Why can’t we do this in London?

[Canis Lupus]

Are the monarchs still about?

[Toby Chopra]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

I disagree, NFL is massive in this country already, as are Sunday night viewing figures on sky. Go out and look around you, so many people have NFL fear on, not the playing shirts but hoodies, t-shirts, caps, bobble hats in winter etc. 

The Sunday night TV viewing figures on Sky are lower than Superleague, although this is partly because the NFL cannibalises its own ratings with Gamepass. Sky pay for NFL a fraction of what they pay for the Superleague contract, plus they have much lower production costs. 

NFL is not massive in the UK, it's a niche sport like Rugby League, although it's true that the NFL fanbase on average is younger and more geographically broad. The demographics always win out in the end! 

Obviously, the fundamental difference is that they can operate here as an add on to being the richest sport in the richest country in the world, so it's like a bonus market with much of the hard work done already to produce an elite product. That's why they can make inroads. 

[EssexRL]

In response to a couple of the comments above my original post was a bit of an instant reaction to what I was watching and thinking-

1. I don’t recall RL ever getting that amount of coverage on BBC London (the sports fault for not taking advantage of ‘stories’ that journos could use), and

2. Thinking everything that was said about NFL could be said about RL and wondering if we’d ever tried something like this because the one big challenge to expansion is lack of players down here 

[Denton Rovers RLFC]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Quite angry about it aren’t you. I can’t be bothered to argue about it but few of your points are valid, for example why would they need a paid service when it’s all on Sky which is already a subscription channel. 

The fact is if I asked most people I know (blokes in their 30s and 40s) about NFL the vast majority would say what team they support and would know a fair bit about it. The same could not be said for any other sport except football. NFL in this country is quite simply bigger (in terms of interest and tv viewing as opposed to people attending games, though if there was a London team based at Wembley their average gate would be 90,000) than rugby league is, which is a shame as far as I’m concerned but true. Participation is also irrelevant in this instance. 

Going back to my original point about why so many people in London are trying to get onto the NFL’s scheme, which prompted your stream of vitriol, I have explained why, it’s because it’s a very popular sport in London. 

Angry, no, I asked you for some facts and you provided a marketing press release, Gridiron has a decent following but it isn't "massive" as you stated and I also asked you what a "load" was? 

Provide some facts, not marketing BS.

Yeah, a thousand 'lads' will likely turn up for some basic fitness test, so what, it's a bit like Britains Got Talent, you might get a few decent acts, but it's simply marketing.

How many of these 1000 kids will get a run on/53 rosta spot in the next 3 years? If the likes of Lawrence Okoye can't make it and has had to jack it in and try reignite his athletics career then I can't see this being anything but publicity. Fair play to them but it doesn't indicate the sport is massive here at all.

So, those facts if you may. 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

4 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Angry, no, I asked you for some facts and you provided a marketing press release, Gridiron has a decent following but it isn't "massive" as you stated and I also asked you what a "load" was? 

Provide some facts, not marketing BS.

Yeah, a thousand 'lads' will likely turn up for some basic fitness test, so what, it's a bit like Britains Got Talent, you might get a few decent acts, but it's simply marketing.

How many of these 1000 kids will get a run on/53 rosta spot in the next 3 years? If the likes of Lawrence Okoye can't make it and has had to jack it in and try reignite his athletics career then I can't see this being anything but publicity. Fair play to them but it doesn't indicate the sport is massive here at all.

So, those facts if you may. 

I’ve never known Rugby League to sell approx 80,000 tickets for four back-to-back events, like the NFL has done this year. 

 

[RP London]

14 hours ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

No it isn't. again, put forward some facts, what is "massive"? Just because you have a handful of games getting 80,000 doesn't make the sport 'massive'. Yes there is a following, yes there is serious interest from a hardcore of fans but it's not as big as you think it is, if it was this would have been tapped up already and a professional league running by now across the country, there isn't is there.

You do know that the league mainly runs financially on the annual subs paid by the individual players right? You do know that the 'Britbowl' just about gets a 1,000 fans turning up for their Grandfinal, sorry but you're just wrong and the facts back that up.

