are, rightfully IMHO, concentrating their efforts on getting the main team (the one people aspire to and will play the sport to have a chance of playing for, as per pretty much what everyone is saying) up and running properly before then concentrating on the junior development. 

Even if, for example, they were trying to get into schools more there is ground work to do before you get to see the results and maybe they just aren't shouting about it because it isn't the way it is done. If after 5-10 years there is 0 development in junior teams then I am with you 100%. 

A bit of patience is needed in all of this.

[Kayakman]

56 minutes ago, RP London said:

whilst i agree it is about junior development you do have to give clubs a bit more time to develop things. They are, rightfully IMHO, concentrating their efforts on getting the main team (the one people aspire to and will play the sport to have a chance of playing for, as per pretty much what everyone is saying) up and running properly before then concentrating on the junior development. 

Even if, for example, they were trying to get into schools more there is ground work to do before you get to see the results and maybe they just aren't shouting about it because it isn't the way it is done. If after 5-10 years there is 0 development in junior teams then I am with you 100%. 

A bit of patience is needed in all of this.

Our current Conservative provincial government is well on its way to having all high school sports destroyed for the next four years...so thats a no go.  The growth will come...it needs time.  How TWP go this year and hopefully get into SL and Ottawa getting a franchise are, to say the least, key to the future development.

Time and support...we need time and support.  No money please...we have more than enough of that already.

[Smudger06]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

whilst i agree it is about junior development you do have to give clubs a bit more time to develop things. They are, rightfully IMHO, concentrating their efforts on getting the main team (the one people aspire to and will play the sport to have a chance of playing for, as per pretty much what everyone is saying) up and running properly before then concentrating on the junior development. 

Even if, for example, they were trying to get into schools more there is ground work to do before you get to see the results and maybe they just aren't shouting about it because it isn't the way it is done. If after 5-10 years there is 0 development in junior teams then I am with you 100%. 

A bit of patience is needed in all of this.

Indeed. 

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

Of course it's a realistic comparison. After 20+ years the salary cap of a major world sport with a much bigger grassroots and much bigger following is only £3 million. That is less than the NRL and only £1 million or so more than Super League. For your end of days scenario to come to pass Rugby League in North America would have to take off in an unprecedented way and in a way much bigger than the biggest sport in the world. 

For the MLS to compete for the best footballers in the world they would have to abolish the salary cap completely and spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year 

To compete for the best RL layers in the world would require no more than ten million dollars , how is that a realistic comparison ?

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

For the MLS to compete for the best footballers in the world they would have to abolish the salary cap completely and spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year 

To compete for the best RL layers in the world would require no more than ten million dollars , how is that a realistic comparison ?

You are making that comparison, not me.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

You are making that comparison, not me.

You brought the MLS into the discussion , not me 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You brought the MLS into the discussion , not me 

I know and it regarding the size and finances and the growth of a start up League and teams in the US. You are talking about figures like 10 and 25 million dollars. I am merely pointing out that 20+ years down the line even Soccer, with all its might and finance, is no where near those figures. Hence why it's scaremongering to say so. I thought that would have been pretty obvious.

[GUBRATS]

56 minutes ago, Damien said:

I know and it regarding the size and finances and the growth of a start up League and teams in the US. You are talking about figures like 10 and 25 million dollars. I am merely pointing out that 20+ years down the line even Soccer, with all its might and finance, is no where near those figures. Hence why it's scaremongering to say so. I thought that would have been pretty obvious.

Yes but the MLS teams aren't playing against the best teams from Europe , but the idea is that NA RL teams will be competing ( and be expected to ' compete ' ) against the best RL teams in Europe ( the 2 be best competition in the world ) , the only way they will do that is to offer more money than either SL or the NRL for players , that will result in a substantial increase in the Salary Cap , in doing that it will push half of the current SL clubs further behind both the better clubs and the NA clubs , in fact not just half but potentially all of them , even Leeds, Wigan,Warrington and Saints 

Then we start to have problems 

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Our current Conservative provincial government is well on its way to having all high school sports destroyed for the next four years...so thats a no go.  The growth will come...it needs time.  How TWP go this year and hopefully get into SL and Ottawa getting a franchise are, to say the least, key to the future development.

Time and support...we need time and support.  No money please...we have more than enough of that already.

Day One good friend, the longer a specific plan to "expand" the game through the locals and especially the kids the longer it will take to put down a firm foothold. 

Time and support you request, time is of the essence and support has to be performed as it is done here in the UK, it is ordinary people who are the lifeblood of the game over here forget the money people, the club owners, the CEO's, the club officials for those are the beneficiaries of the work done by volunteer's who initially look after the kids, sort out the league systems and simply organise everything that the production of youngsters who eventually will permiate through the systems to become our elite professional players come from.

