Reason Smith is GOAT

[Clogiron]

On 13/07/2019 at 11:27, Scubby said:

That and the white phone boxes, you really peaked back then!

I thought the phone boxes were white/cream so you couldn't see all the gull c*ap on them

[Dunbar]

54 minutes ago, OMEGA said:

Not in my opinion, great as he was he remains a level below for me. He certainly splits opinions as there are many who see him as the greatest ever while others recognise his talent but can’t elevate him to the group of greatest ever players.

He spent a large part of his rep career playing out of position due to Brett Kimmorley being a better scrum half. He didn’t  regularly have the influence in big games that Lewis, Murphy, Hanley etc had. I’d have Lockyer, Steve Walters, Slater, Daley, Fitler to name just a few on a par or better than Johns.

Ive no axe to grind with Johns just don’t subscribe to the love affair that others have about him.

He did have a funny representative career Johns.  For someone regarded by many as the best halfback of all time (if not best player) he did play a lot of his representative career at hooker.

It wasn't particularly just to accommodate Kimmorley, in my memory Johns didn't play as much at 9 with Kimmorly at 7 than he did with Toovey at 7... particularly in State of Origin anyway.

It was a funny time though when half back an hooker were seen as far more interchangeable than now. In one series it would be Toovey at 9 and Johns at 7 and then another series it would be the other way around.

Personally, if I were picking the best 13 I have seen, I would have Johns at 7.

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

On 12/07/2019 at 11:44, Dunbar said:

If I was picking the best team I have seen play the game (since 1984) I would have Smith at 9 and he would be the third player I would add to the team sheet...

The first would be Wally Lewis at 6 and the second would be Ellery Hanley at 13.

Hanley at 13  hahaha, sorry but is that a joke? Not even in the top 6 13s the UK has ever produced, he's a glorified second rower just like Wayne Pearce was for the ockers!

I would never play him there, not in a month of Sundays, not good/skilled enough for the role by a long, long way, second row or winger, absolutely.but in the LF role he's not fit to lace the boots of the likes of Reilly, Whiteley, Kauralius et al.

As for Cam Smith being the GOAT, again, another silly statement, he's a great player, he isn't the greatest, most valuable in his era, you might have a shout. In any case it's silly to start talking GOAT because no-one really agrees on what basis that is decided upon.

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Hanley at 13  hahaha, sorry but is that a joke? Not even in the top 6 13s the UK has ever produced, he's a glorified second rower just like Wayne Pearce was for the ockers!

I would never play him there, not in a month of Sundays, not good/skilled enough for the role by a long, long way, second row or winger, absolutely.but in the LF role he's not fit to lace the boots of the likes of Reilly, Whiteley, Kauralius et al.

Playing the best British player I have ever seen in the position I thought he was most effective? No, it's not a joke.

As for your comments on Reilly, Whiteley, Kauralius.  As I said the players were the best I had seen since I started watching in 1984 and I didn't have the opportunity to see these guys play I will reply in your own style.

hahaha, are you not capable of reading?

[OMEGA]

3 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Hanley at 13  hahaha, sorry but is that a joke? Not even in the top 6 13s the UK has ever produced, he's a glorified second rower just like Wayne Pearce was for the ockers!

I would never play him there, not in a month of Sundays, not good/skilled enough for the role by a long, long way, second row or winger, absolutely.but in the LF role he's not fit to lace the boots of the likes of Reilly, Whiteley, Kauralius et al.

As for Cam Smith being the GOAT, again, another silly statement, he's a great player, he isn't the greatest, most valuable in his era, you might have a shout. In any case it's silly to start talking GOAT because no-one really agrees on what basis that is decided upon.

Hanley, a “glorified second row” ?? Did he ever play second row?? He was a three quarter or half in his younger days then a perfect fit as an elusive line breaking loose forward as he got older! He scored 40, 50 and I think even reached 60 tries a season during his career and he did that playing for different clubs. He was a thorn in the side of the Australians both for Great Britain, Balmain & Western Supburbs.

Are you sure you’re not mixing him up with Sonny Nickle

Im not dismissing your claims that Karalius, Whiteley & Reilly we’re better career Loose Forwards by the way, I’d even throw in Turner & Norton as other great 13s. 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

Hanley played with a 13 on his jersey for Wigan but was not and never will not be a LF, not ever. Superb athlete, superb endeavour but simply not of the same skill level and qualities that a greatest ever LF requires.

[SilentAssassin]

On 14/07/2019 at 20:40, OMEGA said:

Hanley, a “glorified second row” ?? Did he ever play second row?? He was a three quarter or half in his younger days then a perfect fit as an elusive line breaking loose forward as he got older! He scored 40, 50 and I think even reached 60 tries a season during his career and he did that playing for different clubs. He was a thorn in the side of the Australians both for Great Britain, Balmain & Western Supburbs.

