Reports suggest Toronto Wolfpack not guaranteed SL place

[TIWIT]

2 hours ago, PatrickB said:

50 pages. Wow.
I'm curious it anyone convinced anyone else, of anything.

It seems on any topic re: Toronto, everyone is fairly entrenched at this point, no?

I think everyone can agree SuperLeague/RFL have made a complete mess of the whole situation.

[The Parksider]

21 hours ago, Damien said:

People choose to drag the same tired arguments across and repeat themselves ad nauseum.

You've never had an "argument" as is the case with many on here. Nothing but nastiness and insults.

Let's go again. Perez himself set out the plan for expansion in 2016 and he defined it as TWP producing players to expand the playing pool. The production of the players to pro-quality was to be as Perez said "pretty quick" and I gave everyone several 2016 quotes from him and Noble about this. The last quote I have from Perez 2019 challenged on the ZERO result, was from this year when he said in reply to that challenge "it isn't easy". 

Understatement of the year. Perez is finding it impossible.

18 hours ago, RP London said:

Kids want to get involved because of what they see on tv, what they hear and what excites them.. At the moment if you have a choice of RL and RU  they are looking at the international game in RU and also the European Cups and what "if they made it" they could play in... Union wins hands down on this.

We have to start to compete to get these kids(the RFU put in millions to the junior game and it shows).

We do compete along the M62 and in London, but in North America kids don't play Rugby League, unless someone wants to re-post those pictures of TWP players passing a ball to a couple of kids that were pathetically staged to try to give an impression they do. Adults don't play Rugby League in Canada either. USA has a TINY amateur Rugby league. Most are are RU players playing league for a bit of a change.

One thing Perez never did was try to raid the North American Rugby Union for Rugby players, and given that that is where they virtually all are, (150,000 registered RU players at 300 RU clubs) then it's quite clear North America will never provide any quality RL players to the game as they all play union, and there is no RL infrastructure in terms of facilities and coaches anyway. 

Wasn't it a clue Perez himself knew he'd get no RU players, when he actively chased Grid Iron Converts instead?

Of course it would be massively expensive to launch a junior RL game, but of course Argyle is massively rich. But he's not investing in the junior game apart from a few cents for those few staged snaps. This is because he, Perez and Noble know that Rugby Union's growth and professionalisation actually targets Rugby League. It's absolutely no secret that MLR has set up in Toronto, Boston and New York exactly the places Perez was targetting at the start. If Ottawa are real (which I doubt as they backed off starting next year) expect Ottawa RU joining the MLR

The thing is Damian as RP London says if we actually want to expand RL in North America that means them putting shedloads of money into the grass roots and playing it. It does not mean them shipping pro players from here at ridiculous expense, we can't afford to lose, to NA pretending it's played in North  America. I am sorry at your frustration that I have said this 2,546,322 times, but it's just that you have ignored this 2,546,322 times.

Everyone on here even the sceptics who sit on the fence out of some sort of fear of getting the barrage of insults I get should remember that we had the World Cup going to America. Beyond Perez's nonsense Moore said that was to be the catalyst for the future growth of RL in North America, and at Denver we showed them what we had. It flopped. That was the day RL died in North America

And true to form North America are now looking to bid for the Rugby Union world cup, and there is every chance they will get it as the RU game is growing there. Who is ever going to throw their time and money away on developing Rugby League in North America NOW let alone once RU get that World cup. Not even the mega rich Aussie is interested? 

As we stand TWP are set to come into SL with no junior development and replace London Broncos who gave SL a fabulous show and who run a decent academy that is fed by young RL players developed in school and junior London RL by some fine volunteers and RL enthusiasts there who have worked very hard.

What a disgusting kick in the teeth that this London club who were launched in 1980 to underpin Rugby League in the capital, and all the volunteers who give their time to London JARL & ARL against massive odds, and have worked hard for over 38 years, to get where they are today are to be kicked out for a completely phoney club in a country 3,000 miles away where they do not play Rugby League and certainly never will as Union are seeing to that with 100% dominance of Rugby per se in North America.