Those who mention 5 to 10 years from the sowing of the seeds to reaping the harvest of pro players in Canada are either not familiar with how the system works or are simply deluding themselves, Rugby League is an organic product and like anything organic it takes time to evolve it simply cannot be fastracked, out of every 100 of the top 16 year olds in this country if 1 or 2 progress through to SL that will be a very good return. For Canada to reach that conversion rate it will take 2 to 3 generations.

You say TWP in SL and Ottowa getting a franchise are the key to future development, I will contradict that statement, they will be the nucleus of bringing the Circus to town, development is introducing participants to playing the game, formulating teams, putting in place league structures, organising pathways of excellence, as I state it is a long process, your owner must be very familiar with what the process involves of taking raw kids through to the elite level, it makes me wonder if he is serious about the longevity of the game in your country or he is just the Circus Master financing a pro club for his own pleasure? Day one good friend, it is up to the good folk of Toronto who have grown an affinity to this wonderful sport to get together, organise themselves and start the ball rolling, they can then take a plan along with a begging bowl to Mr Argyle and hope he buy's into the proposals and strategies put forward, you do want the game to last much longer than the span of a rich mans involvement, don't you? Day one good friend, it is a very good time to start! 

Initial suggestion, K'man - President, Canadian Junior Rugby League Association.

[Smudger06]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Day One good friend, the longer a specific plan to "expand" the game through the locals and especially the kids the longer it will take to put down a firm foothold. 

Time and support you request, time is of the essence and support has to be performed as it is done here in the UK, it is ordinary people who are the lifeblood of the game over here forget the money people, the club owners, the CEO's, the club officials for those are the beneficiaries of the work done by volunteer's who initially look after the kids, sort out the league systems and simply organise everything that the production of youngsters who eventually will permiate through the systems to become our elite professional players come from.

Those who mention 5 to 10 years from the sowing of the seeds to reaping the harvest of pro players in Canada are either not familiar with how the system works or are simply deluding themselves, Rugby League is an organic product and like anything organic it takes time to evolve it simply cannot be fastracked, out of every 100 of the top 16 year olds in this country if 1 or 2 progress through to SL that will be a very good return. For Canada to reach that conversion rate it will take 2 to 3 generations.

You say TWP in SL and Ottowa getting a franchise are the key to future development, I will contradict that statement, they will be the nucleus of bringing the Circus to town, development is introducing participants to playing the game, formulating teams, putting in place league structures, organising pathways of excellence, as I state it is a long process, your owner must be very familiar with what the process involves of taking raw kids through to the elite level, it makes me wonder if he is serious about the longevity of the game in your country or he is just the Circus Master financing a pro club for his own pleasure? Day one good friend, it is up to the good folk of Toronto who have grown an affinity to this wonderful sport to get together, organise themselves and start the ball rolling, they can then take a plan along with a begging bowl to Mr Argyle and hope he buy's into the proposals and strategies put forward, you do want the game to last much longer than the span of a rich mans involvement, don't you? Day one good friend, it is a very good time to start! 

Initial suggestion, K'man - President, Canadian Junior Rugby League Association.

Well said, can't wait around for multi millionaires and multinationals to plan and fund things, the ordinary fans can lay the foundations of organising an inexpensive sport like RL, local and small businesses will get involved with support once they see all the good effort and benefits to local youth, not corporations....

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 5:07 PM, TIWIT said:

Currently it's 1. Who knows what SL might do at the end of the season should Toronto or Toulouse earn promotion. There is no guarantee they have to let them in

Sorry to be slow on the uptake, TIWIT, but who is currently the one foreign team in Super League Europe?  

[Kayakman]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Day One good friend, the longer a specific plan to "expand" the game through the locals and especially the kids the longer it will take to put down a firm foothold. 

Time and support you request, time is of the essence and support has to be performed as it is done here in the UK, it is ordinary people who are the lifeblood of the game over here forget the money people, the club owners, the CEO's, the club officials for those are the beneficiaries of the work done by volunteer's who initially look after the kids, sort out the league systems and simply organise everything that the production of youngsters who eventually will permiate through the systems to become our elite professional players come from.

Those who mention 5 to 10 years from the sowing of the seeds to reaping the harvest of pro players in Canada are either not familiar with how the system works or are simply deluding themselves, Rugby League is an organic product and like anything organic it takes time to evolve it simply cannot be fastracked, out of every 100 of the top 16 year olds in this country if 1 or 2 progress through to SL that will be a very good return. For Canada to reach that conversion rate it will take 2 to 3 generations.

