Clubs vote in favour of New York and Ottawa

[The Parksider]

16 hours ago, POR said:

According to the FEV website we (voted for NA clubs). FEATHERSTONE ROVERS officials have expressed their excitement for the sport’s future, following yesterday’s meeting of Championship and League 1 clubs, which found overall support for proposed overseas clubs. Rovers Chairman Mark Campbell said: “I’m delighted".........

I'd guess Campbell voted for TWP, New York and Ottawa simply because the gates for those matches would be more than the gates for Barrow, Swinton and Rochdale. I forgot Fev gave up their ambition when Nahaboo reneged on them and left, and Rovers became a Dual Reg club. 

On 13/04/2019 at 00:41, RobertAM said:

you're like a broken record content to see the game shrink to oblivion rather than expand to new markets simply because it doesnt fit with your blinkered vision of a "pure" RL. I've asked you this before and you never answer; what exactly would you do or what are you doing to grow the game in the heartland? Likely zip..because it's easier to complain and moan because you don't agree with the direction the doers are doing. Pathetic.

It's not about me Robert, it's easy to shoot the messenger and avoid the message that is loud and clear. Superleague do not want these phoney baloney clubs who offer nothing to the game here. It's a master stroke by the SL bosses to make the RFL & the Championship decide if they still want the American dream or not. It was Wood on behalf of the RFL who accepted TWP into the RFL and that was his decision and the Championship clubs to either resist or accept. They accepted it then and have accepted it now as they don't want to be the ones to be seen killing the American dream.

I have set out exactly how I would halt the demise of the game, which would be to stop it being ruined by this ridiculous nonsense about North American "expansion". Every empty NA club with no TV deal and no player development replacing English clubs who do underpin a big TV deal and do develop players is a nail in the coffin of the game here.

Why is it when Perez himself promised player development and TV deals in 2016 you now want to gloss over the fact he's delivered neither and still try to pretend these North American clubs are set to grow the game?? They simply are not going to do it and you aren't man enough to admit it.

15 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

As I put personally I don't think any new NA clubs should be allowed in unless the SL clubs make it perfectly clear they will be allowed into SL , be that through on field P and R or through genuine licence\franchise criteria , it is completely pointless to have the lower tiers vote these clubs in only for SL to then refuse to let them into SL , these clubs are only interested in being in SL , there is no point to them setting up to play three or four seasons of lower tier RL then folding due to having their ambitions stopped So they have to be given their criteria NOW , if that includes producing players they need to be told NOW 

No no no my friend. Get this right. In 2016 TWP were given the criteria of having to develop players and find a TV deal. In the interview with Dave Woods Perez was very clear that was his remit. He spoke of developing the players through grid iron conversions and he boasted of the massive NATV market he would be chasing. Nearly three years on neither has been achieved and there is no prospect of it being achieved, and therefore it is game over, not game about to be started.

Nobody wants to talk about it but Mr. McManus spoke out about the American clubs last Monday "TWP is a team of English and antipodeans owned by an Australian in Canada. They are facing strong opposition from professional Union clubs over there. The climate is a massive problem. For the first quarter of the season they can't play home games (and) you can't change the rules to suit one club". Superleague have spoken, they don't want them.....

"There is a huge difference between French clubs and North America"..."If Toulouse were to come in that would open up new avenues with French Broadcasters" "In France there is a meaning and infrastructure behind it. There's a semi-pro league, they are developing players". Superleague have spoken, they want France.

The whole NA thing has been a fantasy in the mind of one man which has been acted out by his bag carrier and now McManus has called it out and told the championship it's up to them to decide whether they want to keep them because Superleague favour Toulouse and France. I have the whole interview in front of me and yet I have to read post after post on here that wants to turn reality on it's head and pretend this vote by the Championship clubs to accept Ottawa and New York is the start of a Transatlantic Superleague!!!

Here's McManus again "I'm keen to see a second French club in Superleague, I would like to see Toulouse promoted to Superleague because that really would spur on growth!  Just what do people not understand about this!! The whole record of Superleague's announcements to the game has been based on the big clubs chairmen like Lenegan. Pearson, Moran, Davey and McManus taking it in turns to speak for Superleague, and Superleague were clear last monday expansion is to be France and not North America and so it's up to the Championship clubs whether they want to keep North American clubs in THEIR league.  NA expansion is over as far as SL are concerned, not beginning Mr. Gubrats.

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Its funny, every source out there on all of this is wrong apart from you. Again no links, no proof, just your opinions, 'suggestions' and words. I'm not sure why you keep posting about this on this thread rather than the one you were disproved on 2 years ago.

Back to the thread.

