A fake Manchester team will harm Rugby League

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

I listened to the Total RL Podcast today and as someone who knows Rugby League in Manchester this is my response to the like of Ralph Rimmer (or whoever suggested Manchester Rangers take over a team),  the Robbie Hunter-Pauls and Andy Mazey. 

Taking a team that is not in Manchester and calling it Manchester will fail.

It will alienate any existing support a club has. 

Clubs like Swinton, Oldham and Rochdale have ageing fan bases and would be very hurt to see their clubs lose their identity.

I cant see them switching to a Manchester club. 

Local people in Manchester wont be interested in travelling outside the city limits to watch a club because you call it Manchester.

Manchester Rangers worked because it had local involvement with people in Manchester and had a good city central location.

That was why businesses and people came to the games and wanted to be involved with the club.

It had the right location and the backing of the council.  

Even then it was a development that would grow from the ground up.

Never planned to be a big bang.

Rugby League needs a club in Manchester, but it has to be done right.

If we cant accept a club that could start with 300-500 fans building over 5-10 years then we need to build the popularity of the sport in the city.

If the door is closed to a genuine Manchester club entering the league then better we spend 10 years growing the sport in the city.

Launching a fake club doomed to failure would knock back any chance of a real club being allowed to launch.

Preparation work and development is the key.

Back the new High Schools League, develop more junior clubs like Belle Vue Bees for kids.

Have a full time development officer.  Get on board with the great Varsity games that have been held at the regional arena.

Not long ago Manchester had three senior teams, it currently has none.

We need reverse that trend and get more amateur clubs created in the city and more school kids playing Rugby League.

Get more locals going to Grand Finals and International games in the city.

The city has tremendous potential we should not waste it. 

It is a vital location for media coverage.

Failure to plan, is planning to fail.

Rugby League likes to go off half-cocked.

Otherwise it will be we tried Rugby League in Manchester it failed, lets not do it again.....

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

51 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

 Local people in Manchester wont be interested in travelling outside the city limits to watch a club because you call it Manchester.

Are local people in Swinton interested in traveling outside the town limits to watch s club called the Swinton?

[Colin James]

4 hours ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

  more locals going to Grand Finals and International games in the city.

When was the last time either of those took place in Manchester? You can't on one hand say people won't travel outside the 'city limits' then in the next breath refer to Old Trafford, a stadium in the neighbouring borough of Trafford which incidentally is the same borough that Swinton currently play in.

[JohnM]

. Clubs like Swinton, Oldham and Rochdale have ageing fan bases and would be very hurt to see their clubs lose their identity

The hurt will be temporary, won't it, as nature will ensure disappearance of the aging fan base.  

Why not at least conduct the mind experiment of becoming Manchester? 

[EastLondonMike]

I haven't heard the podcast mentioned in the OP, or really looked too deeply into the story around Swinton re-branding as 'Manchester'. So i don' have a great deal of knowledge on the subject, but, the only question i would have around such a move, initially, would be around what data has been produced to show this re-brand will capture a new/latent audience in Manchester and grow the club considerably more than it is currently capable of doing as Swinton. And the subsequent strategy for doing that.

Without either it's just another Idea with no substance. The classic RL approach. Change the name and location and expect thousands to swarm through the turnstiles.

In the Love Rugby League article about the possible rebrand it suggests Swinton Chairman Mazey "believes the Lions will gain bigger crowds and attract more sponsors by putting themselves out to the public as a Manchester club".

This needs to be expanded upon.

[Rupert Prince]

There are 4 teams in the immediate wider Manchester area (if you see what I mean) ... Swinton, Salford. Rochdale Oldham.

Please let these historic clubs continue as best they can in a viable environment.  I wish them well.  But why on earth cannot these wonderful clubs (and Oldham gave me one of the most, if not the worst, miserable cup experiences as a Wigan fan ever) create something brilliant between them. Salford and Swinton together... and Oldham and Rochdale.  Create 2 super teams... Wests and Norths !! 

Clearly they would be associated to the wider metropolitan area of Manchester... but if their lower/associated clubs survived as their feeders I do not see them being tarnished or belittled or done down with in any way.   Existing fans can support their own and their senior 'cousin' and new ones encouraged.

Please do listen. Please do try.  I do mean well.  I do want these teams to live on.  I do not want them to die.  Please please do think about it.

I implore you.

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

There are 4 teams in the immediate wider Manchester area (if you see what I mean) ... Swinton, Salford. Rochdale Oldham.