You say TWP in SL and Ottowa getting a franchise are the key to future development, I will contradict that statement, they will be the nucleus of bringing the Circus to town, development is introducing participants to playing the game, formulating teams, putting in place league structures, organising pathways of excellence, as I state it is a long process, your owner must be very familiar with what the process involves of taking raw kids through to the elite level, it makes me wonder if he is serious about the longevity of the game in your country or he is just the Circus Master financing a pro club for his own pleasure? Day one good friend, it is up to the good folk of Toronto who have grown an affinity to this wonderful sport to get together, organise themselves and start the ball rolling, they can then take a plan along with a begging bowl to Mr Argyle and hope he buy's into the proposals and strategies put forward, you do want the game to last much longer than the span of a rich mans involvement, don't you? Day one good friend, it is a very good time to start! 

Initial suggestion, K'man - President, Canadian Junior Rugby League Association.

Thank you for the fine reply...not much to argue with there really...you make some good points.

But it has to start somewhere with something and that is where we are at over here...the beginning for League but not rugby; there are strong rugby roots in parts of this great land.

Those who know me know that I have more than done my rugby part, OVER MANY, MANY YEARS,  both as Coach, Ref and Administrator (countless hours like many others on here).

Give us a fair chance over here...let us have a fair go...we will "git er done!"  Take it to the bank! 

Harry, we know what we are doing over here so maybe you folks over there just need to lighten up a little, do a little less talkin (not you specifically Harry) and a little more listenin...and you folks just might learn a thang or two.

Watch us go!!!!!!!!

"Run With The Pack!"

[TIWIT]

5 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Sorry to be slow on the uptake, TIWIT, but who is currently the one foreign team in Super League Europe?  

The one in France.

[RP London]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

Those who mention 5 to 10 years from the sowing of the seeds to reaping the harvest of pro players in Canada are either not familiar with how the system works or are simply deluding themselves, Rugby League is an organic product and like anything organic it takes time to evolve it simply cannot be fastracked, out of every 100 of the top 16 year olds in this country if 1 or 2 progress through to SL that will be a very good return. For Canada to reach that conversion rate it will take 2 to 3 generations.

 

just for the record and not sure if it was me you were meaning.. the 5 to 10 years was not for players to start coming through but for the team to start looking seriously at spending more time on the junior/academy set up rather than rising through the leagues (unless forced, which I wouldn't argue against expect the one rule for one one for the others argument).. also it can take 5-10 years for those supporters who will get themselves setting things up to actually have the interest instilled enough (not going to happen in the first few years as they will want to be watching more, the habit/bug is being built) to want to and then get everything in place to run the sides. 

with regards the players actually coming through yes of course it will take longer, when I was in London early and mid 2000s and coaching we were talking about the generation of 6-7 year olds growing up with a ball in hand being the first full generation where we may see half backs appearing etc.. probably looking at about now.. but after the DO funding was pulled that is possibly a bit further down the line now.

[Harry Stottle]

Hi RP, no not you in regards to those who consider that Canada will be able to produce professional quality players in 5 to 10 years, I well remember the involvement you have advised us about as per your work with the game in London and know you will realise what has to be done to acheive it, but you have to admit that there are those who with no expierence of junior development pluck these hair brained notions out of mid air then smugly believe themselves. 

Do you agree with me that this journey from virtually nothing in Canada (or any other places for that matter where the game is taken to essentially what can be construed as virgin territories for RL) to having the abillity to produce player's year on year could be the best part of 3 generations?

You may well be correct in that it will take up to 10 years for the supporters to organise themselves into a strategic unit, and I can't help but thinking that the weather conditions in that part of the world can't help, the locals apart from those who may watch on TV will see no RL and especially live in the flesh RL for 6 months through their winter periods, that can't  be good for keeping the game in the forefront of their priorities to do.

As I have said previously in my opinion if multiple new teams come into being in virgin areas and want to play in SL I do not believe the game can support it in terms of player numbers without compromising on the standard we presently have/enjoy, and I also stated that SL clubs would not be willing to "offload" player's in the respect of expanding the game to their own detriment in quality, and I firmly believe that.

 

[The Future is League]

On 3/23/2019 at 12:07 AM, TIWIT said:

Currently it's 1. Who knows what SL might do at the end of the season should Toronto or Toulouse earn promotion. There is no guarantee they have to let them in

Like i have said before in the unlikely event if either Leeds or Wigan finish bottom of Super League they wont be relegated.