 

Indeed. Hanley is still my favourite Leeds player of all time even though we got him over 30 and past his peak years. He was still sublime to watch though and was still scoring around 30 tries a season from loose in his mid 30's. If he was Australian and played his full career in NRL i believe he would be a clear GOAT now. look at the impact he made off just one half season with Balmain in 88.

[Wigan Riversider]

5 hours ago, SilentAssassin said:

Indeed. Hanley is still my favourite Leeds player of all time even though we got him over 30 and past his peak years. He was still sublime to watch though and was still scoring around 30 tries a season from loose in his mid 30's. If he was Australian and played his full career in NRL i believe he would be a clear GOAT now. look at the impact he made off just one half season with Balmain in 88.

Saw him play centre at 37 years for Balmain in 1997 at end of his second season and second stint at Balmain.

Privileged to see him play first and last games for Wigan and Leeds respectively.

Finest ever in my very humble opinion.

 

[Clogiron]

I did see Reilly, Kauralius, Turner etc and Hanley played a different type of game to them but If I was choosing the best overall player or best team I would pick him before any of them, he had that X factor that is missing from our game today,,, liable to produce a try from anywhere on the park at any time, and that to my mind is what distinguishes a truly great player from a automon like Smith, adept at what he does, nothing more, nothing less, the skills you could coach into someone but the really great players had natural abilities that were uncoachable

[Lounge Room Lizard]

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1 hour ago, Clogiron said:

........ liable to produce a try from anywhere on the park at any time, and that to my mind is what distinguishes a truly great player from a automon like Smith, adept at what he does, nothing more, nothing less, the skills you could coach into someone but the really great players had natural abilities that were uncoachable

???? For me a sign of a great Player is somebody who is consistant over a period of years and makes the people around him better players alongside possessing a skill set that sees him the best in his position. Smith fits in to this Category. Strange how over the years unwanted Players go to Melbourne and become better players and often play in Grand Finals etc. I think you will find that them players put that down largely to Smith.

Hanley was a fine athlete. Maybe even fitness wise before his time, as many opponents were not Fulltime Pros for large part of his career. Athletically few had his build or strength back then. But he didnt have that great a skill set. I dont think he made others around him better. He is not known for his passing or reading the game. The X-Factor about him was his athleticism for me. And you cant compare Hanley or players from yesteryear properly.Smith play(ed) in different positions in different era under different rules and conditions.

Smith is more than a autonom or robot. His ability to stay calm, read the situation and make the right decision, such as find the right pass or kick is something you cant coach. He has been the best hooker in the game for a decade shows this. How he influences games is something only great players do and he has been doing it for the past decade. To call Smith an "Autonom" shows you know little about Smith or the skills he possesses.

[Clogiron]

Smith play's out of dummy half, he passes or kicks from there, does he step from either foot, beat a opposion player be speed or strength, score many tries, he's a significant cog in a wheel, forgive me but I like to see players who bring excitement to the game not just do their tasks effectively, if your happy with that good luck to you

[johnmatrix]

But he didnt have that great a skill set. I dont think he made others around him better. He is not known for his passing or reading the game?????

You sure about that? Ellery could read a game better than any of his peers. He definitely  made people around him better, not only was he able to score tries on his own he also created them for his team mates with his passing and off loading ability, that surely falls into being able to read a game. He also had terrific longevity nearly 500 games to his name and 400 tries.

his stats I'm sure would compare well with any player in history,  him and Smith different types of players both good at what they do

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, johnmatrix said:

But he didnt have that great a skill set. I dont think he made others around him better. He is not known for his passing or reading the game?????

You sure about that? Ellery could read a game better than any of his peers. He definitely  made people around him better, not only was he able to score tries on his own he also created them for his team mates with his passing and off loading ability, that surely falls into being able to read a game. He also had terrific longevity nearly 500 games to his name and 400 tries.

his stats I'm sure would compare well with any player in history,  him and Smith different types of players both good at what they do

Ellery is a good call. He wasn't a great passer of a ball but other than that he had the lot. I would have not problem with Hanley being right up there.

[hutch]

On 14/07/2019 at 22:27, OMEGA said:

 

He spent a large part of his rep career playing out of position due to Brett Kimmorley being a better scrum half. He didn’t  regularly have the influence in big games that Lewis, Murphy, Hanley etc had. I’d have Lockyer, Steve Walters, Slater, Daley, Fitler to name just a few on a par or better than Johns.

Ive no axe to grind with Johns just don’t subscribe to the love affair that others have about him.

He didn’t play out of position because kimmorley was better at all, he played hooker because the team was better off with both johns and kimmorley playing and johns was also the best number 9 in the world when he played there.