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33 minutes ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

I agree, London just needs success

Success needs big investment 

Melbourne Storm size investment! 

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40 minutes ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

More than likely the number is a lot higher than 10 thousand, but how to get and then keep their interest?  39 years of experience suggests that having a London team(s) in a league dominated by teams from small northern towns won't do that.

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1 hour ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

I was responding to Bedfordshire Bronco's question why doesn't Perez throw his millions into London Broncos. Presumably he doesn't fancy throwing money down the drain. Yes certain London football teams have spent 120 years trying and get gates of 3000, but Perez doesn't want to create the RL version of Leyton Orient. The youth and grass roots work done in London is all splendid but how do Broncos tap into that and keep the talent.  Finances dictate any batch of players good enough to elevate Broncos to SL for good, will inevitably depart,  ask Salford. What is needed is a sugar daddy who'll hang around, take losses , reject selling on players until success brings the crowds in.  I'm not sure London with its multiple football teams is the right place.

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4 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

I was responding to Bedfordshire Bronco's question why doesn't Perez throw his millions into London Broncos. Presumably he doesn't fancy throwing money down the drain. Yes certain London football teams have spent 120 years trying and get gates of 3000, but Perez doesn't want to create the RL version of Leyton Orient. The youth and grass roots work done in London is all splendid but how do Broncos tap into that and keep the talent.  Finances dictate any batch of players good enough to elevate Broncos to SL for good, will inevitably depart,  ask Salford. What is needed is a sugar daddy who'll hang around, take losses , reject selling on players until success brings the crowds in.  I'm not sure London with its multiple football teams is the right place.

Eric Pérez doesn't have millions, he goes out and finds other investors with millions and they mostly live in the places where these clubs are being set up.  They'd never be interested in investing in a team across the ocean from where they live.

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21 hours ago, Click said:

120 years of trying and crowds of 3k.

What is your point? London is a city of millions, you think there isnt 10 thousand in there somewhere that may enjoy RL? Clearly London and the SE have some appetite for the sport, as we keep producing players for it.

How many of those football clubs have been around for only 30 years? They've been supporting their team before they were born and grown up around it. London RL doesn't have that luxury, it also hasn't had a propery successful one since its inception either.

Besides, if tribalism in football teams in London was so big you wouldn't have as many Man U supporters as you do down here.

Invest properly in a London club that will compete consistently at the top of the table, playing good RL and the crowds will come back, it's not like we've never had any before. Playing out a wedding venue that is hidden behind a bunch of houses in Ealing isn't the most attractive venue for the general London public.

I disagree even back when London where hugely successful they were still getting small crowds

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2 minutes ago, Themusician_2 said:

I disagree even back when London where hugely successful they were still getting small crowds

Small in comparison to what?

Sorry, when were London hugely successful, the 2 seasons where we finished 2nd and then got to the CC final back in 1997/1999? Other than those seasons London has never been hugely successful. We had a few seasons where we just about got into the play offs and other than that we were with the other bottom clubs.

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On 19/03/2020 at 13:24, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I agree, London just needs success

Success needs big investment 

Melbourne Storm size investment! 

Agreed. If a Melbourne team can average 15 - 20k a game in a market where everything is actively against rugby league, London can work to. Oh and London has twice the population of Melbourne.

Investments is key. Last year in super league London didn't even spend the full salary cap. What a joke! Then we all act surprised and disapointed they get relegated. 

Imagine if the storm played under 30% less than the other nrl sides. They would come last each year and in 5 years time fold.

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20 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Agreed. If a Melbourne team can average 15 - 20k a game in a market where everything is actively against rugby league, London can work to. Oh and London has twice the population of Melbourne.

Investments is key. Last year in super league London didn't even spend the full salary cap. What a joke! Then we all act surprised and disapointed they get relegated. 

Imagine if the storm played under 30% less than the other nrl sides. They would come last each year and in 5 years time fold.

You can't compare Melbourne and London, for the simple reason that you can't compare the NRL and RFL/SL.  RL is big in Australia and being big has helped in succeed in Melbourne, whereas it's a small time regional game in the UK and that's something which will have to change for it to succeed in London.

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40 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You can't compare Melbourne and London, for the simple reason that you can't compare the NRL and RFL/SL.  RL is big in Australia and being big has helped in succeed in Melbourne, whereas it's a small time regional game in the UK and that's something which will have to change for it to succeed in London.

