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1 hour ago, HawkMan said:

It amazes me people still seriously think London has any future for TGG. As a born and bred Londoner I can tell you there is zilch interest and never will be. London has a dozen or so football league clubs plus more semi professional clubs outside the league getting good support.  London is also tribalised into football areas. People who have no interest in the game still.think of London as divided into football areas.  Heard people discuss where they live such as ," Barking ? , that's West Ham innit?"

I was recently in Edgeware on a bus and heard football being discussed and I slipped into wondering to myself,  " Edgeware mmm? Tottenham or Arsenal area don't know"

In cricket too there's a little bit of this tribalism,  not much but it's there. East London that's Essex, West,  Middlesex,  South ,Surrey . The concept of a London wide team where all Londoners get behind is just alien. Isn't there a London Basketball team though? Yeah MASSIVE aren't they I don't think. 

Perez obviously realises that London is a no go for RL. I'm sorry but it's TRUE.  Thirty years of trying and gates of 2000. Even RU clubs have not much presence. Newcastle looks very promising for the game and Coventry too. Perhaps the West country might be an area to look at, Bristol maybe.

Whilst there's limited interest in London (mainly because the game has no profile/limited presence there), it does have a future as a source for future players. There are a lot of talented athletes there to engage with..............many of the London players to have come through the system to professional level, have done by accident - they didn't know the sport before a teacher/volunteer got them involved. There's a huge base there which we've barely scratched the surface of. Which is why I thought it was ideal for Toronto to setup an academy from............

The game really needs an annual test in London to maintain support there - tests are always well supported in London but they're all too sporadic. We need to build momentum through a regular international calendar. You then tap into that fanbase (often casual fans) and entice them to the Challenge Cup Final, which has faded away from the casual sporting fans interest in recent years

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Why is it so difficult to separate the concept of popular super league team from actual pathways of juniors to super league players. London is doing it. 

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3 hours ago, HawkMan said:

It amazes me people still seriously think London has any future for TGG. As a born and bred Londoner I can tell you there is zilch interest and never will be. London has a dozen or so football league clubs plus more semi professional clubs outside the league getting good support.  London is also tribalised into football areas. People who have no interest in the game still.think of London as divided into football areas.  Heard people discuss where they live such as ," Barking ? , that's West Ham innit?"

I was recently in Edgeware on a bus and heard football being discussed and I slipped into wondering to myself,  " Edgeware mmm? Tottenham or Arsenal area don't know"

In cricket too there's a little bit of this tribalism,  not much but it's there. East London that's Essex, West,  Middlesex,  South ,Surrey . The concept of a London wide team where all Londoners get behind is just alien. Isn't there a London Basketball team though? Yeah MASSIVE aren't they I don't think. 

Perez obviously realises that London is a no go for RL. I'm sorry but it's TRUE.  Thirty years of trying and gates of 2000. Even RU clubs have not much presence. Newcastle looks very promising for the game and Coventry too. Perhaps the West country might be an area to look at, Bristol maybe.

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

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33 minutes ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

I agree, London just needs success

Success needs big investment 

Melbourne Storm size investment! 

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40 minutes ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

More than likely the number is a lot higher than 10 thousand, but how to get and then keep their interest?  39 years of experience suggests that having a London team(s) in a league dominated by teams from small northern towns won't do that.

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1 hour ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

I was responding to Bedfordshire Bronco's question why doesn't Perez throw his millions into London Broncos. Presumably he doesn't fancy throwing money down the drain. Yes certain London football teams have spent 120 years trying and get gates of 3000, but Perez doesn't want to create the RL version of Leyton Orient. The youth and grass roots work done in London is all splendid but how do Broncos tap into that and keep the talent.  Finances dictate any batch of players good enough to elevate Broncos to SL for good, will inevitably depart,  ask Salford. What is needed is a sugar daddy who'll hang around, take losses , reject selling on players until success brings the crowds in.  I'm not sure London with its multiple football teams is the right place.

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4 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

I was responding to Bedfordshire Bronco's question why doesn't Perez throw his millions into London Broncos. Presumably he doesn't fancy throwing money down the drain. Yes certain London football teams have spent 120 years trying and get gates of 3000, but Perez doesn't want to create the RL version of Leyton Orient. The youth and grass roots work done in London is all splendid but how do Broncos tap into that and keep the talent.  Finances dictate any batch of players good enough to elevate Broncos to SL for good, will inevitably depart,  ask Salford. What is needed is a sugar daddy who'll hang around, take losses , reject selling on players until success brings the crowds in.  I'm not sure London with its multiple football teams is the right place.

Eric Pérez doesn't have millions, he goes out and finds other investors with millions and they mostly live in the places where these clubs are being set up.  They'd never be interested in investing in a team across the ocean from where they live.

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21 hours ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

I disagree even back when London where hugely successful they were still getting small crowds

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2 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

I disagree even back when London where hugely successful they were still getting small crowds

Small in comparison to what?

