Lack of respect for referees.

[Ant]

Refs seem to have no issue in sin binning Giants players for dissent...

[Dave T]

Interesting thread.

[deluded pom?]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Interesting thread.

Not so much interesting Dave more saddening. We’ll be lucky to have enough refs to officiate a full round of SL let alone thinking about having two refs per game the way things are going. Ref bashing seems to be not only accepted but also encouraged by people who should know better. 

[RP London]

21 hours ago, Trojan said:

Well if that's the law then the law is an ass.  The ball hit the Wigan player, IMO making a it knock on by the Warrington player, surely Wigan should be entitled to advantage.  After all if a kicked ball hits a player (rather then he plays at it) the tackle count is reset to zero.

Yes the law is an ass.. as has been pointed out by everyone around it.. but it highlights my point. Have an issue with the law but dont blame the ref for applying it, if he hadnt then another section of the supporters would be up in arms. He is in a no win situation. But its a massive problem of understanding with the crowds, they are wrong many times on the laws of the game.. you hear it a lot in the crowds with people complaining about something but they are actually wrong but for the whole match they whinge and complain yet they are the ones in the wrong either with their interpretation or with the actual law itself 

[RP London]

21 hours ago, Trojan said:

Fair play. I wasn't aware.  But you must admit Wigan got no real advantage from a Warrington offence.  Something wrong there.  Doesn't alter my opinion of Hicks BT|W.

This, without picking on you Trojan, makes the point we are all making. You dont know the rules properly but are happy to critisise the refs.. You didnt know this rule (about the knock on, i didnt either, and you didnt know free play had been scrapped [not that it would make a difference here as the wigan player knocked on immediately so no free play advantage to be had]) so could easily have been one of those screaming bluue murder on the terraces without realising that 1. the call was correct and 2. that what you were screaming for was no longer an option. 

As i say I am not picking on you here but it is a good example of what we are saying. 

Refs make mistakes but it is not actually as many as people think it is when you see the laws. The laws on the other hand need to be easier and more sensible but in the end the refs are going to know them better than 99% of the people in the crowd (unless you are at a tranmere rovers game obvs)

[Eleftherios]

19 hours ago, Ant said:

Refs seem to have no issue in sin binning Giants players for dissent...

I thought Broughy had left!

[Trojan]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

This, without picking on you Trojan, makes the point we are all making. You dont know the rules properly but are happy to critisise the refs.. You didnt know this rule (about the knock on, i didnt either, and you didnt know free play had been scrapped [not that it would make a difference here as the wigan player knocked on immediately so no free play advantage to be had]) so could easily have been one of those screaming bluue murder on the terraces without realising that 1. the call was correct and 2. that what you were screaming for was no longer an option. 

As i say I am not picking on you here but it is a good example of what we are saying. 

Refs make mistakes but it is not actually as many as people think it is when you see the laws. The laws on the other hand need to be easier and more sensible but in the end the refs are going to know them better than 99% of the people in the crowd (unless you are at a tranmere rovers game obvs)

Sometimes I wonder how many are mistakes and how many are calculated errors to even things up.  TBH Thaler apart, I think our refs are a pretty poor lot.  Especially in the Championship. As for not knowing the rules, who does?  They are constantly changing them.  I played the game so think I have a fair appreciation of what's right and what's wrong, and I see a lot of wrong.  If Hicks wasn't wrong, he was being pedantic.  And gave a decision that effectively disadvantaged a team. The ball when dislodged is likely to hit something. knee, foot? 

Let me give you an example.  Team a. knocks on.  The ref ignores it, and their player is tackled and plays the ball.  They go on to score.  He then awards the knock on.  He can't do that.  But he did.  I was there.  I saw it. That wasn't a mistake.  If was a deliberate act.

Team a. is penalised at a scrum, team b. shape up to kick at goal, although the tee hasn't come on.  Team a. back off, the ref then signals differential penalty.  and team b. run through the non existent defence to score a try.

Those are possibly the two worst examples I've witnessed recently.  But fairly typical of the standard.  Is there any wonder fans abuse refs?

[Dave T]

21 minutes ago, Trojan said:

1. Let me give you an example.  Team a. knocks on.  The ref ignores it, and their player is tackled and plays the ball.  They go on to score.  He then awards the knock on.  He can't do that.  But he did.  I was there.  I saw it. That wasn't a mistake.  If was a deliberate act.