As far as I know, no online versions of Dr. Cosentino's books exist, my copy of the 1909 CRU rules was photocopied from the edition of Canadian Football: The Grey Cup Years which I found in my local library in Ottawa after I made contact with Dave Silcock who headed up the organization trying to get RL going here back in the 1990s.  If you want I can scan the relevant pages and upload them here, would that suit you?

Re the evolution of the rules as described by Football (sic) Canada, you can find that here, where you can read that the other Unions refused the Burnside rules in 1903 and again in 1905,  and in 1907 "The ORFU adopted the CRU rules" and many years later in 1921 "Rule changes included reducing players from 14 to 12 per side; putting ball into play by snapping it back; limit of 18 players with substitutes permitted freely".  Satisfied now?

[Omott91]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Superleague do not want these phoney baloney clubs who offer nothing to the game here.

I have set out exactly how I would halt the demise of the game, which would be to stop it being ruined by this ridiculous nonsense about North American "expansion". Every empty NA club with no TV deal and no player development replacing English clubs who do underpin a big TV deal and do develop players is a nail in the coffin of the game here.

Why is it when Perez himself promised player development and TV deals in 2016 you now want to gloss over the fact he's delivered neither and still try to pretend these North American clubs are set to grow the game?? They simply are not going to do it and you aren't man enough to admit it.

No no no my friend. Get this right. In 2016 TWP were given the criteria of having to develop players and find a TV deal. In the interview with Dave Woods Perez was very clear that was his remit. He spoke of developing the players through grid iron conversions and he boasted of the massive NATV market he would be chasing. Nearly three years on neither has been achieved and there is no prospect of it being achieved, and therefore it is game over, not game about to be started.

Nobody wants to talk about it but Mr. McManus spoke out about the American clubs last Monday "TWP is a team of English and antipodeans owned by an Australian in Canada. They are facing strong opposition from professional Union clubs over there. The climate is a massive problem. For the first quarter of the season they can't play home games (and) you can't change the rules to suit one club". Superleague have spoken, they don't want them.....

"There is a huge difference between French clubs and North America"..."If Toulouse were to come in that would open up new avenues with French Broadcasters" "In France there is a meaning and infrastructure behind it. There's a semi-pro league, they are developing players". Superleague have spoken, they want France.

The whole NA thing has been a fantasy in the mind of one man which has been acted out by his bag carrier and now McManus has called it out and told the championship it's up to them to decide whether they want to keep them because Superleague favour Toulouse and France. I have the whole interview in front of me and yet I have to read post after post on here that wants to turn reality on it's head and pretend this vote by the Championship clubs to accept Ottawa and New York is the start of a Transatlantic Superleague!!!

Here's McManus again "I'm keen to see a second French club in Superleague, I would like to see Toulouse promoted to Superleague because that really would spur on growth!  Just what do people not understand about this!! The whole record of Superleague's announcements to the game has been based on the big clubs chairmen like Lenegan. Pearson, Moran, Davey and McManus taking it in turns to speak for Superleague, and Superleague were clear last monday expansion is to be France and not North America and so it's up to the Championship clubs whether they want to keep North American clubs in THEIR league.  NA expansion is over as far as SL are concerned, not beginning Mr. Gubrats.

I think the problem is you are not man enough to admit when you're wrong and you're too stubborn to listen and accept other points of view. I can't wait to see you backpedal and eat your own words sooner rather than later.

Super league have not spoken. You have one or two quotes from Mcmanus and now both he and you speak for Super league? It's really convenient for you to ignore all the positive quotes and comments around NA expansion.

[RobertAM]

I have set out exactly how I would halt the demise of the game, which would be to stop it being ruined by this ridiculous nonsense about North American "expansion". Every empty NA club with no TV deal and no player development replacing English clubs who do underpin a big TV deal and do develop players is a nail in the coffin of the game here.

 

Absurd statement. The game was declining long before TWP came on the scene due to indifference by a shrinking base of fans. Game attendance and TV viewership has been increased by the presence of the Wolfpack so in fact they are helping to halt the decline and turn it around - adding 2 more NA teams will likely exponentially increase both again.  Player development will come but of course it will take a long long time.  And YOU make the message about YOU because you continually shoot other opinions down.

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So you can have as many Canadians as you like ?

But that isn't my point , as I put the SL club owners OWE it to the new investors to declare NOW what they need to achieve to be accepted into SL 

Why?

[TIWIT]

McManus speaks for Super League because Parksider agrees with what he says. If he said he favoured Toronto over Toulouse Parky would ignore him. Just like he ignores everyone else who doesn't agree with him. Poor fellow must have a persecution complex by now.