I agree it needs some figures but anecdotally I tried to get tickets this year (for the first time) sold out in minutes if not seconds... we could only wish for such things to be fair.. how oversubscribed would these matches be? I honestly believe if the logistics can be sorted it’s only a matter of time before there are 8 home matches as GB Franchise is put in.. 

[TboneFromTO]

36 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Angry, no, I asked you for some facts and you provided a marketing press release, Gridiron has a decent following but it isn't "massive" as you stated and I also asked you what a "load" was? 

Provide some facts, not marketing BS.

Yeah, a thousand 'lads' will likely turn up for some basic fitness test, so what, it's a bit like Britains Got Talent, you might get a few decent acts, but it's simply marketing.

How many of these 1000 kids will get a run on/53 rosta spot in the next 3 years? If the likes of Lawrence Okoye can't make it and has had to jack it in and try reignite his athletics career then I can't see this being anything but publicity. Fair play to them but it doesn't indicate the sport is massive here at all.

So, those facts if you may. 

Well it's more of an investment into a future player pool.  There's already a few Brits playing in the NFL (well atleast one) 

From what I have noticed from my time living in MCR and more recently working near London WAY more people know about NFL then rugby league, even in the north!  We have a profile issue in rugby league. I mean the NFL this year had higher attendances in 4 games then ANY team in super League has had the whole season.

Edit: and they did it without away fans!

[Eddie]

50 minutes ago, Denton Rovers RLFC said:

Angry, no, I asked you for some facts and you provided a marketing press release, Gridiron has a decent following but it isn't "massive" as you stated and I also asked you what a "load" was? 

Provide some facts, not marketing BS.

Yeah, a thousand 'lads' will likely turn up for some basic fitness test, so what, it's a bit like Britains Got Talent, you might get a few decent acts, but it's simply marketing.

How many of these 1000 kids will get a run on/53 rosta spot in the next 3 years? If the likes of Lawrence Okoye can't make it and has had to jack it in and try reignite his athletics career then I can't see this being anything but publicity. Fair play to them but it doesn't indicate the sport is massive here at all.

So, those facts if you may. 

Massive and a load of are blatantly not defined terms. However I’ve given you some facts;

1. The NFL press release, ok it may be exaggerated but even if by 100% it would still be more popular than RL. 

2. NFL sell out their four games in minutes, 90,000 each. RL can’t get 70,000 to its flagship game with 12 months sales.

And so what if none of those 1,000 kids make it in NFL, the fact is they want to give it a go. How many do you think would turn up if the RFL held a similar event in London, not even 100. Now as you are so keen on facts can you give me any to demonstrate that RL is more popular than NFL as a spectator sport in the UK?

 

 

[Mr Wind Up]

The NFL is a niche sport in the UK. What do the papers report on? What do the radio shows talk about? It's not the NFL. How much money do broadcasters pay to show the NFL compared to other sports? Not much. Where is the professional gridiron league to show that the game is popular and sustainable at a fundamental, grassroots and cultural level? There isn't any.

There are team three sports in the UK which enjoy widespread popularity: football, cricket and union. RL, while relatively popular, would be in a tier below that. 

But saying that NFL is 'massive', as Eddie did with seemingly no irony, is plainly absurd. There is nothing massive about the NFL in the UK. It has a dedicated, niche fanbase. 

When you have to try and convince people who live in the UK that a sport is popular in the country they live in, you know you're struggling. If a sport is actually popular, even those who don't follow or care for it will know that's the case. 

When a professional league kicks off, when the Sun is running stories about it, and when TalkSport dedicate entire segments to talking about, then you can come back and claim it's massive. Until then, you may want to lay off the crack.

[TboneFromTO]

4 hours ago, Mr Wind Up said:

The NFL is a niche sport in the UK. What do the papers report on? What do the radio shows talk about? It's not the NFL. How much money do broadcasters pay to show the NFL compared to other sports? Not much. Where is the professional gridiron league to show that the game is popular and sustainable at a fundamental, grassroots and cultural level? There isn't any.

There are team three sports in the UK which enjoy widespread popularity: football, cricket and union. RL, while relatively popular, would be in a tier below that. 

