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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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17 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Let’s get this right.

For all the genuine interest and excellent crowds (and some great people as part of their fanbase) they generated, Toronto were style over substance BS merchants who ultimately let down the game, didn’t put rugby balls in kids’ hands as per their mission statement and left bills unpaid with seemingly anyone associated with them. 

They simply couldn’t be trusted and paid the price for that. Despite the holes in their business plan - and the lack of evidence for their commercial value to the wider game - the vote may have gone another way if they’d been above board. 

Covid was obviously a factor but it has to be remembered that Toronto were 0-6 and the novelty value was running thin when the season was suspended. We’ll never know for sure but they were favourites to be relegated. 

Would Argyle have stuck around after this year even without Covid given the utter horlicks they’d made of recruitment?

Tonight Brian McDermott repeatedly said Argyle had a ‘turbulent’ attitude to financing Toronto pre-Covid, when it struck he dropped them like a stone.

My point is if I was a Toronto fan I’d be just as frustrated by the owners and directors of the Wolfpack as with Super League clubs and directors. The ‘Ooh, Super League are so selfish and nasty and it’s all their fault’ attitude is a pathetic one.

There is so much in this post that I agree with, only a couple of points which I may take issue with.

Their dealings with suppliers, and their attitude for paying bills, was appalling, and it would for sure influence my decision if I were to be asked to decide on their future. Not paying players and suppliers is just wrong. I also suspect the vote may have gone the other way but for their past shenanigans, and that’s even before the whole visa saga is raised.

I suspect the 0-6 start may actually have influenced Argyles actions. He had spent a lot of money on a team that, had Covid not struck, must have been possibles for losing every game this season, certainly they were not going to win any games outside Canada, and may only have scraped 2 or 3 wins at Lamport. Try selling such an uncompetitive team to a Canadian broadcaster, maybe he thought that he had no chance of doing that, was guaranteed to be relegated and Covid gave him the out he was looking for. We will never really know.

Development was pretty much non existent, why I don’t know. Again I have suspected that as TWP needed rugby fans of both codes to show up to games, at least until enough committed new fans were on board, Argyle took the decision not to antagonize Union, which would have been the case had RL development been successful in Unions backyard. I know it’s often said that there are no problems between the two codes in Canada but that’s the case while RL is fledgling and weak, I know a few RU people through my sons involvement in that sport and believe me that position could well have changed had RL shown signs of becoming more popular.

As an RL fan in Canada I feel frustrated by everything that has happened with TWP. Yes the attitude of some within the game has annoyed me, as has some of the comments made by some of the games so called fans, however I am also annoyed by the actions of Mr Argyle and his management team (not McDermott or previously Rowley, I’m thinking particularly Noble and Vickers), who had a great chance to establish the sport, I thank him for his investment but feel things needed to be planned so much better.

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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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29 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Mcdermott Cant turn round and gripe, expect clubs to pay out for travel to another continent on the off chance it'll benefit them or the sport sometime deep in the future when they've got wages to pay. 

Presumably the other clubs knew where Toronto was when they invited them in, in the first place?

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We say this is “the greatest game of all” but then tell teams, clubs, towns from outside the M62 corridor “sorry you can’t join in” 

As McDermott reminded us they didn’t get a share of the sky money. Aren’t Catalan “guests” and not members of SL?

So Toronto are just another lost opportunity along with PSG, welsh clubs, Russia, Georgia et al 

pathetic

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7 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

Presumably the other clubs knew where Toronto was when they invited them in, in the first place?

Come on, at the time of the initial agreement SL thought they would fold or relocate to somewhere reasonable well b4 they ever came knocking at their door. 

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3 minutes ago, Phil said:

We say this is “the greatest game of all” but then tell teams, clubs, towns from outside the M62 corridor “sorry you can’t join in” 

As McDermott reminded us they didn’t get a share of the sky money. Aren’t Catalan “guests” and not members of SL?

