The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[GUBRATS 4,105]

1 minute ago, Michael1812 said:

https://hockey.sigmagfx.com/compseason/ahl/1920
 

Highest average attendance by club was 9000, lowest was 2700. Average across the 31 teams was 5500. 
 

Quite good for an indoor sport really , it makes you wonder why they'd want to be another teams reserves ?

[Michael1812 406]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Quite good for an indoor sport really , it makes you wonder why they'd want to be another teams reserves ?

These cities aren’t going to get NHL club, so this is the next best thing. 

[Davo5 4,037]

29 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Quite good for an indoor sport really , it makes you wonder why they'd want to be another teams reserves ?

Works for Fev 

[bentleyman 52]

1 hour ago, Robin Evans said:

That'll be top house in fev then?

Thought The Top House was Odslum & The White House was Fev ?

[Robin Evans 3,913]

33 minutes ago, bentleyman said:

Thought The Top House was Odslum & The White House was Fev ?

The white house certainly is fev. The featherstone Hotel at the top of station Lane is known locally as the top house.

[GUBRATS 4,105]

1 hour ago, Michael1812 said:

These cities aren’t going to get NHL club, so this is the next best thing. 

Do they have other 2 nd tier sports teams , or are they the premier team in the city ?

[Michael1812 406]

36 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Do they have other 2 nd tier sports teams , or are they the premier team in the city ?

It varies, some of them are the only game in town but others are very much 3rd or 4th string in their cities. If you look at Cleveland who led the league in averaging 9000 a match, they are very far behind Cleveland’s other big sports clubs (Cavs in NBA, Indians in MLB and Browns in the NFL). 

This is obviously a cultural thing to NA sports so no idea how the system would be successful in the UK but if the football team I supported was cut off from the premier league, I don’t think I would give a damn as my interest is in them and not the league. 

[TheReaper 1,225]

I think minor leagues have a much greater percentage of fans who are there for "something to do" i.e. a fun night out, get the family out of the house, etc., and not so many "diehard", this is my team, live and die by the results, type of fan.

That is not a bad thing.

I can already hear the English fans scoffing, they same way they do when they mock the beer garden, or craft food options, how we cheer or halftime shows etc. "I don't need all that stuff, I'm a true fan who only needs the game in front of me".

That's great, and good for them. But that's not enough, if it was stadiums would be full. That casual sort of fan is exactly who you need to attract and keep coming back - probably not season ticket holders, but every couple of weeks or months when they ask "what do you guys wanna do this weekend?". You need more of those fans who may not know the players, or really care who wins the game or league or what league they're in, but has a good time so they come back.

Edited September 8 by TheReaper

[Eddie 2,642]

1 minute ago, TheReaper said:

I think minor leagues have a much greater percentage of fans who are there for "something to do" i.e. a fun night out, get the family out of the house, etc., and not so many "diehard", this is my team, live and die by the results, type of fan.

That is not a bad thing.

I can already hear the English fans scoffing, they same way they do when they mock the beer garden, or craft food options, how we cheer or halftime shows etc. "I don't need all that stuff, I'm a true fan who only needs the game in front of me".

That's great, and good for them. But that's not enough, if it was stadiums would be full. That casual sort of fan is exactly who you need to attract and keep coming back - probably not season ticket holders, but every couple of weeks or months when they ask "what do you guys wanna do this weekend?". You need more of those fans who may not know the players, or really care who wins the game or league or what league they're in, but has a good time so they come back.

Who mocks beer gardens? 

[TheReaper 1,225]

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Who mocks beer gardens? 

Seemingly every other poster on this site who can't come to grips with the fact that TWP had bigger crowds than their club after 1 year of existence.

[GUBRATS 4,105]

52 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

I think minor leagues have a much greater percentage of fans who are there for "something to do" i.e. a fun night out, get the family out of the house, etc., and not so many "diehard", this is my team, live and die by the results, type of fan.

That is not a bad thing.

I can already hear the English fans scoffing, they same way they do when they mock the beer garden, or craft food options, how we cheer or halftime shows etc. "I don't need all that stuff, I'm a true fan who only needs the game in front of me".

That's great, and good for them. But that's not enough, if it was stadiums would be full. That casual sort of fan is exactly who you need to attract and keep coming back - probably not season ticket holders, but every couple of weeks or months when they ask "what do you guys wanna do this weekend?". You need more of those fans who may not know the players, or really care who wins the game or league or what league they're in, but has a good time so they come back.

