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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I don’t think it is a reflection on anyone. They’re not duty bound to release these details behind their findings. 

I think its more likely that their are no details, which is why the RFL came to the opposite conclusion. Even if you want to discount Leeds, Saints and Catalans votes as being anti-Elstone or pro-expansion, the RFL vote is a bit of a stinger. 

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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

Your assuming there actually is any detail in their findings.

And you’re assuming there isn’t. Who knows, you might be right, I might be right but they’re not going to release the report and any supporting evidence to the report (if there is any) and nor should they be expected to. 

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On a related topic - will SLE now be pursuing Mr Argyll so that they can get the money to pay the TWP players and refund the RL hardship fund? It was variously announced that he had given a 'cast iron guarantee' of an unbreakable promise. If he has no cash, chase him for assets.

If the guarantee was BS, who in SLE did the due diligence on this?

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42 minutes ago, RugbyFan99 said:

On a related topic - will SLE now be pursuing Mr Argyll so that they can get the money to pay the TWP players and refund the RL hardship fund? It was variously announced that he had given a 'cast iron guarantee' of an unbreakable promise. If he has no cash, chase him for assets.

If the guarantee was BS, who in SLE did the due diligence on this?

Would you expect them to pursue Argyle anymore vigorously than they have pursued other former owners that have bailed on clubs and left a long line of creditors?

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1 hour ago, RugbyFan99 said:

On a related topic - will SLE now be pursuing Mr Argyll so that they can get the money to pay the TWP players and refund the RL hardship fund? It was variously announced that he had given a 'cast iron guarantee' of an unbreakable promise. If he has no cash, chase him for assets.

If the guarantee was BS, who in SLE did the due diligence on this?

Under which jurisdiction would you expect them to waste their money?

Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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Always admired McDermott both as player and coach, admire him a bit more now. 

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"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Let’s get this right.

For all the genuine interest and excellent crowds (and some great people as part of their fanbase) they generated, Toronto were style over substance BS merchants who ultimately let down the game, didn’t put rugby balls in kids’ hands as per their mission statement and left bills unpaid with seemingly anyone associated with them. 

They simply couldn’t be trusted and paid the price for that. Despite the holes in their business plan - and the lack of evidence for their commercial value to the wider game - the vote may have gone another way if they’d been above board. 

Covid was obviously a factor but it has to be remembered that Toronto were 0-6 and the novelty value was running thin when the season was suspended. We’ll never know for sure but they were favourites to be relegated. 

Would Argyle have stuck around after this year even without Covid given the utter horlicks they’d made of recruitment?

Tonight Brian McDermott repeatedly said Argyle had a ‘turbulent’ attitude to financing Toronto pre-Covid, when it struck he dropped them like a stone.

My point is if I was a Toronto fan I’d be just as frustrated by the owners and directors of the Wolfpack as with Super League clubs and directors. The ‘Ooh, Super League are so selfish and nasty and it’s all their fault’ attitude is a pathetic one.

Edited by Man of Kent
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Just now, Man of Kent said:

Let’s get this right.

For all the genuine interest and excellent crowds (and some great people as part of their fanbase) they generated, Toronto were style over substance BS merchants who ultimately let down the game, didn’t put rugby balls in kids’ hands as per their mission statement and left bills unpaid with seemingly anyone associated with them. 

They simply couldn’t be trusted and paid the price for that. Despite the holes in their business plan - and the lack of evidence for their commercial value for the wider game - the vote may have gone another way if they’d been above board. 

Covid was obviously a factor but it has to be remembered that Toronto were 0-6 and the novelty value was running thin when the season was suspended. We’ll never know for sure but they were favourites to be relegated. 

Would Argyle have stuck around after this year even without Covid given the utter horlicks they’d made of recruitment?

Tonight Brian McDermott repeatedly said Argyle had a ‘turbulent’ attitude to financing Toronto pre-Covid, when it struck he dropped them like a stone.

My point is if I was a Toronto fan I’d be just as frustrated by the owners and directors of the Wolfpack as with Super League clubs and directors. The ‘Ooh, Super League are so selfish and nasty and it’s all their fault’ attitude is a pathetic one.

Was it running thin? Toronto at home on a televised Thursday night was a better crowd than a non televised Friday night against a well followed Hull KR.

The rest is conjecture.

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1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Was it running thin? Toronto at home on a televised Thursday night was a better crowd than a non televised Friday night against a well followed Hull KR.