Discuss or insult Damian?? Anyone else want a go at the post NOT the poster??

Or are you going to let your Emoji's do the talking for you instead???? 

[Oxford]

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

TWP are completely phoney

No they're not so that's sorted

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

and will not be liked here

Yes they are another one bites the dust.

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

but Argyles wallet is a very big prize indeed

No it isn't as it isn't on offer to anyone but TWP.

 

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

but his failure to pay his bills could be his undoing.

Are you describing TWP or more than half the clubs ir RL?

 

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

Anyway not having a go at you fans as you're very real RL fans,

Keep it up then!

 

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

so good luck if you get lucky and join SL

Luck has nothing to do with it.

 

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

but excuse me if I cheer the other side.

So long as you turn up and pay to boo you'll be more than welcome.

 

On 25/09/2019 at 05:04, The Parksider said:

you've thankfully stopped insulting me,

Er .......

 

[Damien]

6 hours ago, PatrickB said:

50 pages. Wow.
I'm curious it anyone convinced anyone else, of anything.

It seems on any topic re: Toronto, everyone is fairly entrenched at this point, no?

Telling people they are wrong never convinces people of anything.

[Dave T]

5 hours ago, TIWIT said:

I think everyone can agree SuperLeague/RFL have made a complete mess of the whole situation.

I'm not sure that is right. They have taken too long to make this decision, but integrating TWP into the UK system has been surprisingly smooth.

Apart from a few hysterical people there hasn't been much of an issue.

Of course, if they ever get knocked back, I reserve the right to change my opinion. 

But so far we have seen 3 successful years of TWP in the UK system and they are hot favourites for promotion to SL - that doesn't sound like a complete mess tbh.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

 

Everyone on here even the sceptics who sit on the fence out of some sort of fear of getting the barrage of insults I get should remember that we had the World Cup going to America. Beyond Perez's nonsense Moore said that was to be the catalyst for the future growth of RL in North America, and at Denver we showed them what we had. It flopped. That was the day RL died in North America

 

Now come on Parky , do I really care about being insulted ? , I've been debating with Scotchy for over a decade

I am just taking a more pragmatic view in that Toronto do exist , wether that was Mr Wood  leaving a time bomb or not is irrelivant , they are here , we have to deal with them , or we don't , as you know I agree completely that they have abandoned their initial joining policy and promises ( yes it was theirs not just Mr Perez's ) , again perhaps Mr Wood should have put those promises under more scrutinity 

And yes the ' opposition ' do completely ingore those points dismissing them as Mr Perez's only , clearly wrong 

So we either refuse them with whatever fall out that produces ( as I certainly don't want them remaining in the Championship in their current form , they just don't fit ) or we see if they can become an asset to SL and the game in general 

But as always we are all entitled to our opinions , and I've no problem with you using my slogan as you probably above all have suffered from its point , yes people should reply to the post NOT the poster , on all sides of the argument 

All the best 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Telling people they are wrong never convinces people of anything.

But that is what everybody does on most subjects , it is the basis of ' debate ' 

[GUBRATS]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure that is right. They have taken too long to make this decision, but integrating TWP into the UK system has been surprisingly smooth.

Apart from a few hysterical people there hasn't been much of an issue.

Of course, if they ever get knocked back, I reserve the right to change my opinion. 

But so far we have seen 3 successful years of TWP in the UK system and they are hot favourites for promotion to SL - that doesn't sound like a complete mess tbh.