So you are saying the lower tiers ( minor leagues ) fans aren't as passionate about their sport in the US ? , And you say that is a good thing ? , Maybe they aren't as passionate because they know they are and will always be fans of lower tier ( minor league ) clubs  ?

Introduce licencing and the % of ' casual ' fans at the games will increase , because the overall numbers will go down 

Edited September 8 by GUBRATS

[Eddie 2,642]

21 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Seemingly every other poster on this site who can't come to grips with the fact that TWP had bigger crowds than their club after 1 year of existence.

A vocal minority. Most people thought it was great. 

[silverback 1,118]

51 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Seemingly every other poster on this site who can't come to grips with the fact that TWP had bigger crowds than their club after 1 year of existence.

Rubbish, we could all pack the stadiums to the rafters if  we do a bring 2 mates for nowt with season ticket holders,or get to correct gate for some  free craft beer tokens for a nice afternoon out, half a crowd dident even know a game were on at back or em,done em a world a good like.and that was from TWp fans on here many a time about crowds.it were a farce from start to finish.

[Robin Evans 3,913]

1 minute ago, silverback said:

Rubbish, we could all pack the stadiums to the rafters if  we do a bring 2 mates for nowt with season ticket holders,or get to correct gate for some  free craft beer tokens for a nice afternoon out, half a crowd dident even know a game were on at back or em,done em a world a good like.and that was from TWp fans on here many a time about crowds.it were a farce from start to finish.

There was about 10k in the stadium when I was there. It was just about full. We all had a cracking time.

[Jayme2020 219]

2 hours ago, TheReaper said:

I think minor leagues have a much greater percentage of fans who are there for "something to do" i.e. a fun night out, get the family out of the house, etc., and not so many "diehard", this is my team, live and die by the results, type of fan.

That is not a bad thing.

I can already hear the English fans scoffing, they same way they do when they mock the beer garden, or craft food options, how we cheer or halftime shows etc. "I don't need all that stuff, I'm a true fan who only needs the game in front of me".

That's great, and good for them. But that's not enough, if it was stadiums would be full. That casual sort of fan is exactly who you need to attract and keep coming back - probably not season ticket holders, but every couple of weeks or months when they ask "what do you guys wanna do this weekend?". You need more of those fans who may not know the players, or really care who wins the game or league or what league they're in, but has a good time so they come back.

Many AHL teams offer great ticket prices making it much cheaper then the NHL I also know some NHL teams offer 2-1 season tickets by NHL season tickets get free AHL tickets.

[GUBRATS 4,105]

7 minutes ago, Jayme2020 said:

Many AHL teams offer great ticket prices making it much cheaper then the NHL I also know some NHL teams offer 2-1 season tickets by NHL season tickets get free AHL tickets.

As it should be , it's reserve grade 

[Oldbear 509]

Attending an NHL game is out of the reach of most families. When my kids were younger we very rarely went to a Canucks game due to the cost. Minor league sport has a place in North America because it is affordable, as BP says a lot of people go for the night out but there are also a lot of people who are passionate about their teams and love to play spot the next superstar, having said that I don’t see that system working in the UK.

[Adelaide Tiger 1,451]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

CAS did well to retain around 80% of its support when they were relegated , but I doubt they'd retain anything like that if they found themselves outside a ring fenced top tier , it doesn't directly affect you , you still wouldn't be able to attend the games , you'd probably still lose interest as well though as your opportunities to watch them on the TV would also decline drastically 

I like Robin and Harry would drop off the regular attending if ' locked out ' , I did so last time going from 95% home and probably 70% away , to just the big games ( knock out , ie , a consequence of losing ) and the occasional day trip for a beer to my favourite away venues 

Gubrats, you and I are on opposite sides of this argument.

We can either keep trotting out the same old argument for another 257 pages or we can look for a solution that encourages expansion, retains P&R and grows the game at a local, national and Northern Hemisphere level

I believe that there is a way forward and it has been mentioned many times on this site.

If the RFL/SL/Broadcasters and whoever else sat down and developed a five to ten year strategy with the aim of creating 2 x 10 professional leagues then we can all get what we want.

The advantages of a 2 league system with a total of 20 full time professional teams

1.  If the RFL/SL announced this in 2021 that it would commence in 2023 or 2024 then it gives all existing clubs across the 3 leagues plus possible new entities to work towards being in a position to submit a bid to be part of the new model

2. Currently we already have 12 full time teams (including Toronto).  I believe Leigh, London and Toulouse could step up without any issue.  If the bids from Ottawa and NY are financially sound then that is two more.  So we would have 3 places up for grabs.