[bbfaz]

On 13/04/2019 at 03:33, Captain Survival said:

Perez indicated in his remarks in Salford that he was looking to really grow the game at all levels and Ottawa already has a base of rugby at youth to university levels so he is not starting from scratch.   Having a pro team will just redouble interest in the sport.  In my opinion it will be easier to grow youth leagues in Ottawa - the city is just better set up for it.

I haven't seen this challenged at all.  What base of RUGBY LEAGUE does Ottawa have?  As far as I am aware, there was a team a few years back that collapsed.  Is it not the case that there's is barely any Rugby League played at amateur level at all in Ontario and none in Ottawa?

[bbfaz]

4 hours ago, TIWIT said:

McManus speaks for Super League because Parksider agrees with what he says. If he said he favoured Toronto over Toulouse Parky would ignore him. Just like he ignores everyone else who doesn't agree with him. Poor fellow must have a persecution complex by now.

Parky is not complimentary of these Super League chairman.  If you'd read his posts, he has made the point that Super League is essentially controlled by Leeds, Warrington, Saints and Wigan, due to their advantages in revenue.  They all tend to speak as a group and when stuff like this comes along, one of the owners/chairmen/CEOs is wheeled out to give the opinion of the group.  The RFL doesn't control Super League, the key owners control Super League.  The only club of similar size is Hull but their owner Adam Pearson knows his own mind and seems to stick with Hull KR.   Even Pearson's not on board with Canada.

This is where there has been a failure.  You have the key stakeholders in Super League trying to create what they see as a better product that can compete with Rugby Union in England.  It seems that Toronto is a distraction from that aim.  I feel as though they see it as all sizzle and no steak.  One of the top SL chairmen - people who tend to mince their words - have called out the ability of the Wolfpack to comply with even basic operational rules and the RL infrastructure in Canada, which is frankly non-existent.

If you look at this thread with even a vaguely critical eye, it's all ifs, buts and maybes passed off as fact.  While I may know that Toronto Lynx did dick-all in the A-League but Toronto FC drew big because it was "major league", I also know that football was a massive sport in the immigrant communities.  It's the world game and everybody will support it.  There is a large, diverse but poorly-funded amateur system but Canadian-born and Canadian-bred players have played in top leagues.  The issue is that every Canadian soccer league has fallen down because they've never landed a big TV deal and they need a lot more paying customers to support a six timezone league in a country where it's expensive to fly cross-country.

Anyway, I digress.  Rugby League doesn't have those advantages in Canada, it's starting cold.  No doubt Toronto has been well-marketed, heavily-backed and well-sponsored.  They've clearly not played the political game.

[North but south]

7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Nobody wants to talk about it but Mr. McManus spoke out about the American clubs last Monday "TWP is a team of English and antipodeans owned by an Australian in Canada. They are facing strong opposition from professional Union clubs over there. The climate is a massive problem. For the first quarter of the season they can't play home games (and) you can't change the rules to suit one club". Superleague have spoken, they don't want them.....

Nobody talking about these because its a stupid comment. How many st Helen's fans complained about Ben barber last year because he wasn't English. The strong rugby union? Even your figures show 0.04% of people play rugby union. that's not strong, it's a bit like saying Salford attendance is low due to the local ping pong team.

He is right you can't change the rules for one club, unless it's an established team like Wigan then it's ok.

[bbfaz]

18 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

If Wigan Leeds saints and wire speak with one voice...

“Super League will be an international competition in five years’ time,” Lenagan said.

“I believe at that time, as well as the English clubs, we’ll have Toulouse, we’ll have Perpignan, we’ll have Toronto, we’ll probably have New York within that time scale.

There's two things I don't like about Ian Lenegan.  His face.  I've no doubt he's playing both sides.

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Why?

 

6 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Why?

Simply common courtesy , it is only right that these clubs know if they will be allowed into SL before they start 

[GUBRATS]

8 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 

No no no my friend. Get this right. In 2016 TWP were given the criteria of having to develop players and find a TV deal. In the interview with Dave Woods Perez was very clear that was his remit. He spoke of developing the players through grid iron conversions and he boasted of the massive NATV market he would be chasing. Nearly three years on neither has been achieved and there is no prospect of it being achieved, and therefore it is game over, not game about to be started.

 

 

Here's McManus again "I'm keen to see a second French club in Superleague, I would like to see Toulouse promoted to Superleague because that really would spur on growth!  Just what do people not understand about this!! The whole record of Superleague's announcements to the game has been based on the big clubs chairmen like Lenegan. Pearson, Moran, Davey and McManus taking it in turns to speak for Superleague, and Superleague were clear last monday expansion is to be France and not North America and so it's up to the Championship clubs whether they want to keep North American clubs in THEIR league.  NA expansion is over as far as SL are concerned, not beginning Mr. Gubrats.

