The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[RP London]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry RP I was determined to take on board what you said, but when I take a slap in the face it is not in my nature to turn the other cheek, I have to respond.

As I say I respect you and the position you take even though we dont agree all the time. My initial post was not just aimed at you it was aimed at everyone who turns every news story on Toronto into the same fight.

Totally understand your reply to Reaper and having to reply as the insult was not fair. 

 

 

[RP London]

13 hours ago, DoubleD said:

That lasted long

 I gave it a go.. 

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Damien said:

It hasn't been this way for the vast majority of the history of Rugby League

Go on then, give me a history lesson, tell me how it did work? 

As a kid I probably first picked up a rugby ball in an organised way (not just playing tick 'n pass on the street) aroundish 1962, and I don't think the process I went through had been altered before that if ever at all.

I'm always willing to learn.

[RP London]

to try and sum up... 

Some Toronto fans dont care about the make up of the team they support.. that is equally evident in the UK, if you win the grand final do you care who is in the team? (some of you will say yes you do, and some will say no you dont... its a difference of opinion lets leave it there).

Some Toronto fans arent worried, at the moment, about junior development.. it is also abundantly clear that some in the UK are not that worried about it either... This is not a purely Canadian/Torontonian issue.. frankly there is a little bit of glass houses and stones here. 

We all tend to agree that Junior development takes some time.. so we shouldnt be expecting results straight away but it should be being started, we are talking "putting balls in hand" here.. IMO this is also a way to get community buy in and build supporter bases and not just junior development in terms of getting players onto the roster.

There is a genuine concern about the player pool being thinned too far with no players being added to it from Toronto/canada. Even Toronto fans would surely see this, whether it is seen as that important is a different matter. But equally this would happen with a shrinking sport in the UK anyway. 

The general argument against this all is that a successful Toronto can solve issues rather than be the issue:

With success juniors will want to get involved in Canada and a growing Junior set up will come, equally a successful Toronto could make the sport more appealing for juniors in the UK and may lift numbers for UK game.. across the uk as other areas want to get involved. They can also increase the money pot and the sponsor pool etc etc

All the concerns are genuine, all the counter arguments are genuine too.. no one (except some very small exceptions who the mods normally pick up on) want the sport to die, we all want the best for it. The problem is there is no right or wrong answer in this, people are trying to do what they think is right and then they have to basically see how it goes (especially when the world throws up things you cannot control).

In the end the proof will be in what is happening in years down the line.. can we please just leave it there and treat the posts about Toronto for what they are rather than the continual dive into all of this? Pretty please?

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Go on then, give me a history lesson, tell me how it did work? 

As a kid I probably first picked up a rugby ball in an organised way (not just playing tick 'n pass on the street) aroundish 1962, and I don't think the process I went through had been altered before that if ever at all.

I'm always willing to learn.

There's nothing like taking one line from the a long post to try and twist it out of context. That's what I'd expect from some of the others in the Leigh echo chamber.

Of course what you say hasn't changed but its not what I said either. What you say also has nothing to do with what a professional club does to develop a player. Please tell me when a salary cap has existed for the majority of RL's history? When has youth development, which in itself is a loose term because the development actually largely happens at an amateur club, deemed to be the only way for a professional club? 

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, CanadianRugger said:

We know the answer to your first question, amen to the rest!

 

In the words of one if your countries better exports "That don't impress me much"

I don't give a flying one for for the success of other sports or the individuals of other sports, my primary and number one concern is Rugby League Football, and my wish is that in Canada or Toronto in particular that those shakers and manipulators who can make things happen put some effort into 'EXPANDING' the game among the natives in respect of participation and eventually in time that will provide professional player's.

Now will *someone sensible please explain to me why is there seemingly no effort being expanded to get the game initialized and going-on in the playing fields of Toronto, as I have stated previously if that infrastructure is not there to fall back on when as they will surely do fall on hard times then it will all have been a waste of time, money and effort.