Fair point. But London Broncos lack of any real ambition kills any chance of success for London rugby league.

Step 1 of building rugby league in London is having a successful super league team. 

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20 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Fair point. But London Broncos lack of any real ambition kills any chance of success for London rugby league.

Step 1 of building rugby league in London is having a successful super league team. 

It's not only the Broncos' lack of ambition, it's also English RL's lack of ambition and small time ways.  For London to have a successful super league RL team, RL would first need to have a super league where that team could play but it doesn't.  What it has instead is a tarted-up version of the old regional RFL Championship which has pretended to be a super league since 1996.

If you asked 1000 Melburnians and 1000 Londoners "Is rugby league worthy of our city" or something similar (bypassing transplanted northerners in London and transplanted Sydneysiders in Melbourne) I suspect that you'd get very different answers.  "What's rugby league?" and the like might even be a fairly common answer among the Londoners, assuming that they didn't confuse it with RU.

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16 hours ago, AB90 said:

Agreed. If a Melbourne team can average 15 - 20k a game in a market where everything is actively against rugby league, London can work to. Oh and London has twice the population of Melbourne.

Investments is key. Last year in super league London didn't even spend the full salary cap. What a joke! Then we all act surprised and disapointed they get relegated. 

Imagine if the storm played under 30% less than the other nrl sides. They would come last each year and in 5 years time fold.

Yes it’s simple, all London need is someone with £5m a year to put into the club - I wonder why they’re not more successful. 

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15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

It's not only the Broncos' lack of ambition, it's also English RL's lack of ambition and small time ways.  For London to have a successful super league RL team, RL would first need to have a super league where that team could play but it doesn't.  What it has instead is a tarted-up version of the old regional RFL Championship which has pretended to be a super league since 1996.

If you asked 1000 Melburnians and 1000 Londoners "Is rugby league worthy of our city" or something similar (bypassing transplanted northerners in London and transplanted Sydneysiders in Melbourne) I suspect that you'd get very different answers.  "What's rugby league?" and the like might even be a fairly common answer among the Londoners, assuming that they didn't confuse it with RU.

Broncos lack of ambition - have you heard yourself? 

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On 18/03/2020 at 09:38, Tommygilf said:

To be fair I think a lot of this depends on the coach. Perez has consistently been open minded about Canadians and their prospects but has also been consistent that the coach picks the playing squad. The Rowley recruitment method was clearly to go with players he'd worked with before - perhaps the vision of the squad could be what Perez begins his coaching interviews with.

C'mon Tommy, the 'Dream' spouted by Perez and Noble was to convert the Thousands of ready-made for Rugby League American Athletes who didn't make the grade at their own particular version of Football, this site was awash with video's and reports of the numerous auditions in various locations that took place and the end result was erm let's say rather dissapointing to not put a finer point on it.

Paul Rowley was always a winner on the field of play he never took a backward step, he was the same with a track suit on, and quite frankly I do not know a coach that isn't.

One thing that cannot be denied is that Mr Perez is a good salesman, he paints a good picture, but I am his nemesis a "sceptical buyer", I hope he proves me wrong and his reason for leaving Toronto was his vision of getting 'locals' involved was not bought into by the club.

Time will tell if Mr Perez will do as he says and wants to and include Canadians in his team at Ottawa, but he readily admits and a point I have discussed on here with our Canadian friends is that they do not care (in any of their sports) where the player's hail from, but they want to see a winning team, don't let them try to persuade you otherwise just look at their post content, and for that reason I think that  Mr Perez will default on his intention, especially if NY come into the equation and they are seemingly overtaking Ottawa.

 

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On 18/03/2020 at 10:38, ckn said:

Moderating note:

5 posts removed.

I seriously don't get how some people haven't done themselves a mischief given how angry they get over anyone more than a couple of miles from the M62 playing out sport. Give it a break for a while. Pretty please!

Hi CKN, sorry for the late response. 

On your carefully worded note, may I say this is a discussion site, I did not see the posts that you removed if they were of an insulting nature then I agree with you, but we as individuals have different opinions on this subject and your response clearly says which side of the fence you favour, I as much as the next guy want our sport to grow and grow but I see - my opinion - that this method of 'expansion' in Virgin territories could do our game more harm than good in the short term and that just may lead to a long term loss. I have penned those reason's more than once but there are those who neither have the capacity to discuss my deliberations or just see fit to use the insulting emoji response without comment.