2. Team a. is penalised at a scrum, team b. shape up to kick at goal, although the tee hasn't come on.  Team a. back off, the ref then signals differential penalty.  and team b. run through the non existent defence to score a try.

Those are possibly the two worst examples I've witnessed recently.  But fairly typical of the standard.  Is there any wonder fans abuse refs?

How we recollect events isn't always how they actually happened, you'd need to provide evidence of these tbh Trojan for them to have any credibility.

On Incident 1 - I just don't believe it happened that way. Sorry to not believe you, but I believe you are mistaken.

On incident 2 - I'm not sure what the issue is here. Unless the ref has signalled that they are kicking for goal then the defence is 100% to blame here.

[RP London]

42 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Sometimes I wonder how many are mistakes and how many are calculated errors to even things up.  TBH Thaler apart, I think our refs are a pretty poor lot.  Especially in the Championship. As for not knowing the rules, who does?  They are constantly changing them.  I played the game so think I have a fair appreciation of what's right and what's wrong, and I see a lot of wrong.  If Hicks wasn't wrong, he was being pedantic.  And gave a decision that effectively disadvantaged a team. The ball when dislodged is likely to hit something. knee, foot? 

Let me give you an example.  Team a. knocks on.  The ref ignores it, and their player is tackled and plays the ball.  They go on to score.  He then awards the knock on.  He can't do that.  But he did.  I was there.  I saw it. That wasn't a mistake.  If was a deliberate act.

Team a. is penalised at a scrum, team b. shape up to kick at goal, although the tee hasn't come on.  Team a. back off, the ref then signals differential penalty.  and team b. run through the non existent defence to score a try.

Those are possibly the two worst examples I've witnessed recently.  But fairly typical of the standard.  Is there any wonder fans abuse refs?

I also played the game, but i am not sure the relevance of that as many players dont know the rules 100% plus, as you say, they change a lot. It is up to the refs to be educated in this by the RFL and they will have courses throughout the winter to make sure they are up to speed. If they are not doing that then that is the fault of the RFL and they should be held to account for that, by my understanding everything is being done as it should be in this regards. 

Hicks was not wrong, pedanticism is what the refs are employed for, to ignore the rule is to be wrong. the rule is rubbish, i dont think you will get much argument on that, but to berate them on one hand for not following the rules then on the other for following the rules is just daft IMHO. It did not disadvantage Wigan as they broke a rule it would have been to disadvantage Warrington to have given the try, pedantic maybe but a pedant is just a stickler for the rules, a pedant by definition is correct (and yes i am aware of the irony of what i am saying).

To suggest a ref is "evening things up" is to suggest bias of the referrees which is quite serious and would need to be backed up by proof, sorry. I just dont see it, some are harsh decisions some may even be a genuine mistake (which we all make) but to accuse them of this is quite serious IMHO. 

with regards your examples, as with Dave T i think you would need to provide proof of this.

1. as with Dave and for the same reasons i simply dont believe this, sorry.  

2. equally you may have missed him signalling the differential initally as may the defence. this is not his fault but equally, and as someone who has played the game yourself, you know that until he signals for the kick to goal you do not set up as such, there have been plenty of times that players have tricked the other team by setting as if to kick only for them to stand up as they were "tying their shoelaces" and play on. 

 

[Trojan]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

I also played the game, but i am not sure the relevance of that as many players dont know the rules 100% plus, as you say, they change a lot. It is up to the refs to be educated in this by the RFL and they will have courses throughout the winter to make sure they are up to speed. If they are not doing that then that is the fault of the RFL and they should be held to account for that, by my understanding everything is being done as it should be in this regards. 

Hicks was not wrong, pedanticism is what the refs are employed for, to ignore the rule is to be wrong. the rule is rubbish, i dont think you will get much argument on that, but to berate them on one hand for not following the rules then on the other for following the rules is just daft IMHO. It did not disadvantage Wigan as they broke a rule it would have been to disadvantage Warrington to have given the try, pedantic maybe but a pedant is just a stickler for the rules, a pedant by definition is correct (and yes i am aware of the irony of what i am saying).

To suggest a ref is "evening things up" is to suggest bias of the referrees which is quite serious and would need to be backed up by proof, sorry. I just dont see it, some are harsh decisions some may even be a genuine mistake (which we all make) but to accuse them of this is quite serious IMHO. 

with regards your examples, as with Dave T i think you would need to provide proof of this.