I have been witness to the many 'Expansion' projects in Rugby League which have all failed, even ones close to the heartlands but they could easily be 4,500 miles away in that the locals in sufficient numbers have not been introduced, cajoled and participated in the sport, there are loads of references to relate to have a look.

*Where are you Oldbear?

[kiwis 13 6]

having a grassroots development program in your area should be the rule wherever you are... it should bring through at least some future players for your club and it creates awareness and an association with the sport.

[17 stone giant]

2 minutes ago, kiwis 13 6 said:

having a grassroots development program in your area should be the rule wherever you are... it should bring through at least some future players for your club and it creates awareness and an association with the sport.

I can't really understand why any club (new or old) wouldn't be promoting the sport in their area by running junior teams and/or putting on coaching sessions for local kids etc. Are Toronto really not doing any of this? I would find that amazing if they aren't.

[DoubleD]

45 minutes ago, RP London said:

to try and sum up... 

Some Toronto fans dont care about the make up of the team they support.. that is equally evident in the UK, if you win the grand final do you care who is in the team? (some of you will say yes you do, and some will say no you dont... its a difference of opinion lets leave it there).

Some Toronto fans arent worried, at the moment, about junior development.. it is also abundantly clear that some in the UK are not that worried about it either... This is not a purely Canadian/Torontonian issue.. frankly there is a little bit of glass houses and stones here. 

We all tend to agree that Junior development takes some time.. so we shouldnt be expecting results straight away but it should be being started, we are talking "putting balls in hand" here.. IMO this is also a way to get community buy in and build supporter bases and not just junior development in terms of getting players onto the roster.

There is a genuine concern about the player pool being thinned too far with no players being added to it from Toronto/canada. Even Toronto fans would surely see this, whether it is seen as that important is a different matter. But equally this would happen with a shrinking sport in the UK anyway. 

The general argument against this all is that a successful Toronto can solve issues rather than be the issue:

With success juniors will want to get involved in Canada and a growing Junior set up will come, equally a successful Toronto could make the sport more appealing for juniors in the UK and may lift numbers for UK game.. across the uk as other areas want to get involved. They can also increase the money pot and the sponsor pool etc etc

All the concerns are genuine, all the counter arguments are genuine too.. no one (except some very small exceptions who the mods normally pick up on) want the sport to die, we all want the best for it. The problem is there is no right or wrong answer in this, people are trying to do what they think is right and then they have to basically see how it goes (especially when the world throws up things you cannot control).

In the end the proof will be in what is happening in years down the line.. can we please just leave it there and treat the posts about Toronto for what they are rather than the continual dive into all of this? Pretty please?

Well said RP, I hope a line can be drawn under it but I think sadly that won’t be the case so this will be the last time I look at this thread. 

The ironic thing is that if Leigh replaced Toronto in SL for arguments sake, it would do absolutely nothing for the player pool, as they’re fishing from the same pond that other NW clubs are. So the argument is pointless 

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

There's nothing like taking one line from the a long post to try and twist it out of context. That's what I'd expect from some of the others in the Leigh echo chamber.

Of course what you say hasn't changed but its not what I said either. What you say also has nothing to do with what a professional club does to develop a player. Please tell me when a salary cap has existed for the majority of RL's history? When has youth development, which in itself is a loose term because the development actually largely happens at an amateur club, deemed to be the only way for a professional club? 

OK point taken, but that one line resonated with me more than all the post together.

2 points from your reply,

The Salary Cap, do you see that as an obstacle to youth development?

And, Secondly there was a time when the amatuer game didn't have junior set-ups, it was play at school then join one of the many amatuer clubs at open age level dotted around the towns which useually had enough teams to form their own Leagues, in my own particular case as a 15 year old I had nowhere to go but a local works RU team thay game was far easier for a 15 year old than open age RL, but at 16 went to Leigh RLFC Colts U'17s which then transgressed into the 'B' U19's most professional clubs operated this system and then for those good enough the 'A' team and first team. 