So Toronto are just another lost opportunity along with PSG, welsh clubs, Russia, Georgia et al 

pathetic

Catalan are members of SL, but guest, not member of RFL. 

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Toronto were admitted to the RFL pyramid. 

They were admitted into SL. 

People need to stop saying we didn't let them in. We did. 

They behaved poorly, were pretty rubbish and left SL of their own accord. 

I haven't seen their entry to know whether they should be back in. Anybody who complains they should be in without knowing their business plan are acting like the RFL has in the past, not doing due diligence. 

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34 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

This forum is sadly littered with people who can't see the wood for the trees on this. Most likely because they are a different demographic and don't understand the insta generation. It's quite clear most clubs/the game doesn't either. They are the future and they are aspirational. Kids these days don't aspire to play for their local town team. They want moments, glamour, highlights they can post - you only have to see how succesful insta influencers are and how much they are worth. And where are they posting from? Glamorous places - whether that's cool, hip or fancy bars/hotels/restaurants in trendy UK cities such as Manchester, Leeds, London or cool, hip and fancy destinations such as Dubai, Maldives, cities such as New York, Sydney, LA, Toronto. They are dreamers - Toronto were aspirational and something people could believe and strive for. It was also an opportunity to change the mindset of our sport as a northern working class sport. That we may ultimately be, but does that attract sponsors, and brands that are also aspirational? Of course not........we had an opportunity to re-position ourselves and have sadly blown it (albeit i recognise the financial viability of Toronto's submission may not have been robust enough). RL/SL as it is, littered amongst small, deprived, working class towns in the north (bar Leeds, Catalans and perhaps Warrington which has become quite sprawling) is so far from aspirational or attractive to the youth of today, sponsors and commercially savvy brands that it's beyond belief. Foot shot again 🙄

Even you are admitting you're clueless now...............I saved you the time with this earlier 🙂

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37 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Toronto were admitted to the RFL pyramid. 

They were admitted into SL. 

People need to stop saying we didn't let them in. We did. 

They behaved poorly, were pretty rubbish and left SL of their own accord. 

I haven't seen their entry to know whether they should be back in. Anybody who complains they should be in without knowing their business plan are acting like the RFL has in the past, not doing due diligence. 

The thread should be closed here. 

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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Let’s get this right.

For all the genuine interest and excellent crowds (and some great people as part of their fanbase) they generated, Toronto were style over substance BS merchants who ultimately let down the game, didn’t put rugby balls in kids’ hands as per their mission statement and left bills unpaid with seemingly anyone associated with them. 

They simply couldn’t be trusted and paid the price for that. Despite the holes in their business plan - and the lack of evidence for their commercial value to the wider game - the vote may have gone another way if they’d been above board. 

Covid was obviously a factor but it has to be remembered that Toronto were 0-6 and the novelty value was running thin when the season was suspended. We’ll never know for sure but they were favourites to be relegated. 

Would Argyle have stuck around after this year even without Covid given the utter horlicks they’d made of recruitment?

Tonight Brian McDermott repeatedly said Argyle had a ‘turbulent’ attitude to financing Toronto pre-Covid, when it struck he dropped them like a stone.

My point is if I was a Toronto fan I’d be just as frustrated by the owners and directors of the Wolfpack as with Super League clubs and directors. The ‘Ooh, Super League are so selfish and nasty and it’s all their fault’ attitude is a pathetic one.

A really good summary. 

They've brought some great innovations and great enthusiasm, but attitude towards other clubs and the unpaid bills throughout their existence stinks. Having a "they need us more than we need them" attitude towards their fellow clubs was not so clever when they needed their support.

A shame because the potential for expansion into North America has been severely damaged by those supposedly working towards it, though I know many here go for the easy route of blaming SL.

 

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I’m really getting mightily sick of this thread and how many times a day I have to come to it because of reports. 

