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AiredaleMike

Champions

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19 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

not comparable to the GF though.

Ive seen my club win LLS and GF's. I think the GF is just a much more exciting and fitting way of doing it. 

Of course it is currently more exciting.... but because the title is not at stake when winning the League Leaders Shield.

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12 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

I’ve acknowledged the pros and cons and figured it is a debate well worth having. Clearly I’m wrong. Good lord, when did this country become so polarised?

Sorry marra, thought this was a forum for discussion. We can have a peoples vote on this subject if you want?

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Just now, Mr Frisky said:

Sorry marra, thought this was a forum for discussion. We can have a peoples vote on this subject if you want?

Your post presented nothing in the way of discussion and instead was an unnecessarily aggressive post, especially when you consider that I’d already addressed your point about this season’s points gap in my previous post.

Just because I would prefer to see a trial return of first-past-the-post doesn’t automatically mean I automatically refuse to even acknowledge the Grand Final taking place. I’ve attended plenty of them in the past and this year I will be looking for a bar in Palmanova that will be showing the game ahead of any football or RU games that are on at the same time. Polarised, as I say. 

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11 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Your post presented nothing in the way of discussion and instead was an unnecessarily aggressive post, especially when you consider that I’d already addressed your point about this season’s points gap in my previous post.

Just because I would prefer to see a trial return of first-past-the-post doesn’t automatically mean I automatically refuse to even acknowledge the Grand Final taking place. I’ve attended plenty of them in the past and this year I will be looking for a bar in Palmanova that will be showing the game ahead of any football or RU games that are on at the same time. Polarised, as I say. 

Calm down kidda, it's a RL fan forum with a pack of idiots talking gibberish, especiallyon a Friday night..... I lost you half way through your rant, so I take it you now agree the GF is the best way to finish the season and crown the champions- I agree with you.

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20 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

Calm down kidda, it's a RL fan forum with a pack of idiots talking gibberish, especiallyon a Friday night..... I lost you half way through your rant, so I take it you now agree the GF is the best way to finish the season and crown the champions- I agree with you.

No, I don’t feel it is the best way to crown the champions as by definition it doesn’t necessarily reward the most consistent side throughout the season and in turn has a negative effect on the regular season as a whole, an opinion that I have found to be somewhat common when working in RL for the last 15 years. However, I won’t be cutting my nose off to spite my face and will watch the play offs as at the end of the day I’m a fan of the game and even a contrived knock out system is better than nowt. 

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2 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

No, I don’t feel it is the best way to crown the champions as by definition it doesn’t necessarily reward the most consistent side throughout the season and in turn has a negative effect on the regular season as a whole, an opinion that I have found to be somewhat common when working in RL for the last 15 years. However, I won’t be cutting my nose off to spite my face and will watch the play offs as at the end of the day I’m a fan of the game and even a contrived knock out system is better than nowt. 

You dont like the GF and full stops or commers in your grammar by the looks of things son....???

Roll on the play offs.

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Just now, Mr Frisky said:

You dont like the GF and full stops or commers in your grammar by the looks of things son....???

Roll on the play offs.

Other than the full stops and commers (sic) that are there, of course. 

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If a team can't win in the most pressurised environment they don't deserve to be called champions. Saints so far haven't displayed all the qualities champions need to display - they've looked like they may crumble when the pressure is really on. If they can overcome their flakiness to win the Grand Final then they will be absolutely worthy champions. If they can't (as it looks like from Wembley and McManus's petrified ranting) then their weaknesses will have been exposed and they will have to go away, address them, come back and win when it matters before being worthy of claiming the ultimate prize.

FWIW while I'm here, and I know there is one poster who is obsessed with this, but the Grand Final is nothing to do with Sky; the execs in Isleworth really don't spend their time running our sport.

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13 minutes ago, M j M said:

If a team can't win in the most pressurised environment they don't deserve to be called champions. Saints so far haven't displayed all the qualities champions need to display -

Alternatively if a team cannot perform better than some others throughout the season and have to rely on a few of end of season games then are they also worthy to be called champions ?

 

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9 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

But we have the Challenge Cup for those who are good at knockout rugby.

You can't compare the playoffs with the Challenge Cup. Your whole season isn't on the line the way it is in the playoffs.

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57 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

You can't compare the playoffs with the Challenge Cup. Your whole season isn't on the line the way it is in the playoffs.

The comment you are quoting was in reply to this ....