1. as with Dave and for the same reasons i simply dont believe this, sorry.  

2. equally you may have missed him signalling the differential initally as may the defence. this is not his fault but equally, and as someone who has played the game yourself, you know that until he signals for the kick to goal you do not set up as such, there have been plenty of times that players have tricked the other team by setting as if to kick only for them to stand up as they were "tying their shoelaces" and play on. 

 

Why would I quote it if it didn't happen?  This really is the limit. Not content with calling me a fool, you  are also effectively calling me a liar, which is actionable.  Referees in the past have admitted to "evening things up"  There is no proof except I was there and saw it happen.

[RP London]

12 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Why would I quote it if it didn't happen?  This really is the limit. Not content with calling me a fool, you  are also effectively calling me a liar, which is actionable.  Referees in the past have admitted to "evening things up"  There is no proof except I was there and saw it happen.

but the point is you are in the crowd and see it once and in doing that you can miss the subtleties of what is happening, or not know exactly what they have been pulled up for. The knock on you talk about in example 1 could have been one later, in the next play, or something you have not seen. It is the problem of the crowd, there have been plenty of times I have sat in a crowd and thought "thats a ridiculous decision" then on later seeing it either on tv or on the big screen or frankly from my mate pointing it out next to me, i have simply missed what the ref has actually seen. With example 2 I have already explained how I dont have a major issue with it and it doesnt seem to be an issue with the rules or the ref but more one of the defensive team acting before they should. 

You are using your own experience and I am using mine. I am not being insulting and certainly dont mean to be towards you but pointing out that calling out the refs without knowing EXACTLY what they are calling or the rules is wrong IMHO (again without being insulting you have already admitted that 2 of the rules [big ones in this case] you were unware of! so berating the ref when actually he was right to call it as he did)

I dont know all the rules (and again as you said you played the game so did I), I dont see the game from the position the ref is in and without being able to ask him I dont always know what the exact infringement is that he is penalising. All of these lead me to trust the ref and trust that he knows more than me and hence i would not berate him from either the side lines or the computer. 

 

[deluded pom?]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

On incident 2 - I'm not sure what the issue is here. Unless the ref has signalled that they are kicking for goal then the defence is 100% to blame here.

Agree. All penalties at a scrum, barring foul play, are differential. The defending team should know that.

[Dave T]

41 minutes ago, Trojan said:

Why would I quote it if it didn't happen?  This really is the limit. Not content with calling me a fool, you  are also effectively calling me a liar, which is actionable.  Referees in the past have admitted to "evening things up"  There is no proof except I was there and saw it happen.

Nobody is calling you a liar. But eye-witnesses can be unreliable. 

It is easy to make a mistake when watching a game live. Particularly as ref signals are not alwasy that clear.

[Trojan]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Nobody is calling you a liar. But eye-witnesses can be unreliable. 

It is easy to make a mistake when watching a game live. Particularly as ref signals are not alwasy that clear.

Let's absolutely clear.  The first incident, there was no doubt the knock on occurred before the PTB, and there was no offence afterwards.

The second incident, the player shaped to kick at goal, the defence backed off, and then and only then did the referee signal the differential penalty.  Whether he'd signalled it earlier I don't know, there is no doubt that the player shaped to kick at goal.

Do you think I am blind, or having hallucinations?

[Dave T]

Just now, Trojan said:

Let's absolutely clear.  The first incident, there was no doubt the knock on occurred before the PTB, and there was no offence afterwards.

The second incident, the player shaped to kick at goal, the defence backed off, and then and only then did the referee signal the differential penalty.  Whether he'd signalled it earlier I don't know, there is no doubt that the player shaped to kick at goal.

Do you think I am blind, or having hallucinations?

What do you mean shaped to kick at goal? Had the referee signalled the kick at goal, because that is the only relevant thing here.

[Trojan]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

What do you mean shaped to kick at goal? Had the referee signalled the kick at goal, because that is the only relevant thing here.

The ref blew his whistle for a penalty. The kicker indicated a kick at goal, the TJ's went behind the sticks, and then the ref signalled the differential penalty. The kicker then tapped it and effectively trotted over the line.  I was there, it happened less than 10 metres from where I was standing

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Trojan said:

The ref blew his whistle for a penalty. The kicker indicated a kick at goal, the TJ's went behind the sticks, and then the ref signalled the differential penalty. The kicker then tapped it and effectively trotted over the line.  I was there, it happened less than 10 metres from where I was standing

Ok, this is already different. The touchjudges do not move based on the kicker, they move based on the ref signalling a kick at goal (that's what his actual signal represents). Did he do that? 