Please let these historic clubs continue as best they can in a viable environment.  I wish them well.  But why on earth cannot these wonderful clubs (and Oldham gave me one of the most, if not the worst, miserable cup experiences as a Wigan fan ever) create something brilliant between them. Salford and Swinton together... and Oldham and Rochdale.  Create 2 super teams... Wests and Norths !! 

Clearly they would be associated to the wider metropolitan area of Manchester... but if their lower/associated clubs survived as their feeders I do not see them being tarnished or belittled or done down with in any way.   Existing fans can support their own and their senior 'cousin' and new ones encouraged.

Please do listen. Please do try.  I do mean well.  I do want these teams to live on.  I do not want them to die.  Please please do think about it.

I implore you.

How does it create something brilliant between them? 4 clubs that don't own a ground, have few fans and no money. It's pooling diddly squat with what few fans they have being completely alienated. Each of those clubs should concentrate on building from the ground up and representing the areas that they represent.

A proper Manchester club building from the ground up with no baggage is a much better way forward and this can use rivalries with neighbouring clubs. Swinton properly moving to Manchester and doing that also makes sense if they intend in doing it right. However if it's just a lazy case of renaming to Manchester and playing at a RU ground in Sale it's going to be a complete waste of time and a failure.

[Rupert Prince]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

How does it create something brilliant between them? 4 clubs that don't own a ground, have few fans and no money. It's pooling diddly squat with what few fans they have being completely alienated. Each of those clubs should concentrate on building from the ground up and representing the areas that they represent.

A proper Manchester club building from the ground up with no baggage is a much better way forward and this can use rivalries with neighbouring clubs. Swinton properly moving to Manchester and doing that also makes sense if they intend in doing it right. However if it's just a lazy case of renaming to Manchester and playing at a RU ground in Sale it's going to be a complete waste of time and a failure.

Well it won't do anything if they don't try.

On balance I read that what you are doing is just talking in circles.  Sorry.

[overtheborder]

For me if we're talking about a team associating itself with a city via a rebrand, then I think any money you're looking at throwing at a rebrand might as well go into marketing and looking to expand your current setup. The potential to alienate a fan base aside, I just don't think it's needed. What i think is needed is constant growth, building momentum with small wins until they combine to form a big win. Not a city-linked rebrand. You have an existing fanbase, look to expand on that. You don't really need to be associated with a big place to be successful in sport, especially RL. Wigan, Castleford and Warrington for instance all do OK, but not because of being associated with a major city. I don't think that matters. If you're a big enough club you can attract people to travel, but I just don't think the name really matters.

[JohnM]

MK Dons. Just been promoted. Great stadium. 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

10 hours ago, Damien said:

How does it create something brilliant between them? 4 clubs that don't own a ground, have few fans and no money. It's pooling diddly squat with what few fans they have being completely alienated. Each of those clubs should concentrate on building from the ground up and representing the areas that they represent.

A proper Manchester club building from the ground up with no baggage is a much better way forward and this can use rivalries with neighbouring clubs. Swinton properly moving to Manchester and doing that also makes sense if they intend in doing it right. However if it's just a lazy case of renaming to Manchester and playing at a RU ground in Sale it's going to be a complete waste of time and a failure.

Its the failure that worries me.

I want Rugby League to start learning to do things properly.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

 

 

14 hours ago, JohnM said:

. Clubs like Swinton, Oldham and Rochdale have ageing fan bases and would be very hurt to see their clubs lose their identity

The hurt will be temporary, won't it, as nature will ensure disappearance of the aging fan base.  

Why not at least conduct the mind experiment of becoming Manchester? 

Wigan are a failing Manchester club perhaps they could rebrand to Manchester?

 

[Sports Prophet]

So Manchester Rangers and the other Manchester club (Knights was it?) no longer exist?

what happened to them? The Rangers were all about becoming the new professional club for Manchester and looked to be evolving well. 

[Damien]

Just now, Sports Prophet said:

So Manchester Rangers and the other Manchester club (Knights was it?) no longer exist?

what happened to them? The Rangers were all about becoming the new professional club for Manchester and looked to be evolving well. 

They were turned down by the RFL.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

10 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

So Manchester Rangers and the other Manchester club (Knights was it?) no longer exist?

what happened to them? The Rangers were all about becoming the new professional club for Manchester and looked to be evolving well. 

Manchester Rangers got asked to pay 500k by the RFL and the board decided it no longer wanted any involvement with Rugby League, or told take over another greater manchester club.