Sorry, when were London hugely successful, the 2 seasons where we finished 2nd and then got to the CC final back in 1997/1999? Other than those seasons London has never been hugely successful. We had a few seasons where we just about got into the play offs and other than that we were with the other bottom clubs.

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Stop hijacking another thread about crowds of london broncos. That’s not the point! And crowd size doesn’t equate to junior development into professional players!

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On 19/03/2020 at 13:24, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I agree, London just needs success

Success needs big investment 

Melbourne Storm size investment! 

Agreed. If a Melbourne team can average 15 - 20k a game in a market where everything is actively against rugby league, London can work to. Oh and London has twice the population of Melbourne.

Investments is key. Last year in super league London didn't even spend the full salary cap. What a joke! Then we all act surprised and disapointed they get relegated. 

Imagine if the storm played under 30% less than the other nrl sides. They would come last each year and in 5 years time fold.

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20 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Agreed. If a Melbourne team can average 15 - 20k a game in a market where everything is actively against rugby league, London can work to. Oh and London has twice the population of Melbourne.

Investments is key. Last year in super league London didn't even spend the full salary cap. What a joke! Then we all act surprised and disapointed they get relegated. 

Imagine if the storm played under 30% less than the other nrl sides. They would come last each year and in 5 years time fold.

You can't compare Melbourne and London, for the simple reason that you can't compare the NRL and RFL/SL.  RL is big in Australia and being big has helped in succeed in Melbourne, whereas it's a small time regional game in the UK and that's something which will have to change for it to succeed in London.

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40 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You can't compare Melbourne and London, for the simple reason that you can't compare the NRL and RFL/SL.  RL is big in Australia and being big has helped in succeed in Melbourne, whereas it's a small time regional game in the UK and that's something which will have to change for it to succeed in London.

Fair point. But London Broncos lack of any real ambition kills any chance of success for London rugby league.

Step 1 of building rugby league in London is having a successful super league team. 

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20 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Fair point. But London Broncos lack of any real ambition kills any chance of success for London rugby league.

Step 1 of building rugby league in London is having a successful super league team. 

It's not only the Broncos' lack of ambition, it's also English RL's lack of ambition and small time ways.  For London to have a successful super league RL team, RL would first need to have a super league where that team could play but it doesn't.  What it has instead is a tarted-up version of the old regional RFL Championship which has pretended to be a super league since 1996.

If you asked 1000 Melburnians and 1000 Londoners "Is rugby league worthy of our city" or something similar (bypassing transplanted northerners in London and transplanted Sydneysiders in Melbourne) I suspect that you'd get very different answers.  "What's rugby league?" and the like might even be a fairly common answer among the Londoners, assuming that they didn't confuse it with RU.

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10 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It's not only the Broncos' lack of ambition, it's also English RL's lack of ambition and small time ways.  For London to have a successful super league RL team, RL would first need to have a super league where that team could play but it doesn't.  What it has instead is a tarted-up version of the old regional RFL Championship which has pretended to be a super league since 1996.

If you asked 1000 Melburnians and 1000 Londoners "Is rugby league worthy of our city" or something similar (bypassing transplanted northerners in London and transplanted Sydneysiders in Melbourne) I suspect that you'd get very different answers.  "What's rugby league?" and the like might even be a fairly common answer among the Londoners, assuming that they didn't confuse it with RU.

Broncos had big time ways has many and blew it.The sport is now in a position to basically start again.

That will of course exclude some big clubs nevermind the smaller ones.

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16 hours ago, AB90 said:

Agreed. If a Melbourne team can average 15 - 20k a game in a market where everything is actively against rugby league, London can work to. Oh and London has twice the population of Melbourne.

Investments is key. Last year in super league London didn't even spend the full salary cap. What a joke! Then we all act surprised and disapointed they get relegated. 

Imagine if the storm played under 30% less than the other nrl sides. They would come last each year and in 5 years time fold.

Yes it’s simple, all London need is someone with £5m a year to put into the club - I wonder why they’re not more successful. 

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15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It's not only the Broncos' lack of ambition, it's also English RL's lack of ambition and small time ways.  For London to have a successful super league RL team, RL would first need to have a super league where that team could play but it doesn't.  What it has instead is a tarted-up version of the old regional RFL Championship which has pretended to be a super league since 1996.

If you asked 1000 Melburnians and 1000 Londoners "Is rugby league worthy of our city" or something similar (bypassing transplanted northerners in London and transplanted Sydneysiders in Melbourne) I suspect that you'd get very different answers.  "What's rugby league?" and the like might even be a fairly common answer among the Londoners, assuming that they didn't confuse it with RU.

Broncos lack of ambition - have you heard yourself? 

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On 18/03/2020 at 09:38, Tommygilf said:

To be fair I think a lot of this depends on the coach. Perez has consistently been open minded about Canadians and their prospects but has also been consistent that the coach picks the playing squad. The Rowley recruitment method was clearly to go with players he'd worked with before - perhaps the vision of the squad could be what Perez begins his coaching interviews with.