10 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

You have to be both consistent and good at knockout rugby to be able to be Champions

I was therefore commenting that the Challenge Cup is there for those good at knockout rugby, which is different to those who have been consistent throughout the season and finished top of the league and which, I believe, should be the way to decide the champions rather than just a few end-of-season knockout matches.

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5 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

A final day straight fight for the title would provide tremendous viewing figures, on the proviso that Sky took it seriously with live games simultaneously on Arena/Action with a live update show on SSN etc. 

Next week St Helens play a Hull side in poor form so if St Helens and Wigan were seperated by points difference instead of 16 points then it would be would be an anti climax as it is highly likely that Saints would win and Wigans game wouldn't matter. Plus with a Grand Final you get a final day straight fight for the title every year.

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34 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

The comment you are quoting was in reply to this ....

I was therefore commenting that the Challenge Cup is there for those good at knockout rugby, which is different to those who have been consistent throughout the season and finished top of the league and which, I believe, should be the way to decide the champions rather than just a few end-of-season knockout matches.

You have to win more than just a few end of season knockout matches to become champions. You have to win enough league games to get into a postion to compete in these end of season games in the first place.

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14 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

And even football has playoffs for promotion in all its professional leagues.

An overwhelming percentage of promoted teams in soccer are promoted via first past the post. 


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India are actually cricket World Cup champions because they finished top of the league stage after each team had played all the other teams an equal number of times.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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13 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

India are actually cricket World Cup champions because they finished top of the league stage after each team had played all the other teams an equal number of times.

You'd be very popular on some parts of twitter/facebook if you sent that out!

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

You'd be very popular on some parts of twitter/facebook if you sent that out!

There's not quite enough allegations of a convoluted conspiracy though. You really need that to get traction.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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15 hours ago, AiredaleMike said:

Hi Tommy,

There are of course mediocre teams in every sport, and it is of course a relative term. This season, everyone is mediocre compared to Saints, as 16 points difference attests. So, if Saints don't win it, a mediocre team will. Why then reward a team that only put together a handful of good performances towards the end of the season. This system has to be an reward for mediocrity. The Rhinos for example have won many a Grand Final with a mediocre team/season.

So mediocrity isn't the problem per se, it is rewarding mediocrity that is the problem.

Hi Mike, 

Like I said previously, winning the LLS is all well and good but in the current system is only one measure of success and not regarded as the highest. Not only have Saints played the majority of their games against bottom half of the table sides due to loop fixtures, but other teams haven't had the pressure of having to chase them to be champions. If Wigan or Warrington knew they had to be as good as Saints all year to be crowned champions I'm sure they would have planned and played differently. 

Approaches to the League are clearly different. Wigan have certainly gone down the route trodden by Leeds in 2011 and 2012 of coming good at the right time and building into a season this year - prepared to take losses (not too many) because the eyes are on the bigger prize. By contrast based on the past 2 years Holbrook's philosophy seems to be that he wants his teams to assert themselves in the comp early on as a contender. Each has its merits.

The Leeds example of mediocrity you give is interesting. I assume you're referring to the 2011 and 2012 wins from 5th? Its worth pointing out that in both those seasons Leeds reached the Challenge Cup Final and in the SL playoffs had only not reached the grand final once since 2007 - losing in a semi to eventual champions Wigan in 2010 iirc. So whilst Leeds definitely had a bad patch mid season, JJB's quote about the team being like Meerkats and only wanting to play in the dark comes to mind, they were still far from a mediocre team. 

Sir Alex Ferguson's 2012/13 Man United title winning squad has been described as 'distinctly average' and worse, yet they still won a title under FPTP. 

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6 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

Next week St Helens play a Hull side in poor form so if St Helens and Wigan were seperated by points difference instead of 16 points then it would be would be an anti climax as it is highly likely that Saints would win and Wigans game wouldn't matter. Plus with a Grand Final you get a final day straight fight for the title every year.

Your final sentence is partly what I mean though. We’re at a stage where we have artificially created this end of season drama to the extent that, in my mind at least, so many of the Grand Finals and it’s winning sides have merged in to one because we’re resting everything on a 80 minute performance instead of a full season of performances. Yes you might get some years where there isn’t much of a race, but that is exactly what makes the good ones all the more memorable.

Imagine the 1994 title race happening these days and what Sky could do with it if they played on the same night with simultaneous broadcasts, a live Sky Sports News switching between the grounds, helicopter ready and waiting with the trophy etc. 