Refusal to let Manchester Rangers play as Salford's reserve team, after initially giving the go ahead. 

Knights folded many years ago, used to play at Aldwinians.

The amateur operations from Manchester Rangers have been taken over by the volunteers with the blessing to carry on using the Rangers name.

A Belle Vue Bees junior clubs exists, a Manchester Rangers ARLFC (but have retired from the league for this year), Manchester Schools league.  The main focus being on building high schools rugby.

[Sports Prophet]

5 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

Manchester Rangers got asked to pay 500k by the RFL and the board decided it no longer wanted any involvement with Rugby League, or told take over another greater manchester club.

£500k to enter League 1 was it?

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

£500k to enter League 1 was it?

yes or change your name to Eric Perez

[Sports Prophet]

6 minutes ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

yes or change your name to Eric Perez

What was the highest division the club played in before that incident?

[Spidey]

11 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

What was the highest division the club played in before that incident?

NWML Division Two

[Sports Prophet]

So the management gave up the dream because they couldn’t afford to compete in a professional competition? 

Is there any reason why the visionary’s didn’t think to progress through NW to NCL and grow their revenue streams to afford becoming a professional outfit?

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

So the management gave up the dream because they couldn’t afford to compete in a professional competition? 

Is there any reason why the visionary’s didn’t think to progress through NW to NCL and grow their revenue streams to afford becoming a professional outfit?

Not really. They gave up the dream because the RFL, and no doubt a little self interest from neighbouring clubs, made it impossible. A £500,000 bond to play in a part time division in front of hundreds of people is ludicrous. 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

So the management gave up the dream because they couldn’t afford to compete in a professional competition? 

The pricing for them and pricing for others were substantially different.

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Is there any reason why the visionary’s didn’t think to progress through NW to NCL and grow their revenue streams to afford becoming a professional outfit?

What revenue streams do you think going through the amateur ranks produces?

[fighting irish]

6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

So the management gave up the dream because they couldn’t afford to compete in a professional competition? 

Is there any reason why the visionary’s didn’t think to progress through NW to NCL and grow their revenue streams to afford becoming a professional outfit?

That's a good question. Everybody wants to short circuit the long game. From what I've seen in the last fifty years only a billionaire has a realistic chance of achieving that. I'm a believer in the long game. Cast more seeds, keep encouraging newcomers to get involved, wherever they appear and let the game grow naturally among real enthusiasts. 

[fighting irish]

7 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

The pricing for them and pricing for others were substantially different.

What revenue streams do you think going through the amateur ranks produces?

You've hit the nail right on the head. The only revenue streams, initially, are club membership fees. Income for "amateur" clubs comes from the members and their families and friends. Social gatherings, outings, raffles, 100 clubs, beer sales, etc etc etc. Grow the membership. Embed the club in the community. Give the children a great game to play and they'll provide all the income you need. How else? We shouldn't be surprised that strangers don't rush forward to give us their money. That's the false hope of an arm twisting salesman. We need to build an enormous amateur game full of people whose first involvement with the game was as a child running around a school field with a steeden. Then the money will come. Any other way, is a fantasy, maintained by people who believe it's possible to get something for nothing.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

8 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

You've hit the nail right on the head. The only revenue streams, initially, are club membership fees. Income for "amateur" clubs comes from the members and their families and friends. Social gatherings, outings, raffles, 100 clubs, beer sales, etc etc etc. Grow the membership. Embed the club in the community. Give the children a great game to play and they'll provide all the income you need. How else? We shouldn't be surprised that strangers don't rush forward to give us their money. That's the false hope of an arm twisting salesman. We need to build an enormous amateur game full of people whose first involvement with the game was as a child running around a school field with a steeden. Then the money will come. Any other way, is a fantasy, maintained by people who believe it's possible to get something for nothing.

I don't think you've understood my point at all and I don't agree with everything you say here.

I asked what revenue streams going through the amateur ranks could make. All of those revenue streams you mentioned can be achieved in pretty much any tier of the amateur ranks. There is very little sponsorship money out investment from businesses in these ranks. Being a good amateur club is a completely different beast to being a good pro club. 

Getting into rugby league does not have to involve playing the game at all. In fact, many people I used to play the game with never even watched the pro teams. I mean a significant amount, too, not just the odd person. Many of the people I watch the game with have never played it, again a significant amount. Rugby league participants and rugby league spectators are not one and the same.

Playing does not equal spectating. And spectating does not equal playing. One doesn't feed the other.