But Dave , should their policy and promises been put under more scrutiny ? , With regards player production , and then the associated issue of requiring a number of other clubs to bring in the potential finances 

Otherwise we shouldn't even be having this thread 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But Dave , should their policy and promises been put under more scrutiny ? , With regards player production , and then the associated issue of requiring a number of other clubs to bring in the potential finances 

Otherwise we shouldn't even be having this thread 

I'm not so sure. I suppose it depends what the agreements with the RFL were, not what Perez says to the media. As a game we say a lot to the media that doesn't come to fruition, so it doesn't offend me at all tbh.

I am perfectly happy with requirements(I hate minimum standards as it drives debate to Wakey and Cas' grounds) being updated and changed.

The demand that TWP are self funding for a period seems reasonable, and I think it would now be reasonable to be demanding a plan for a player pathway (whether that is in London or Toronto, or both). But I have little issue that this hasn't been setup yet. 

I still see these first few years as proof of concept, a work in progress, but it is hard to argue that the signs havent been positive. We have previously admitted the likes of PSG and Gateshead to SL as complete shells of clubs, we are a few steps ahead of that, but not as advanced as Catalans in so far as the foundations, but it is a new territory.

The world is changing, we are 3 years in to this project, I have no issues in the slightest with demands changing and evolving as we go. The demands have just changed for the other SL clubs for  next year (reserves for example).

Again, the two camps are at the extremes - one side say they havent developed a dozen players so they should be kicked out, the other threaten legal action any time any kind of demand is made on their club - the adults are in the middle ground making progress.

Edit: it also isnt helpful for people to want them to be treated the same as other clubs - they are unique and it is ok to treat them as unique. As long as it is fair.

[Damien]

31 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

But that is what everybody does on most subjects , it is the basis of ' debate ' 

That does not change what I said. Many on here don't even debate, a person repeating themselves ad nauseam and ignoring all replies and counter arguments is not debating.

[Damien]

51 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure that is right. They have taken too long to make this decision, but integrating TWP into the UK system has been surprisingly smooth.

I think much of the credit for that lies with TWP and the professional approach they have shown.

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think much of the credit for that lies with TWP and the professional approach they have shown.

Why the steadfast refusal to acknowledge the RFL's part? That seems odd considering we know very little about what has happened.

[TboneFromTO]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why the steadfast refusal to acknowledge the RFL's part? That seems odd considering we know very little about what has happened.

Completely agree Dave 

While a cool idea and great development, we should acknowledge the RFLs part  for trying something new.  They could have said no from the get go and they should rightfully be praised for taking the risk!

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why the steadfast refusal to acknowledge the RFL's part? That seems odd considering we know very little about what has happened.

What refusal? The RFL did a great thing in admitting them but once admitted it's my opinion that the TWP operation ensured everything ran smooth. Any issues, such as immigration issues, changing kick off times to suit teams like this year etc have all been swiftly resolved by TWP.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, TboneFromTO said:

Completely agree Dave 

While a cool idea and great development, we should acknowledge the RFLs part  for trying something new.  They could have said no from the get go and they should rightfully be praised for taking the risk!

The problem is that whilst we have some noise from people slating the RFL and the selfish, backward clubs TWP have been admitted into the UK structure and payed for three years, as have Toulouse, Ottawa have been accepted into the structure and work is ongoing with New York.

We shouldn't forget the reality because Elstone is a terrible public speaker, which is all that has actually happened (yet).

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

What refusal? The RFL did a great thing in admitting them but once admitted it's my opinion that the TWP operation ensured everything ran smooth. Any issues, such as immigration issues, changing kick off times to suit teams like this year etc have all been swiftly resolved by TWP.

Fair enough, I think the RFL, clubs and TWP have worked well together to make this surprisingly smooth.

See my post above for my further toughts.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Fair enough, I think the RFL, clubs and TWP have worked well together to make this surprisingly smooth.

See my post above for my further toughts.