But saying that NFL is 'massive', as Eddie did with seemingly no irony, is plainly absurd. There is nothing massive about the NFL in the UK. It has a dedicated, niche fanbase. 

When you have to try and convince people who live in the UK that a sport is popular in the country they live in, you know you're struggling. If a sport is actually popular, even those who don't follow or care for it will know that's the case. 

When a professional league kicks off, when the Sun is running stories about it, and when TalkSport dedicate entire segments to talking about, then you can come back and claim it's massive. Until then, you may want to lay off the crack.

I think you're out of touch with the general populace below the age of 35. Those who dont read papers (they get their news online and why would they read a UK publication when they can read from the us source)

They generally stream (NFL game pass allegedly has high subscription rates) plus BARB numbers (https://www.barb.co.uk/viewing-data/weekly-top-10/ I don't pay for it so I only have up to last year this week) show that while super League was narrowly above the NFL in one channel, when you add the NFL events together (and all the rugby league events together) the NFL viewership is larger. And that doesn't include NFL game pass viewers.

I'm not a huge NFL fan, I prefer RL, but it is more popular then those on here think (or indeed want to believe). Especially with the younger demographics

[Eddie]

5 hours ago, Mr Wind Up said:

The NFL is a niche sport in the UK. What do the papers report on? What do the radio shows talk about? It's not the NFL. How much money do broadcasters pay to show the NFL compared to other sports? Not much. Where is the professional gridiron league to show that the game is popular and sustainable at a fundamental, grassroots and cultural level? There isn't any.

There are team three sports in the UK which enjoy widespread popularity: football, cricket and union. RL, while relatively popular, would be in a tier below that. 

But saying that NFL is 'massive', as Eddie did with seemingly no irony, is plainly absurd. There is nothing massive about the NFL in the UK. It has a dedicated, niche fanbase. 

When you have to try and convince people who live in the UK that a sport is popular in the country they live in, you know you're struggling. If a sport is actually popular, even those who don't follow or care for it will know that's the case. 

When a professional league kicks off, when the Sun is running stories about it, and when TalkSport dedicate entire segments to talking about, then you can come back and claim it's massive. Until then, you may want to lay off the crack.

I’m not trying to convince anyone, I already know it and quite a few posters on here think the same. I was just trying to explain (when asked) why I think it, but obviously it’s difficult when there are people for whatever reason who are obsessed with pretending it’s not true.

Massive may have been an overstatement but it’s certainly bigger than rugby league, club rugby union and county cricket already. Ok there may not be many 60 year olds in Featherstone or Widnes who follow it but go to London or anywhere else and there are an awful lot of teens, 20s, 30s and 40s who do. I don’t need to look at column inches in the Sun newspaper to know this, I just need to observe the world around me. 

Also regarding grass roots, it’s irrelevant, I’m talking about watching NFL (the 32 teams in the USA), not watching some tin pot UK league or playing the game). And Talk Sport just talk about the Top 6 of the Premier League and betting odds, endlessly, so it’s hardly important that they don’t talk about it, when was the last time they did a decent segment on RL or club RU, they even pulled their RL podcast mid-season last year. 

I haven’t got an agenda here, of the three sports I watch NFL is a distant third, but you need to get real about the way the world is outside of the heartlands. 

[Mr Wind Up]

1 hour ago, TboneFromTO said:

I think you're out of touch with the general populace below the age of 35. Those who dont read papers (they get their news online and why would they read a UK publication when they can read from the us source)

They generally stream (NFL game pass allegedly has high subscription rates) plus BARB numbers (https://www.barb.co.uk/viewing-data/weekly-top-10/ I don't pay for it so I only have up to last year this week) show that while super League was narrowly above the NFL in one channel, when you add the NFL events together (and all the rugby league events together) the NFL viewership is larger. And that doesn't include NFL game pass viewers.

I'm not a huge NFL fan, I prefer RL, but it is more popular then those on here think (or indeed want to believe). Especially with the younger demographics

For one, Im well under 35. 