Lots of lads went straight from the Amateur open age to Pro clubs, but the colts system also produced many pro players.

[RP London]

7 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Well said RP, I hope a line can be drawn under it but I think sadly that won’t be the case so this will be the last time I look at this thread. 

The ironic thing is that if Leigh replaced Toronto in SL for arguments sake, it would do absolutely nothing for the player pool, as they’re fishing from the same pond that other NW clubs are. So the argument is pointless 

i think you're right there!

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

The ironic thing is that if Leigh replaced Toronto in SL for arguments sake, it would do absolutely nothing for the player pool, as they’re fishing from the same pond that other NW clubs are. So the argument is pointless 

I think you are missing the point DD, the Leigh junior set up already provides player's to the professional game, if Leigh had the higher profile status within the town that SL would bring attracting more spectator's which would include more juniors, if they so desire to take up the sport there are community clubs readily available they can go play the sport. 

So whilst I would agree that the same pond would still exist, it would have the opportunity to be stocked wirh more fish that could develop into pro players, that situation sadly is not available for any Toronto youngster who may think, I would like to give this sport a go.

So you see the argument is anything but pointless.

[Harry Stottle]

19 minutes ago, RP London said:

i think you're right there!

No he isn't RP see the previous post.

[Kayakman]

57 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In the words of one if your countries better exports "That don't impress me much"

I don't give a flying one for for the success of other sports or the individuals of other sports, my primary and number one concern is Rugby League Football, and my wish is that in Canada or Toronto in particular that those shakers and manipulators who can make things happen put some effort into 'EXPANDING' the game among the natives in respect of participation and eventually in time that will provide professional player's.

Now will *someone sensible please explain to me why is there seemingly no effort being expanded to get the game initialized and going-on in the playing fields of Toronto, as I have stated previously if that infrastructure is not there to fall back on when as they will surely do fall on hard times then it will all have been a waste of time, money and effort.

I have been witness to the many 'Expansion' projects in Rugby League which have all failed, even ones close to the heartlands but they could easily be 4,500 miles away in that the locals in sufficient numbers have not been introduced, cajoled and participated in the sport, there are loads of references to relate to have a look.

*Where are you Oldbear?

Don't take the bait Oldbear...its been tainted!

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Don't take the bait Oldbear...its been tainted!

With a good dose of expierence!

[DoubleD]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I think you are missing the point DD, the Leigh junior set up already provides player's to the professional game, if Leigh had the higher profile status within the town that SL would bring attracting more spectator's which would include more juniors, if they so desire to take up the sport there are community clubs readily available they can go play the sport. 

So whilst I would agree that the same pond would still exist, it would have the opportunity to be stocked wirh more fish that could develop into pro players, that situation sadly is not available for any Toronto youngster who may think, I would like to give this sport a go.

So you see the argument is anything but pointless.

I'm not missing the point Harry. There aren't potential players in the Leigh area who don't play the game because Leigh aren't in SL.................but if they were, they'd suddenly take up the sport, it's nonsense. Wigan has the area well catered for and the cream rises to the top

[Damien]

47 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK point taken, but that one line resonated with me more than all the post together.

2 points from your reply,

The Salary Cap, do you see that as an obstacle to youth development?

And, Secondly there was a time when the amatuer game didn't have junior set-ups, it was play at school then join one of the many amatuer clubs at open age level dotted around the towns which useually had enough teams to form their own Leagues, in my own particular case as a 15 year old I had nowhere to go but a local works RU team thay game was far easier for a 15 year old than open age RL, but at 16 went to Leigh RLFC Colts U'17s which then transgressed into the 'B' U19's most professional clubs operated this system and then for those good enough the 'A' team and first team. 

Lots of lads went straight from the Amateur open age to Pro clubs, but the colts system also produced many pro players.

I think we are moving to a different debate than the one I was having but its interesting nonetheless.