Sorry Dave you seem to be looking for an argument that I'm not interested in 

I actually agree with what you are saying and yes there should be credit all round and yes the clubs have been surprisingly supportive. That really has shocked me and it's great the they have seen the greater good. I was just pointing out that in my opinion Toronto deserve a lot of credit for the way they have managed things since admittance.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Sorry Dave you seem to be looking for an argument that I'm not interested in 

I actually agree with what you are saying and yes there should be credit all round and yes the clubs have been surprisingly supportive. That really has shocked me and it's great the they have seen the greater good. I was just pointing out that in my opinion Toronto deserve a lot of credit for the way they have managed things since admittance.

That's fair enough then mate, against the backdrop of insults being thrown at the game over here it is hard to get the tone of the posts at times!

I agree with you, I think on the face of it it has all gone really well, and whilst there are things to be resolved behind the scenes, from a customers point of view, looking in they have recruited a decent squad, playing attractive RL in front of good crowds, with most games televised. That is more then enough to work with for now.

[RP London]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

It is very important now 

why??  as you say in the short term that NA can be supported... 

Therefore it is not important now to have players from canada playing.. it is down the line and that is what everyone is saying but you cannot have this from day one and nor, as you say, do you need it (the Canadians dont care, we can support them with the players from other areas)

Deal with the long term IN the long term.. yes things need to be in progress and being developed but it is a long term strategy the short and long term seem to be getting mixed up far too much.

Short term: the club builds with non canadians

Medium term: the club starts to develop junior set ups and development of players

long term: club uses majority canadian players through their youth development system.. 

but without the short term you dont get to move any of the rest forward.

[Scubby]

24 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That's fair enough then mate, against the backdrop of insults being thrown at the game over here it is hard to get the tone of the posts at times!

I agree with you, I think on the face of it it has all gone really well, and whilst there are things to be resolved behind the scenes, from a customers point of view, looking in they have recruited a decent squad, playing attractive RL in front of good crowds, with most games televised. That is more then enough to work with for now.

My problem is once you start getting OTT about what you are holding a single club accountable for, it opens up double standards for the rest of the league clubs. In essence, you could just wave Fev through having no financial infrastructure and having played a season with a handful of another club's players. This is what happens when you mix chalk and cheese in the same pot.

[RP London]

18 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It does come down to money and opportunity in the end, and RL's problem is that presently it doesn't and can't offer enough of either to get masses of boys and young men interested.  The likes of Toronto and New York will change that by raising the game's profile and improving its image, then more boys and young men (such as RP London's son) will take an interest in it.  Raising its profile and improving its image are necessary steps to achieve that and decades of experience shows that traditional clubs can't manage it.

just to be fair.. my son watches more RL than he does RU... He would come to as much as I would take him to and loves it. Union has a bigger profile which is appealing and is better know,  but also League is across the city and union is up the road which will have helped sway his decision and the fact there was even less junior development in the city when he started than there is now... he has already said if they change the tackle law in union he would move to league..

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Scubby said:

My problem is once you start getting OTT about what you are holding a single club accountable for, it opens up double standards for the rest of the league clubs. In essence, you could just wave Fev through having no financial infrastructure and having played a season with a handful of another club's players. This is what happens when you mix chalk and cheese in the same pot.

Are you arguing that TWP shouldn't be mixed in with UK clubs then? Or that we treat them exactly the same as UK teams?

Because it is an argument that harms TWP either way.

[Scubby]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Are you arguing that TWP shouldn't be mixed in with UK clubs then? Or that we treat them exactly the same as UK teams?

Because it is an argument that harms TWP either way.

I think that putting TWP in the English lower leagues (with the likes of Skolars, Oxford, Sheffield, Swinton and Hemel playing on a park fields), and pouring over whether they can prove they can run like a full time SL club (with TV coverage et al) is pretty ridiculous.

The criticism on here is OTT - they are currently a lower league club FFS - but are being scrutinised like they are Leeds or Wigan. Clubs like Leigh, Halifax and Fev have been basket cases for the last 2-3 years, rely on other club's players, yet can put a run of wins together for a few weeks and be waved through into SL on different standards. Is there some kind of local Mason's pass for M62 teams we don't know about?