C'mon Tommy, the 'Dream' spouted by Perez and Noble was to convert the Thousands of ready-made for Rugby League American Athletes who didn't make the grade at their own particular version of Football, this site was awash with video's and reports of the numerous auditions in various locations that took place and the end result was erm let's say rather dissapointing to not put a finer point on it.

Paul Rowley was always a winner on the field of play he never took a backward step, he was the same with a track suit on, and quite frankly I do not know a coach that isn't.

One thing that cannot be denied is that Mr Perez is a good salesman, he paints a good picture, but I am his nemesis a "sceptical buyer", I hope he proves me wrong and his reason for leaving Toronto was his vision of getting 'locals' involved was not bought into by the club.

Time will tell if Mr Perez will do as he says and wants to and include Canadians in his team at Ottawa, but he readily admits and a point I have discussed on here with our Canadian friends is that they do not care (in any of their sports) where the player's hail from, but they want to see a winning team, don't let them try to persuade you otherwise just look at their post content, and for that reason I think that  Mr Perez will default on his intention, especially if NY come into the equation and they are seemingly overtaking Ottawa.

 

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On 18/03/2020 at 10:38, ckn said:

Moderating note:

5 posts removed.

I seriously don't get how some people haven't done themselves a mischief given how angry they get over anyone more than a couple of miles from the M62 playing out sport. Give it a break for a while. Pretty please!

Hi CKN, sorry for the late response. 

On your carefully worded note, may I say this is a discussion site, I did not see the posts that you removed if they were of an insulting nature then I agree with you, but we as individuals have different opinions on this subject and your response clearly says which side of the fence you favour, I as much as the next guy want our sport to grow and grow but I see - my opinion - that this method of 'expansion' in Virgin territories could do our game more harm than good in the short term and that just may lead to a long term loss. I have penned those reason's more than once but there are those who neither have the capacity to discuss my deliberations or just see fit to use the insulting emoji response without comment.

People qoute Newcastle and London as equivalents of the expansion programme (both a couple of miles outside the M62) but they really do have an "Expansion" programme, and one which I can readily identify with. As I stated in a post above Mr Perez can only be judged if his future actions will be commensurate with his reported intentions, I somehow doubt it.

 

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi CKN, sorry for the late response. 

On your carefully worded note, may I say this is a discussion site, I did not see the posts that you removed if they were of an insulting nature then I agree with you, but we as individuals have different opinions on this subject and your response clearly says which side of the fence you favour, I as much as the next guy want our sport to grow and grow but I see - my opinion - that this method of 'expansion' in Virgin territories could do our game more harm than good in the short term and that just may lead to a long term loss. I have penned those reason's more than once but there are those who neither have the capacity to discuss my deliberations or just see fit to use the insulting emoji response without comment.

People qoute Newcastle and London as equivalents of the expansion programme (both a couple of miles outside the M62) but they really do have an "Expansion" programme, and one which I can readily identify with. As I stated in a post above Mr Perez can only be judged if his future actions will be commensurate with his reported intentions, I somehow doubt it.

 

They were insulting, and of the variant of "it's a northern sport for northern folk and the rest can sod off and leave us to OUR game".

Rational critique is always welcome.


"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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On 19/03/2020 at 13:33, Big Picture said:

More than likely the number is a lot higher than 10 thousand, but how to get and then keep their interest?  39 years of experience suggests that having a London team(s) in a league dominated by teams from small northern towns won't do that.

So if we get rid of the small Northern Towns who get people through the gates, accepted by the communities, and actually produce player's and substitute them for big city teams in the vast number of places you have suggested before everything is going to be just fine, is it?

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So if we get rid of the small Northern Towns who get people through the gates, accepted by the communities, and actually produce player's and substitute them for big city teams in the vast number of places you have suggested before everything is going to be just fine, is it?

These small northern towns dont get people.through the gates either. 

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13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

These small northern towns dont get people.through the gates either. 

Not in the numbers that I would wish for granted, but the game is there in the communitues and subsequently these small northern towns produce players which the game as a whole benefits from even including Leeds, have a look back over say just 20 years at the number of kids who have come through your academy system who hail from these small northern towns and not from within the confines of your city boundaries, now add in Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Hull et al

If the pro game is taken away from these towns, they will lose the focal point of Rugby League, the community game will suffer and subsequently the professional player converyor belt will not be ridden by enough player's.

You are far from thick Scotchy, you may be glassy eyed of how you see this 'expansion' programme unfolding, but thick you ain't, I only hope for the future sake of the game, that Toronto, Ottawa, New York and any other big city place that has been mentioned as necessary to the future well being of our sport starts producing player's pretty soon, for when the little northern town teams are no more, the game will really suffer.

NB I know it is not for this thread, but if the present situation deems that some of the clubs from the traditional areas fold, that will be the start of the decline of the game in those towns, it won't happen overnight but the slope will definatley begin to be tilted in wrong direction.

 

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