To answer your questions. I don't see the salary cap as an obstacle to youth development per se. I do see it as an obstacle to the game and clubs that want to shake things up and disrupt the status quo. It forces a model that in reality only benefits the existing big clubs. Under such a system the existing big clubs will always sign the best youngsters and have the best teams without having to spend too much and outcompete each other. It creates a charade of an even competition that isn't really true.

On your second point I understand where you are coming from but think those days are gone in this full time professional age. I'm not necessarily saying they were bad and the system you describe certainly has its merits but I think in a competing age we cant go back to it. Schools don't play the game as they once did and cant be relied on. Strong RL schools can change overnight on the whim of a PE or headteacher. Players also now regularly debut professionally at 18 or 19 and one big advantage RL has at the moment over RU is that players can be signed a year younger. This in itself sees RL sign players that may be tempted to go the other way if it worked in reverse. I can see top young players drifting to RU, and a lot are targeted now as is, if we put more barriers in their path to professional Rugby or have them playing for amateur teams for longer. That is before you consider the benefits of training in a fully professional environment from 16.

This thread about the u19s St Pats v Egremont match from 1982 is a kind of flashback to the times that you talk of. Take a look at the names, it is unthinkable today:

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I'm not missing the point Harry. There aren't potential players in the Leigh area who don't play the game because Leigh aren't in SL.................but if they were, they'd suddenly take up the sport, it's nonsense. Wigan has the area well catered for and the cream rises to the top

So on the Toronto model people state that if they go on to be a success that will be the catalyst to get people playing the sport, but if Leigh are more successful and more people get along to watch the game at the LSV including kids it will not entice more of those kids play the sport?

Talk about double standards, saying you are confused and why is much better than just putting the emoji on show.

[DoubleD]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

So on the Toronto model people state that if they go on to be a success that will be the catalyst to get people playing the sport, but if Leigh are more successful and more people get along to watch the game at the LSV including kids it will not entice more of those kids play the sport?

Talk about double standards, saying you are confused and why is much better than just putting the emoji on show.

The sport is already well known and played within the Wigan conurbation Harold, as you well know. I'm surprised I'm even having this discussion with someone of your intelligence, I thought this would be obvious. Do you really think there are swathes of kids that won't be playing the game currently in the Leigh vicinity because Leigh are not in SL? Most kids in Leigh won't even aspire to play for Leigh, regardless of their status

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

The sport is already well known and played within the Wigan conurbation Harold, as you well know. I'm surprised I'm even having this discussion with someone of your intelligence, I thought this would be obvious. Do you really think there are swathes of kids that won't be playing the game currently in the Leigh vicinity because Leigh are not in SL? Most kids in Leigh won't even aspire to play for Leigh, regardless of their status

Put another way, yes I do think more kids would be enticed to the sport if Leigh were in SL, whatever the standing of any club the local kids have their heroes some even wear replica shirts emblazoned with their hero's name, funnily enough when Leigh were in SL there was more evidence of these shirts around town than in the seasons before and after.

So the natural progression follows, kids want to emulate their heroes.

IF Leigh were in SL which is the crux of this discussion along with player development which you have brought to the thread,  why would those kids not want to play for their home town team in SL?

So do you believe the more successful Toronto are the more popular the game will be and more will wish to play the sport? 

PS have you ever had the privaledge to work with kids at amatuer level?

[Kayakman]

47 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

With a good dose of expierence!

Hey Harry do you know why many of the emojis of the various poster have disappeared on the forum and been replaced with the generic letters?

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

No he isn't RP see the previous post.

no hes right.. we;re not talking about the good news of Toronto's announcement.. its still (as always) about who is doing the junior development etc etc etc ad infinitum... which is and has always been my point on this. another interesting thread had descended into the same old argument by those who are "bored" of hearing about it... oh the irony!

its infuriating.... but i'm done now so will let you argue on... 

maybe @ckn or @John Drake can somehow merge all the posts on all the threads about this 1 part of the conversation into one thread leaving all the other threads open to actually talk about the topic that started it... but i think they would need the full £16m govt loan to afford the time to do it there are that many!