We have given TWP no allowance to build into being a SL club like we did with Catalans. That is a shame. Luckily, it seems they have enough money to ride this through. Had we given them a place in SL for 2020 and then allowed them a dry run year in the Championship or something then the millions wasted on ####ing about beating Oxford 80-0 could have been directly spent on local infrastructure in Canada (maybe a SL's insistence).

[RP London]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I think that putting TWP in the English lower leagues (with the likes of Skolars, Oxford, Sheffield, Swinton and Hemel playing on a park fields), and pouring over whether they can prove they can run like a full time SL club (with TV coverage et al) is pretty ridiculous.

The criticism on here is OTT - they are currently a lower league club FFS - but are being scrutinised like they are Leeds or Wigan. Clubs like Leigh, Halifax and Fev have been basket cases for the last 2-3 years, rely on other club's players, yet can put a run of wins together for a few weeks and be waved through into SL on different standards. Is there some kind of local Mason's pass for M62 teams we don't know about?

We have given TWP no allowance to build into being a SL club like we did with Catalans. That is a shame. Luckily, it seems they have enough money to ride this through. Had we given them a place in SL for 2020 and then allowed them a dry run year in the Championship or something then the millions wasted on ####ing about beating Oxford 80-0 could have been directly spent at local infrastructure in Canada (maybe a SL's insistence).

I think that is a very good summation of the situation. 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Scubby said:

1 - I think that putting TWP in the English lower leagues (with the likes of Skolars, Oxford, Sheffield, Swinton and Hemel playing on a park fields), and pouring over whether they can prove they can run like a full time SL club (with TV coverage et al) is pretty ridiculous.

2 - The criticism on here is OTT - they are currently a lower league club FFS - but are being scrutinised like they are Leeds or Wigan.

3 - Clubs like Leigh, Halifax and Fev have been basket cases for the last 2-3 years, rely on other club's players, yet can put a run of wins together for a few weeks and be waved through into SL on different standards. Is there some kind of local Mason's pass for M62 teams we don't know about?

4 - We have given TWP no allowance to build into being a SL club like we did with Catalans. That is a shame. Luckily, it seems they have enough money to ride this through. Had we given them a place in SL for 2020 and then allowed them a dry run year in the Championship or something then the millions wasted on ####ing about beating Oxford 80-0 could have been directly spent on local infrastructure in Canada (maybe a SL's insistence).

1 - That is a matter of opinion I suppose. Three years ago, TWP weren't a thing. How are they meant to prove that they can be a thing? How can we prove that this new concept could work? I'm not convinced the PSG and Gateshead model is one to follow. I think most would accept that TWP and the RFL have learnt a hell of a lot in these first three years, they have built up a portfolio of sponsors, fans, players, they are now a thing. I'm not too sure of the issue.

2 - They aren't being scrutinised as if they are Wigan or Leeds at all. There are two or three really vocal people here questioning the lack of player development. Let's not go OTT with the defence and be precious about valid discussions. 

3 - Well, yes, and I suspect you are intentionally missing the point here. Leigh, Fax or Fev are members of the RFL already, and their admittance to SL causes no logistical or financial challenges that a Canadian team brings. These are the things that are being discussed. You would be the very first to criticise lack of due diligence. There are no visa issues, travel issues, weather issues etc. with the UK clubs. 

4 - So what you are proposing is awarding a place in the top division to something that has no foundations and no, well, nothing really. Haven't we learnt from PSG? Catalans had foundations, and I'd agree with that approach for Toulouse, but I have no issue with expecting to see some kind of evidence of delivery from TWP, which so far they have more than done in my eyes.

Our pro pyramid is very shallow, I don't think it is an unreasonable barrier to insist that a brand new franchise in a new area with no foundations start in the 3rd division.