Some people need to get thicker skins, especially if they raise controversial points. Others need to stop baiting others because they can’t tolerate people with different views to theirs.

I can’t be bothered digging through these two reports that are open because it’s much the same, yet again.

And, if you bring rugby union into a rugby thread then you really have little ground for complaint when someone snaps at you...

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2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Toronto were admitted to the RFL pyramid. 

They were admitted into SL. 

People need to stop saying we didn't let them in. We did. 

They behaved poorly, were pretty rubbish and left SL of their own accord. 

I haven't seen their entry to know whether they should be back in. Anybody who complains they should be in without knowing their business plan are acting like the RFL has in the past, not doing due diligence. 

It's just a surprise that players who have not been paid,a former head coach - with some success in the sport,and many of the rugby league loving supporters new to the game and only able to attend a small fraction of the games played,wanted the club to be re-admitted.

The club had already survived some controversial appointments.

I can't recall too many M62 Super League clubs disappearing after their first set of financial irregularities.

Fantastic how all those decisions were made and a 12 club Super League and promotional videos from overseas were put together - almost before word,and decision,got out.

Still,we know those who support the governing  bodies,all their decisions,and despite how the sport appears to any right thinking individual,considers the sport can actually conduct due diligence and all is well for the greatest game, as it continues to fragment and disappear.

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1 hour ago, ckn said:

I’m really getting mightily sick of this thread and how many times a day I have to come to it because of reports. 

Some people need to get thicker skins, especially if they raise controversial points. Others need to stop baiting others because they can’t tolerate people with different views to theirs.

I can’t be bothered digging through these two reports that are open because it’s much the same, yet again.

And, if you bring rugby union into a rugby thread then you really have little ground for complaint when someone snaps at you...

Just ban um 😁

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3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Was it running thin? Toronto at home on a televised Thursday night was a better crowd than a non televised Friday night against a well followed Hull KR.

The rest is conjecture.

Was that because everybody thought they'd signed Sonny Bill Williams ? 

And not a lookalike ?

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1 hour ago, Angelic Cynic said:

It's just a surprise that players who have not been paid,a former head coach - with some success in the sport,and many of the rugby league loving supporters new to the game and only able to attend a small fraction of the games played,wanted the club to be re-admitted.

The club had already survived some controversial appointments.

I can't recall too many M62 Super League clubs disappearing after their first set of financial irregularities.

Fantastic how all those decisions were made and a 12 club Super League and promotional videos from overseas were put together - almost before word,and decision,got out.

Still,we know those who support the governing  bodies,all their decisions,and despite how the sport appears to any right thinking individual,considers the sport can actually conduct due diligence and all is well for the greatest game, as it continues to fragment and disappear.

Is it a surprise that players who are owed money wanted a Yes decision that would see them paid? I'd have thought that was an obvious conflict of interest on their view on whether the bid was right for SL. 

Your point about others suffering financial irregularities means little - Toronto left SL of their own accord. 

Other clubs putting a bid together - well talk has been around for a while that a mini-licensing process may decide a 12th team if the TWP bid failed. It seems prudent that clubs would put effort into a sales pitch. 

Your last paragraph is your usual nonsense - you do realise that you are now on the RFL's side - an organisation you regularly slate. 

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3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Toronto were admitted to the RFL pyramid. 

They were admitted into SL. 

People need to stop saying we didn't let them in. We did. 

They behaved poorly, were pretty rubbish and left SL of their own accord. 

I haven't seen their entry to know whether they should be back in. Anybody who complains they should be in without knowing their business plan are acting like the RFL has in the past, not doing due diligence. 

Sums it up well

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On 06/11/2020 at 10:47, Whippet13 said:

Thousands of fans just thrown away, completely insane.

I do wonder if the decision was directly influenced by the SL plan to cut £800k off the 12th club's funding. 

TWP said in advance they must have full central funding, but it now looks like SL had no intention of ever paying it.

Again its pathetic read Darcy lussick tweet.

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