So a try was awarded with the TJs both stood behind the sticks? Genuinely? 

Which game was this, as there will surely be video of the try with the TJs stood near the score?

[bobbruce]

4 minutes ago, Trojan said:

The ref blew his whistle for a penalty. The kicker indicated a kick at goal, the TJ's went behind the sticks, and then the ref signalled the differential penalty. The kicker then tapped it and effectively trotted over the line.  I was there, it happened less than 10 metres from where I was standing

Fev scored a very similar try against Saints  early to mid 80s. Fev awarded a penalty shaped to kick at goal all the Saints players bar a couple came together in the middle. They then tapped it and scored in the corner. It’s just ###### poor by the defending team. 

[Trojan]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Ok, this is already different. The touchjudges do not move based on the kicker, they move based on the ref signalling a kick at goal (that's what his actual signal represents). Did he do that? 

So a try was awarded with the TJs both stood behind the sticks? Genuinely? 

Which game was this, as there will surely be video of the try with the TJs stood near the score?

It was a game at Fev about 2007.  I think Celtic Crusaders were the away team.  The refs were bending over backwards to get them into SL.  When you don't support a side in the lower leagues, you don't see these anomalies. 

[Trojan]

1 minute ago, bobbruce said:

Fev scored a very similar try against Saints  early to mid 80s. Fev awarded a penalty shaped to kick at goal all the Saints players bar a couple came together in the middle. They then tapped it and scored in the corner. It’s just ###### poor by the defending team. 

I'm not saying the Fev  defence were entirely blameless.  But it was only when they'd backed off that the ref signalled the differential penalty.

[Lowdesert]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Ok, this is already different. The touchjudges do not move based on the kicker, they move based on the ref signalling a kick at goal (that's what his actual signal represents). Did he do that? 

So a try was awarded with the TJs both stood behind the sticks? Genuinely? 

Which game was this, as there will surely be video of the try with the TJs stood near the score?

There will also be a picture of Trojan directly behind the posts, 10 m away.

Troj.  Can you post a picture of yourself, dressed exactly as you were that day please?

[bobbruce]

3 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

There will also be a picture of Trojan directly behind the posts, 10 m away.

Troj.  Can you post a picture of yourself, dressed exactly as you were that day please?

Must resist.....

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Trojan said:

It was a game at Fev about 2007.  I think Celtic Crusaders were the away team.  The refs were bending over backwards to get them into SL.  When you don't support a side in the lower leagues, you don't see these anomalies. 

The 2007 Fev v Crusaders game is in full on YouTube as was covered by Sky. They may have played more than once at Fev that year, but there was no such incident in the above game. 

What did surprise me was Sky covered this NL2 game with first choice commentary team at the time!

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Trojan said:

I'm not saying the Fev  defence were entirely blameless.  But it was only when they'd backed off that the ref signalled the differential penalty.

I still don't understand why both TJs went behind the sticks if the ref hadn't told them to?

[RP London]

26 minutes ago, Trojan said:

It was a game at Fev about 2007.  I think Celtic Crusaders were the away team.  The refs were bending over backwards to get them into SL.  When you don't support a side in the lower leagues, you don't see these anomalies. 

Trojan, you say i am calling you a liar (which at no point have I ) and then say its "actionable" which i find interesting.. what actions can you take?

yet you are happy to not be sure of the team and yet say that the refs were bending over backwards to get them into SL.. 1 do you have proof of the fact they were doing this to Celtic. 2. if you are not sure that it was Celtic then why bring that in, if it wasnt then who were they favouring that day except "not your team"

You've added more info which is interesting for sure, but as with Dave I cannot understand the chain of events at all.. and equally if it was exactly as you say then do you know that no action was taken (for sure) by the match review panel on this incident? as we have stated before everyone makes mistakes its just how regular and how deliberate he may well have been heavily punished for said cock up for example. 

before people have a go at refs I just wish they would get all their facts right, which is the point of what we have been saying. You yourself had a go at the ref yet his decision was right, your justification showed that you didnt know 2 of the rules (one of which had changed) which is proof to the point that until all the facts are known it is unfair to have a go.