Two, when I say papers, I mean publications. The Sun, Daily Mail, Guardian are among the most read news publications in the English speaking world. Whether you like it or not, they are a snapshot of what interests the general public. If you went through them, youd find very little evidence that NFL is ‘massive’ in the UK.

If you genuinely think NFL gamepass has high (whatever that means) subscription rates in the UK, youre only lying to yourself. If NFL moved subscriptions to any great extent, Sky would be paying a premium for it. No ‘massive’ sport on this planet is consumed outside the FTA/pay TV sphere within any given country. As such, no major UK broadcaster is pumping tens or hundreds of millions into NFL (which would in turn suggest it’s a massive sport). 

Like I said, when gridiron has a league, when broadcasters are paying lots of money to air it, when papers are leading their backpages with stories of NFL, then you can come back and claim it’s massive.

Until then, it’s a niche sport. 

[Themusician_2]

13 hours ago, Eddie said:

Here you go Denton. That’s pretty big imho, though you’re obviously welcome to disagree. 

NFL also use a union calculator

[Eddie]

19 minutes ago, Mr Wind Up said:

For one, Im well under 35. 

Two, when I say papers, I mean publications. The Sun, Daily Mail, Guardian are among the most read news publications in the English speaking world. Whether you like it or not, they are a snapshot of what interests the general public. If you went through them, youd find very little evidence that NFL is ‘massive’ in the UK.

If you genuinely think NFL gamepass has high (whatever that means) subscription rates in the UK, youre only lying to yourself. If NFL moved subscriptions to any great extent, Sky would be paying a premium for it. No ‘massive’ sport on this planet is consumed outside the FTA/pay TV sphere within any given country. As such, no major UK broadcaster is pumping tens or hundreds of millions into NFL (which would in turn suggest it’s a massive sport). 

Like I said, when gridiron has a league, when broadcasters are paying lots of money to air it, when papers are leading their backpages with stories of NFL, then you can come back and claim it’s massive.

Until then, it’s a niche sport. 

Massive is obviously a subjective term so forget that, but which do you think is the most popular spectator sport in this country other than football, excluding international games?

[Mr Wind Up]

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Massive is obviously a subjective term so forget that, but which do you think is the most popular spectator sport in this country other than football, excluding international games?

I was just about to wrap up another post, when I got your notification, so may as well paste it into this, as it perfectly answers your question: 

===

Just to put a final nail in the coffin of the NFL apologists in this thread, I've listed below 25 of the most searched Google keywords categorized by 'Sport' over the past 5 years. A figure of 100 refers to a term that has been searched for the most times, while a 50 score is a term that has been searched half the number of times as that. So a figure of 10 is 10 times less popular than the one with 100. 

1. football 100
2. sport 64
3. bbc sport 57
4. news 53
5. liverpool 32
6. premier league 32
7. rugby 30
8. bbc football 30
9. arsenal 26
10. cricket 25
11. world cup 24
12. sky sports 24
13. chelsea 18
14. transfer news 16
15. man utd 15
16. rangers 13
17. manchester united 13
18. football scores 13
19. wwe 12
20. tottenham 11
21. tennis 10
22. boxing 10

How about the 'Team Sports' category? Maybe NFL will sneak in?

1.  football 100
2. bbc 52
3. premier league 34
4. rugby 31
5. bbc football 30
6. liverpool 29
7. world cup 27
8. cricket 26
9. arsenal 24
10. england 22
11. chelsea 19
12. bbc sport 17
13. football scores 14
14. rangers 14
15. manchester united 13
16. man utd 13
17. tottenham 11
18. man city 11
19. premier league table 10
20. champions league 9
21. celtic 9
22. everton 9
23. bbc sport football 8
24. fa cup 7
25. football results 7

 

I don't need to live in bubbles or know every second kid in London to realise that facts, rather than anecdotes, are a much better gauge of popularity. The cold hard facts about what the people like to search for on Google should dispel any myths that the NFL is anything but a niche sport. 

Let me guess...all the cool kids in London are using Bing, aren't they? Silly me.

[Eddie]

, that just shows what everyone knows already, that football is the all encompassing biggest sport in the country. 