The thing is I'm not interested in the musings of individual SL owners , isn't this the reason they appointed Elstone ? , I was under the assumption he was the SL spokesman , if they want to be taken seriously , and we assume they do then let's see something official 

[bobbruce]

On 11/04/2019 at 20:11, John Rhino said:

Can we expect a fresh union push in North America to ensure we don't succeed?

I would not be surprised 

They won’t need to they will just wait until we force these clubs out. Then just step in and get them to switch on mass to RU. 

[bbfaz]

31 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The thing is I'm not interested in the musings of individual SL owners , isn't this the reason they appointed Elstone ? , I was under the assumption he was the SL spokesman , if they want to be taken seriously , and we assume they do then let's see something official 

Elstone hasn't done a major interview with January.  The only thing I've seen on this was the Adam Pearson article on this very site in the week which suggested Elstone and several Super League owners are concerned about this.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, bbfaz said:

Elstone hasn't done a major interview with January.  The only thing I've seen on this was the Adam Pearson article on this very site in the week which suggested Elstone and several Super League owners are concerned about this.

But again , that was an individual club owner , and a ' suggestion ' , they need to grow some balls , sit down ALL together , decide their ( SL ) position and have their appointed spokesman Mr Elstone make a binding announcement , then they , the new investors and us the fans can all get on with the future 

[Blind side johnny]

14 hours ago, Kayakman said:

Is it not the same as the other teams?..I assume RFL quotas of non British players or something...I know you have a great knowledge of the game and if you say its different I'm listening....you saying different?

Most people on here couldn't accurately or correctly define who is a quota player and who isn't, so don't worry about it.

[bbfaz]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

But again , that was an individual club owner , and a ' suggestion ' , they need to grow some balls , sit down ALL together , decide their ( SL ) position and have their appointed spokesman Mr Elstone make a binding announcement , then they , the new investors and us the fans can all get on with the future 

I know you're beating the "clarity" drum but the league's position has been made clear since day 1.  Toronto need to show they are viable long-term on any number of criteria.  Unfortunately, the big clubs in Super League rule the roost.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, bbfaz said:

I know you're beating the "clarity" drum but the league's position has been made clear since day 1.  Toronto need to show they are viable long-term on any number of criteria.  Unfortunately, the big clubs in Super League rule the roost.

' the league ' being ?

[bbfaz]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

' the league ' being ?

Now you're just being obtuse.  I expect it out of canoeboy but not out of you.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

Now you're just being obtuse.  I expect it out of canoeboy but not out of you.

Do you mean the RFL or SL ?

[bbfaz]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Do you mean the RFL or SL ?

Super League.  Nobody calls the RFL "the League".

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, bbfaz said:

Super League.  Nobody calls the RFL "the League".

They might have been clear on Toronto ( although that would have been pre Elstone ) but again only individually , things have now changed , they are now very much a collective and must speak with a single voice if they want to be taken seriously , and 2 more clubs gives a potential 5 overseas clubs wanting and expecting to be in SL , decision time is now 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

19 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

Super League.  Nobody calls the RFL "the League".

To be fair, I thought you were referring to the RFL at first.

[bbfaz]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

They might have been clear on Toronto ( although that would have been pre Elstone ) but again only individually , things have now changed , they are now very much a collective and must speak with a single voice if they want to be taken seriously , and 2 more clubs gives a potential 5 overseas clubs wanting and expecting to be in SL , decision time is now 

If you're making an argument that the circumstances of a pre-launch Eric Perez-led "it'll never work" Toronto Wolfpack and the reality of a David Argyle-led cashed-up Toronto Wolfpack knocking on the door of Super League then I agree. Then again, I've never been convinced that Toronto will ever be able to pay their sizeable bills on their own.

Problem is, if they did come up with convergence criteria for how Toronto can come into Super League and not damage themselves or the league, it wouldn't be good enough.  What a lot of people in this thread want is special treatment.  They want special dispensation.  They want people to turn a blind eye to any problems and just embrace it anyway.  If you go the other way, there are people who want them to face a harsher set of requirements or not be let in at all. Never the twain shall meet.

[bbfaz]

1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

People dont want special treatment they want fair treatment and the status quo  as it is isn't fair. It would affect clubs like Toronto disproportionately 

Explain this more fully because you've made a sweeping statement and expect to get away from it.

Fair enough if you think I'm trying to have it both ways on Lenagan.  I probably am to be fair.