So the 2 options are reject the championship winning team on some trumped up rule that nobody knew anything about or go with a 13 team Super League.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi RP, no not you in regards to those who consider that Canada will be able to produce professional quality players in 5 to 10 years, I well remember the involvement you have advised us about as per your work with the game in London and know you will realise what has to be done to acheive it, but you have to admit that there are those who with no expierence of junior development pluck these hair brained notions out of mid air then smugly believe themselves. 

Do you agree with me that this journey from virtually nothing in Canada (or any other places for that matter where the game is taken to essentially what can be construed as virgin territories for RL) to having the abillity to produce player's year on year could be the best part of 3 generations?

You may well be correct in that it will take up to 10 years for the supporters to organise themselves into a strategic unit, and I can't help but thinking that the weather conditions in that part of the world can't help, the locals apart from those who may watch on TV will see no RL and especially live in the flesh RL for 6 months through their winter periods, that can't  be good for keeping the game in the forefront of their priorities to do.

As I have said previously in my opinion if multiple new teams come into being in virgin areas and want to play in SL I do not believe the game can support it in terms of player numbers without compromising on the standard we presently have/enjoy, and I also stated that SL clubs would not be willing to "offload" player's in the respect of expanding the game to their own detriment in quality, and I firmly believe that.

 

I think you are way off on that Harry...the opposite will actually happen and more lads over there will stay playing since there is an increased pathway to success...the quality of play will actually improve; not diminish.   I know you don't believe it but that is how this will actually play out.

[RP London]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

1. Hi RP, no not you in regards to those who consider that Canada will be able to produce professional quality players in 5 to 10 years, I well remember the involvement you have advised us about as per your work with the game in London and know you will realise what has to be done to acheive it, but you have to admit that there are those who with no expierence of junior development pluck these hair brained notions out of mid air then smugly believe themselves. 

2. Do you agree with me that this journey from virtually nothing in Canada (or any other places for that matter where the game is taken to essentially what can be construed as virgin territories for RL) to having the abillity to produce player's year on year could be the best part of 3 generations?

3. You may well be correct in that it will take up to 10 years for the supporters to organise themselves into a strategic unit, and I can't help but thinking that the weather conditions in that part of the world can't help, the locals apart from those who may watch on TV will see no RL and especially live in the flesh RL for 6 months through their winter periods, that can't  be good for keeping the game in the forefront of their priorities to do.

4. As I have said previously in my opinion if multiple new teams come into being in virgin areas and want to play in SL I do not believe the game can support it in terms of player numbers without compromising on the standard we presently have/enjoy, and I also stated that SL clubs would not be willing to "offload" player's in the respect of expanding the game to their own detriment in quality, and I firmly believe that.

 

1. yes tend to agree

2.yes it could take quite some time.. equally it depends on who/how you do it.. if it is done getting loads of kids involved then it could be much quicker if, like expansion areas in the UK, you are only dealing with small pockets of juniors etc then it will take longer. 

3. I think 10 years is being quite pessimistic. I would hope/think that this will start happening in the next year or so. The 6 months without it isnt great but if they get some good tv thats not so bad, equally how long is a canadian football season etc (NFL is only about 4 months unless you make the play offs. though of course you have college games too though i believe they run similar timetables..) It may take a little longer than normal but I still think they will have junior teams/networks starting to spring up in the next year or so. 

4. i think it is arguable.. when saying it will drop the standard then yes lower level players may be needed to step up, however, some will be ok just not tried at that level (Leeds have "super league standard players" by most peoples definitions this year, Wigan have champions and yet they are not performing to that level, London do not, yet are performing well.) Equally just because "less good" players are playing doesnt make the game less exciting necessarily. We may see a dip to start but the long term gain, if this is all done right (which is a big IF) is huge and IMHO is worth giving a go. 

[Big Picture]

On 3/25/2019 at 1:00 AM, The Future is League said:

What i would like to see done is clubs reduce the amount of overseas players they have in their squad by at least one a year.

If the Wolfpacks case i would like to see them with at least 5 Canadian born players in their first team squad from next season. I'm sure their must be union players in Canada who would be capable of playing to a decent standard of Rugby League with the right coaching, even if they weren't stand out players, and hopefully if these Canadian players were reasonably successful i'm sure it would encourage other Canadians to at least try our game.

In the Catalans case it would be a case of picking up young French talent from Elite 1 and the same with Toulouse.

The above things can be done it just needs the will to do it.

Obviously if any more Canadian or USA teams come into our system they would probably have to start with all overseas player, but possibly hold trials to find any talent out there from union or even possibly NFL

The Wolfpack did hold trials when they started and 3 or 4 players were given contracts, however none of them stuck around.