It might sound daft, but sometimes we need bad games/bad seasons/bad teams or else how do we know when there are great ones?

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6 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

It might sound daft, but sometimes we need bad games/bad seasons/bad teams or else how do we know when there are great ones?

We've had bad seasons; everything between 1972 to 2004, then 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019 for example.

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10 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

You dont like the GF and full stops or commers in your grammar by the looks of things son....???

Roll on the play offs.

Full stops and commas are punctuation issues, not grammar 

They all fit under GPS though (or SPaG), of which you just failed under spelling!

"Let he who is without sin..."

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You can praise the play off system all you want but the fact a team can be Champions from fifth place is a joke. This season shows how flawed the system is.

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1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Imagine the 1994 title race happening these days and what Sky could do with it if they played on the same night with simultaneous broadcasts, a live Sky Sports News switching between the grounds, helicopter ready and waiting with the trophy etc. 

 

This happened in 2015 and was appropriately feted. It didn't need the removal of the Grand Final to make it compelling.

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1 hour ago, Bod said:

You can praise the play off system all you want but the fact a team can be Champions from fifth place is a joke. This season shows how flawed the system is.

I do agree with this. A team finishing 2nd or 3rd and winning it is just as much of a joke if you have that point of view. Such a system encourages teams to coast for much of the season to then peak at the right time. Training and performance is structured around this. I know this has been the case at Wigan ever since the days of Maguire and Leeds at one time had this down to a fine art too. I don't particularly see how encouraging this is good for the league or game though or the standard and intensity of matches on a weekly basis.

However the fact is that whilst such a system exists teams must play to that system. If we had no play offs and the team at the top of the table were champions then I'm certain that the league table this season, as well as other seasons, would look drastically different. That is why it is never just as simple as saying the team that finishes top should be champions, that is not the system that is in place and not the system clubs are playing to. At the moment finishing top of the pile by loads of points really counts for very little and is counterproductive if it means you aren't peaking at the right time.

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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Hi Mike, 

Like I said previously, winning the LLS is all well and good but in the current system is only one measure of success and not regarded as the highest. Not only have Saints played the majority of their games against bottom half of the table sides due to loop fixtures, but other teams haven't had the pressure of having to chase them to be champions. If Wigan or Warrington knew they had to be as good as Saints all year to be crowned champions I'm sure they would have planned and played differently. 

Approaches to the League are clearly different. Wigan have certainly gone down the route trodden by Leeds in 2011 and 2012 of coming good at the right time and building into a season this year - prepared to take losses (not too many) because the eyes are on the bigger prize. By contrast based on the past 2 years Holbrook's philosophy seems to be that he wants his teams to assert themselves in the comp early on as a contender. Each has its merits.

The Leeds example of mediocrity you give is interesting. I assume you're referring to the 2011 and 2012 wins from 5th? Its worth pointing out that in both those seasons Leeds reached the Challenge Cup Final and in the SL playoffs had only not reached the grand final once since 2007 - losing in a semi to eventual champions Wigan in 2010 iirc. So whilst Leeds definitely had a bad patch mid season, JJB's quote about the team being like Meerkats and only wanting to play in the dark comes to mind, they were still far from a mediocre team. 

Sir Alex Ferguson's 2012/13 Man United title winning squad has been described as 'distinctly average' and worse, yet they still won a title under FPTP. 

Hi Tommy,

I understand that teams are obliged to play to the system presented to them, and that doesn't necessarily make it right. imagine if there was no GF and Wigan, Warrington et al had to raise their game throughout the whole of the Season, then that would be great for fans.

Instead we have the situation where Wigan have lost 11 games and other chasers 12 and 13 respectively. perhaps without the GF those chasing teams will have only lost half as many !

Leeds, for example winning from 5th twice is thoroughly demeaning to the standing of the game, and really makes RL a laughing stock to many. The Rhinos lost 11 games in the two seasons when they got to the GF in 2011 and 2012 - they were a mediocre team then. The great Leeds teams were in 2004, 2009 and 2015 - when they were League Champions, losing 2, 6 and 6 games respectively.

Perhaps the compromise way froward would be for the League winners to be the Champions, with a separate Sky Trophy for the top 4 or so. Oh, hang-on Sky wouldn't allow it ! Therefore perhaps the difference of opinion on this situation will just roll-on, and on and on.

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