3.  By having a 2/3 year lead in it gives time for other clubs, for example, like Featherstone, Bradford, Newcastle, York, Coventry or even Red Star or Avignon to attract investors with the opportunity to promote their business on a wider scale.  Remember we are not after mega money sponsorship deals for each club but income streams that match existing SL clubs.

4. And yes, it does mean that initially the standard of teams will be similar to now as the same pool of players (with some additions from SH) will be used.  But long term the aim would be to have a sport that is more visible and therefore more attractive to players from both inside and outside ‘heartlands’ territory.

5.  That the TV money is split 50/50 between the leagues to create a level playing field meaning that a relegated club can cope with relegation and a promoted team does not have to over extend themselves to compete.

6.  The introduction of the concept of P&R could just be the niche that attracts viewers and the media in the NA market.  This is our point of difference to the NA market.  This could cause a sensation on NA tv if New York, Toronto, Ottawa were either at risk of relegation or in the mix for promotion.

7.  The retention of division 3 for existing teams that are not selected into the 2 leagues or are just happy to remain at that level of competition and the league to be an opportunity for developing clubs.

8.  All clubs to run a reserve and academy teams with NA clubs having their reserve and academy located in the UK.  There reserves could play in an existing league in NA if possible.

8.  No P&R between league 2 and league 3.

9.  When the new structure commences the RFL announce that at least 2 new teams will be added every 3 years if they meet the criteria (or more if existing teams in league 1 or 2 fail to meet their obligations).  This would send out a positive message to teams in league 3 or potential new investors in a new club be they in the UK or further afield.  This evolvement could be linked to each new TV deal.

Current disadvantages are

1.  Elstone or whoever needs to convince the broadcasters to fund such a new competition so that all 20 clubs have TV money that is at least equal to what they currently receive in SL ..... ahhhhh I see a potential flaw in my plan

2.  That some people will then say ‘This will stop Hunslet, South Wales et al from having a shot at promotion’ ..... ahhhhhhhhhh! another major flaw.

Bu**er, here’s to another 257 pages of ar$e gravy between us all 

Edited September 9 by Adelaide Tiger

[GUBRATS 4,105]

2 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Gubrats, you and I are on opposite sides of this argument.

We can either keep trotting out the same old argument for another 257 pages or we can look for a solution that encourages expansion, retains P&R and grows the game at a local, national and Northern Hemisphere level

I believe that there is a way forward and it has been mentioned many times on this site.

If the RFL/SL/Broadcasters and whoever else sat down and developed a five to ten year strategy with the aim of creating 2 x 10 professional leagues then we can all get what we want.

The advantages of a 2 league system with a total of 20 full time professional teams

1.  If the RFL/SL announced this in 2021 that it would commence in 2023 or 2024 then it gives all existing clubs across the 3 leagues plus possible new entities to work towards being in a position to submit a bid to be part of the new model

2. Currently we already have 12 full time teams (including Toronto).  I believe Leigh, London and Toulouse could step up without any issue.  If the bids from Ottawa and NY are financially sound then that is two more.  So we would have 3 places up for grabs.

3.  By having a 2/3 year lead in it gives time for other clubs, for example, like Featherstone, Bradford, Newcastle, York, Coventry or even Red Star or Avignon to attract investors with the opportunity to promote their business on a wider scale.  Remember we are not after mega money sponsorship deals for each club but income streams that match existing SL clubs.

4. And yes, it does mean that initially the standard of teams will be similar to now as the same pool of players (with some additions from SH) will be used.  But long term the aim would be to have a sport that is more visible and therefore more attractive to players from both inside and outside ‘heartlands’ territory.

5.  That the TV money is split 50/50 between the leagues to create a level playing field meaning that a relegated club can cope with relegation and a promoted team does not have to over extend themselves to compete.

6.  The introduction of the concept of P&R could just be the niche that attracts viewers and the media in the NA market.  This is our point of difference to the NA market.  This could cause a sensation on NA tv if New York, Toronto, Ottawa were either at risk of relegation or in the mix for promotion.

7.  The retention of division 3 for existing teams that are not selected into the 2 leagues or are just happy to remain at that level of competition and the league to be an opportunity for developing clubs.

8.  All clubs to run a reserve and academy teams with NA clubs having their reserve and academy located in the UK.  There reserves could play in an existing league in NA if possible.

8.  No P&R between league 2 and league 3.

9.  When the new structure commences the RFL announce that at least 2 new teams will be added every 3 years if they meet the criteria (or more if existing teams in league 1 or 2 fail to meet their obligations).  This would send out a positive message to teams in league 3 or potential new investors in a new club be they in the UK or further afield.  This evolvement could be linked to each new TV deal.