[Mr Wind Up]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

, that just shows what everyone knows already, that football is the all encompassing biggest sport in the country. 

If NFL was this massive sport, it would show up in the numbers. But look at what shows up in the numbers: RU and cricket. What doesn't show up is NFL or RL. Because, as should be obvious to anyone, both occupy a niche in the sporting landscape. 

Even if I did away with Google searches, and just focused on YouTube searches, which is definitely more in line with what younger people tend to use, you get slightly different results, but one in particular that is not going to sit well with the NFL apologists, which I've bolded and enlarged (this is just for category 'Team Sport').

1. arsenal 100
2. football 79
3. liverppol 73
4. chelsea 56
5. man city 42
6. england 42
7. world cup 40
8. arsenal tv 38
9. arsenal fan tv 37
10. tottenham 35
11. rugby 34
12. man utd 34
13. nba 32
14. manchester united 32
15. ronaldo 32
16. real madrid 31
17. rangers 29
18. messi 27
19. celtic 24
20. giggs 23
21. barcelona 23
22. champions league 21
23. everton 20
24. west ham 19
25. cricket 17

I think some of you may need to find more friends down in London town. They like an American sport it seems, but not the one you think. 

 

[HawkMan]

If the NFL locate a team in London then that means hardcore fans have somewhere to watch NFL whether supporting the London team or not, that's all, even though interest would expand greatly it would not be massive, because as a Londoner I can tell you  football is the only massive sport here and always will be.

But let's come at this from a different angle. Suppose a millionaire started a Handball team in London ( a great game BTW), got some top players from Europe  plus some English talent and attracted a fair crowd, and even went through the leagues , in say Germany ending up in the top league, would that be expansion? Would Handball be big in The UK ? Nope, it would mean handball enthusiasts would have somewhere to watch their sport. Does this remind you of TWP. Parky's right TWP isn't expansion, nor is my handball example, nor is NFL in London, true an NFL team would definitely work and be sustainable, easily, but it would not effect the general sporting landscape a jot.

[Click]

1 hour ago, HawkMan said:

If the NFL locate a team in London then that means hardcore fans have somewhere to watch NFL whether supporting the London team or not, that's all, even though interest would expand greatly it would not be massive, because as a Londoner I can tell you  football is the only massive sport here and always will be.

But let's come at this from a different angle. Suppose a millionaire started a Handball team in London ( a great game BTW), got some top players from Europe  plus some English talent and attracted a fair crowd, and even went through the leagues , in say Germany ending up in the top league, would that be expansion? Would Handball be big in The UK ? Nope, it would mean handball enthusiasts would have somewhere to watch their sport. Does this remind you of TWP. Parky's right TWP isn't expansion, nor is my handball example, nor is NFL in London, true an NFL team would definitely work and be sustainable, easily, but it would not effect the general sporting landscape a jot.

You were doing fine until you linked it to the TWP. TWP has many people that watch it that haven't been Rugby enthusiasts, especially not Rugby League ones.

To say TWP isn't expansion is just stupid IMO.

[RP London]

Just now, Click said:

You were doing fine until you linked it to the TWP. TWP has many people that watch it that haven't been Rugby enthusiasts, especially not Rugby League ones.

To say TWP isn't expansion is just stupid IMO.

equally yes initially it is not "expansion" as such but over time you would be looking to grow the support beneath that top level... 

A london franchise is very much a possibility and much of what the NFL are doing now is to see how receptive the level below, the ability to maybe bring some Brits into the game is... the European Player Pathway is huge for them and has been going for 3 years with some interesting results.. Obada being one who probably wouldn't have got a practice place without it and he is not a starter for the panthers. 

Wade is kept on a year to learn, without the pathway this wouldnt have happened, there is another England Sevens player who is at the Falcons (think he is still there) on the pathway.. they have a huge learning curve and the NFL have recognised this and use the pathway, at the same time as bringing these "academies" into place to try and find talent for the college system and start to get the NFL scene in the UK bigger. 

Whether you think the game here is massive or not.. the NFL are doing great things to build it.. they are investing heavily in it and I for one am jealous as would love RL to do something like this.. even on a shoe string!