The rest is conjecture.

That game at Warrington (against Saints, as I recall) in front of nobody looked absolutely awful. 

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1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

That game at Warrington (against Saints, as I recall) in front of nobody looked absolutely awful. 

Unsurprising. If Leeds played a "home game" at Warrington I'd expect it to look similar. 

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1 minute ago, Smudger06 said:

Mcdermott Cant turn round and gripe, expect clubs to pay out for travel to another continent on the off chance it'll benefit them or the sport sometime deep in the future when they've got wages to pay. 

He's doing a pretty good impression of it

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- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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On 05/11/2020 at 16:46, Big Picture said:

Green Bay isn't just Green Bay's team though, through various initiatives (such as playing two home matches a year in Milwaukee decades ago) they made themselves Wisconsin's team rather than just Green Bay's team.  Green Bay also benefits from its association with the big city teams which make up the NFL.  And it's the one and only major league franchise in North America not based in a big city.

The Bundesliga does have teams in some smaller cities, but they likewise all benefit from their association with the big city teams in Berlin, Munich, Cologne, Frankfurt, Dortmund, etc.  Barbarians aren't a club as such, they're an invitational team which only plays half a dozen times a year.

None of that applies to RL though, because it has no presence to speak of in Britain's major cities and thus St Helens can't benefit from the same type of association with big city teams like Green Bay and VfL Wolfsburg can.  British RL can't sell that exciting rugby team because without the big cities involved it can't bring in the sort of money needed to do that.

This forum is sadly littered with people who can't see the wood for the trees on this. Most likely because they are a different demographic and don't understand the insta generation. It's quite clear most clubs/the game doesn't either. They are the future and they are aspirational. Kids these days don't aspire to play for their local town team. They want moments, glamour, highlights they can post - you only have to see how succesful insta influencers are and how much they are worth. And where are they posting from? Glamorous places - whether that's cool, hip or fancy bars/hotels/restaurants in trendy UK cities such as Manchester, Leeds, London or cool, hip and fancy destinations such as Dubai, Maldives, cities such as New York, Sydney, LA, Toronto. They are dreamers - Toronto were aspirational and something people could believe and strive for. It was also an opportunity to change the mindset of our sport as a northern working class sport. That we may ultimately be, but does that attract sponsors, and brands that are also aspirational? Of course not........we had an opportunity to re-position ourselves and have sadly blown it (albeit i recognise the financial viability of Toronto's submission may not have been robust enough). RL/SL as it is, littered amongst small, deprived, working class towns in the north (bar Leeds, Catalans and perhaps Warrington which has become quite sprawling) is so far from aspirational or attractive to the youth of today, sponsors and commercially savvy brands that it's beyond belief. Foot shot again 🙄

On 05/11/2020 at 17:12, Hela Wigmen said:

It works well enough in Rugby Union with their events between sides that are no bigger than our biggest names. How they do it, I’m not sure entirely as it’s not my field (though it’s something I’m looking into) but it would suggest it’s possible. 

Even you are admitting you're clueless now...............I saved you the time with this earlier 🙂

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24 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Let’s get this right.

For all the genuine interest and excellent crowds (and some great people as part of their fanbase) they generated, Toronto were style over substance BS merchants who ultimately let down the game, didn’t put rugby balls in kids’ hands as per their mission statement and left bills unpaid with seemingly anyone associated with them. 

They simply couldn’t be trusted and paid the price for that. Despite the holes in their business plan - and the lack of evidence for their commercial value to the wider game - the vote may have gone another way if they’d been above board. 

Covid was obviously a factor but it has to be remembered that Toronto were 0-6 and the novelty value was running thin when the season was suspended. We’ll never know for sure but they were favourites to be relegated. 

Would Argyle have stuck around after this year even without Covid given the utter horlicks they’d made of recruitment?

Tonight Brian McDermott repeatedly said Argyle had a ‘turbulent’ attitude to financing Toronto pre-Covid, when it struck he dropped them like a stone.

My point is if I was a Toronto fan I’d be just as frustrated by the owners and directors of the Wolfpack as with Super League clubs and directors. The ‘Ooh, Super League are so selfish and nasty and it’s all their fault’ attitude is a pathetic one.

Yes but virtually the same was said about the owner of Celtic Crusaders and probably many others before that.
Why raise everyone’s hopes and expectations each time and then disappoint them ?

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