Current disadvantages are

1.  Elstone or whoever needs to convince the broadcasters to fund such a new competition so that all 20 clubs have TV money that is at least equal to what they currently receive in SL ..... ahhhhh I see a potential flaw in my plan

2.  That some people will then say ‘This will stop Hunslet, South Wales et al from having a shot at promotion’ ..... ahhhhhhhhhh! another major flaw.

Bu**er, here’s to another 257 pages of ar$e gravy between us all 

[gingerjon 13,691]

7 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

As it should be , it's reserve grade 

Just a different way of framing the tier below the elite level. It wouldn't work over here. Not as formally anyway.

But it's the same way the Championship is cheaper than Super League to watch and has players whose dream is not to be playing in the Championship for much longer.

[Adelaide Tiger 1,451]

38 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Ar$e gravy it is then

[Harry Stottle 3,516]

17 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Good evening Harry.

Ooohhhh! You are being a bit naughty asking where I live as you know Adelaide gives the game away.  Or are you dyslexic and think I mean Airedale which is a suburb of Cas?

I can only assume that you are having a cheap shot by insinuating that because I live in Adelaide I should not have an opinion about R.L. in the UK.

FYI I started watching Cas around 1972 as an 8 year old with my Dad.  I started being a junior season ticket holder around 1976 and remained a season ticket holder till 2006 when we migrated to Adelaide.  Therefore I have invested 34 years watching the team and 14 years following them from afar.  I am still in the weekly lottery, a member of the Supporters Club and buy merchandise as do the other 3 members of the family.

Please let me know if this is enough to enable me to make comment on R.L. in the UK, or has my decision to give my two daughters a better opportunity in life automatically barred me from any discussion on the subject.

P.S. I have looked at your poster name and if you really are Aristotle do you still live in Greece

Thank you for the answer AT, I can see you still have some involvement with Cas from your post, but considering the tone of the discussion was about attending games relevant to the games structure being altered you did say "I will still support my team" it promted me to ask the question I did.

It has always amused me this "I support" phrase, if you lived around where I live were accessibility to Manchester's City and United and Liverpool's club of that name plus Everton, when these clubs are on TV the pubs are packed with "supporters" of any of the teams, I would guess the majority of them would have never been anywhere near the grounds of their chosen club, so in my mind these "supporters" devoid of the physicality of actually attending and supporting the club, are just people who 'favour' a particular club.

So yes I was being pedantic when I posed the question to your statement, further have I ever even suggested that you should not have any input in this or any other site for that matter, do keep up the posts you make some very relevant points and we have had some good discussions irrespective of whether we agree with each or not.

PS, it was always going to be a problem and I have suffered most of my life for it when my parents Albert and Edith Stottle decided to call me Harry.

Edited September 9 by Harry Stottle

[fighting irish 1,249]

16 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Because I love the sport and have for going on 25 years now.  Like most others here I hate seeing it slowly fall further and further behind other sports here in the northern hemisphere.  Unlike you and they, I've come to understand that no answer to that problem can be found within the game's existing structure in the UK.

 

 

I've asked you this before BP and you declined to answer. So I'll give it another shot.

Your Big City league is a laudable goal but my question is, how do you get from here to there?

You are convinced we can't grow from within the existing structure, so how can it be done from without?

You pick 12 cities, I'll grant you the Billionaire backers, what next?

How do you create the teams (and sustain them) if the English player factories close down?

[Harry Stottle 3,516]

4 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Gubrats, you and I are on opposite sides of this argument.

We can either keep trotting out the same old argument for another 257 pages or we can look for a solution that encourages expansion, retains P&R and grows the game at a local, national and Northern Hemisphere level

I believe that there is a way forward and it has been mentioned many times on this site.

If the RFL/SL/Broadcasters and whoever else sat down and developed a five to ten year strategy with the aim of creating 2 x 10 professional leagues then we can all get what we want.

The advantages of a 2 league system with a total of 20 full time professional teams

1.  If the RFL/SL announced this in 2021 that it would commence in 2023 or 2024 then it gives all existing clubs across the 3 leagues plus possible new entities to work towards being in a position to submit a bid to be part of the new model

2. Currently we already have 12 full time teams (including Toronto).  I believe Leigh, London and Toulouse could step up without any issue.  If the bids from Ottawa and NY are financially sound then that is two more.  So we would have 3 places up for grabs.

3.  By having a 2/3 year lead in it gives time for other clubs, for example, like Featherstone, Bradford, Newcastle, York, Coventry or even Red Star or Avignon to attract investors with the opportunity to promote their business on a wider scale.  Remember we are not after mega money sponsorship deals for each club but income streams that match existing SL clubs.

4. And yes, it does mean that initially the standard of teams will be similar to now as the same pool of players (with some additions from SH) will be used.  But long term the aim would be to have a sport that is more visible and therefore more attractive to players from both inside and outside ‘heartlands’ territory.

5.  That the TV money is split 50/50 between the leagues to create a level playing field meaning that a relegated club can cope with relegation and a promoted team does not have to over extend themselves to compete.

6.  The introduction of the concept of P&R could just be the niche that attracts viewers and the media in the NA market.  This is our point of difference to the NA market.  This could cause a sensation on NA tv if New York, Toronto, Ottawa were either at risk of relegation or in the mix for promotion.

7.  The retention of division 3 for existing teams that are not selected into the 2 leagues or are just happy to remain at that level of competition and the league to be an opportunity for developing clubs.

8.  All clubs to run a reserve and academy teams with NA clubs having their reserve and academy located in the UK.  There reserves could play in an existing league in NA if possible.

8.  No P&R between league 2 and league 3.

9.  When the new structure commences the RFL announce that at least 2 new teams will be added every 3 years if they meet the criteria (or more if existing teams in league 1 or 2 fail to meet their obligations).  This would send out a positive message to teams in league 3 or potential new investors in a new club be they in the UK or further afield.  This evolvement could be linked to each new TV deal.

Current disadvantages are

1.  Elstone or whoever needs to convince the broadcasters to fund such a new competition so that all 20 clubs have TV money that is at least equal to what they currently receive in SL ..... ahhhhh I see a potential flaw in my plan

2.  That some people will then say ‘This will stop Hunslet, South Wales et al from having a shot at promotion’ ..... ahhhhhhhhhh! another major flaw.

Bu**er, here’s to another 257 pages of ar$e gravy between us all 

To commence in 2023 or '24? and you mention that stubborn and varying word 'Criteria' which can have different connotations from whoever brings it up.

I can see you have made proviso for clubs to attract investors and sponsership to suit their requirements does this include 'Capital Investment'?

With the best will in the world there are some clubs you mention  - and honestly I wish it wasn't so - who's stadia is not befitting of this bright and shiney concept you have so eloquently suggested, unfortunately your club sits bang right in the middle of this discussion and without the Local Government, Investor Capex or both working in unison to make it a reality for not one but two clubs (including Wakefield) either individually for each club or a dual purpose facility erected to suit both I simply cannot see how this could  be acheived in under 6 or 7 years UNLESS plans are in place and have been approved and monies allocated already to finance new sites or radically improve existing ones.

It beggars the question how would some other suggested clubs like Bradford or London fare, but the big difference is there are other facilities within their immediate catchment that they could 'rent' and utilise. By my reckoning there are 14 clubs in rented or part owned facilities (not including yet to be established clubs) that would come into consideration to be included your suggested 2 x 10 system so there is not a problem in that, BUT Is that avaiable within Wakefield MDC? Or would these two teams have to up sticks and franchise to another area?

Whilst I think your suggestion is good you have already highlighted two potential flaws, I would say this I have eluded to is the biggest especially for fans of both clubs. 

PS did you overlook Widnes purposefully?

PPS. Writing this prompted me to have a look to which clubs are actually in rented or part owned facilities in our League system and it surprised me there were so many if I have got it correct, namely, Wigan, Hull FC, Salford, Huddersfield, Leigh, London, Bradford, Halifax, York, Widnes, Coventry, Doncaster, Swinton, Hunslet, Sheffield, Oldham, Rochdale, North Wales, West Wales, London Skolars, and of course Toronto, Ottawa and Toulouse. 

If I have got any wrong or missed a club, please amend as appropriate, anyone.

[Harry Stottle 3,516]

24 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I've asked you this before BP and you declined to answer. So I'll give it another shot.

Your Big City league is a laudable goal but my question is, how do you get from here to there?

You are convinced we can't grow from within the existing structure, so how can it be done from without?

You pick 12 cities, I'll grant you the Billionaire backers, what next?

How do you create the teams (and sustain them) if the English player factories close down?

But they won't Irish is the answer, in fact there will be more hopefuls clamouring to take up the game over here, simply because the opportunity to play and live in these exotic locations will be available to them so I have been told, Irrespective of there being far less people to teach them the game doesn't even come into the equation.