People qoute Newcastle and London as equivalents of the expansion programme (both a couple of miles outside the M62) but they really do have an "Expansion" programme, and one which I can readily identify with. As I stated in a post above Mr Perez can only be judged if his future actions will be commensurate with his reported intentions, I somehow doubt it.

 

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi CKN, sorry for the late response. 

On your carefully worded note, may I say this is a discussion site, I did not see the posts that you removed if they were of an insulting nature then I agree with you, but we as individuals have different opinions on this subject and your response clearly says which side of the fence you favour, I as much as the next guy want our sport to grow and grow but I see - my opinion - that this method of 'expansion' in Virgin territories could do our game more harm than good in the short term and that just may lead to a long term loss. I have penned those reason's more than once but there are those who neither have the capacity to discuss my deliberations or just see fit to use the insulting emoji response without comment.

People qoute Newcastle and London as equivalents of the expansion programme (both a couple of miles outside the M62) but they really do have an "Expansion" programme, and one which I can readily identify with. As I stated in a post above Mr Perez can only be judged if his future actions will be commensurate with his reported intentions, I somehow doubt it.

 

They were insulting, and of the variant of "it's a northern sport for northern folk and the rest can sod off and leave us to OUR game".

Rational critique is always welcome.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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On 19/03/2020 at 13:33, Big Picture said:

More than likely the number is a lot higher than 10 thousand, but how to get and then keep their interest?  39 years of experience suggests that having a London team(s) in a league dominated by teams from small northern towns won't do that.

So if we get rid of the small Northern Towns who get people through the gates, accepted by the communities, and actually produce player's and substitute them for big city teams in the vast number of places you have suggested before everything is going to be just fine, is it?

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13 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

These small northern towns dont get people.through the gates either. 

Not in the numbers that I would wish for granted, but the game is there in the communitues and subsequently these small northern towns produce players which the game as a whole benefits from even including Leeds, have a look back over say just 20 years at the number of kids who have come through your academy system who hail from these small northern towns and not from within the confines of your city boundaries, now add in Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Hull et al

If the pro game is taken away from these towns, they will lose the focal point of Rugby League, the community game will suffer and subsequently the professional player converyor belt will not be ridden by enough player's.

You are far from thick Scotchy, you may be glassy eyed of how you see this 'expansion' programme unfolding, but thick you ain't, I only hope for the future sake of the game, that Toronto, Ottawa, New York and any other big city place that has been mentioned as necessary to the future well being of our sport starts producing player's pretty soon, for when the little northern town teams are no more, the game will really suffer.

NB I know it is not for this thread, but if the present situation deems that some of the clubs from the traditional areas fold, that will be the start of the decline of the game in those towns, it won't happen overnight but the slope will definatley begin to be tilted in wrong direction.

 

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

C'mon Tommy, the 'Dream' spouted by Perez and Noble was to convert the Thousands of ready-made for Rugby League American Athletes who didn't make the grade at their own particular version of Football, this site was awash with video's and reports of the numerous auditions in various locations that took place and the end result was erm let's say rather dissapointing to not put a finer point on it.

Paul Rowley was always a winner on the field of play he never took a backward step, he was the same with a track suit on, and quite frankly I do not know a coach that isn't.

One thing that cannot be denied is that Mr Perez is a good salesman, he paints a good picture, but I am his nemesis a "sceptical buyer", I hope he proves me wrong and his reason for leaving Toronto was his vision of getting 'locals' involved was not bought into by the club.

Time will tell if Mr Perez will do as he says and wants to and include Canadians in his team at Ottawa, but he readily admits and a point I have discussed on here with our Canadian friends is that they do not care (in any of their sports) where the player's hail from, but they want to see a winning team, don't let them try to persuade you otherwise just look at their post content, and for that reason I think that  Mr Perez will default on his intention, especially if NY come into the equation and they are seemingly overtaking Ottawa.

 

There is also the problems the Wolfpack have highlighted in regards to signing North Americans regarding Visas and Quotas that you miss out Harry. Regardless, I think Perez's "organic growth" here will mean simply that there isn't a single huge backer so the club management will have to be a bit more ingenious. Competing with NY won't be a major priority imo, off the field they're fighting the same fight and on the pitch they'll have at least a years headstart.

What we have seen about Canadians on here and elsewhere about not needing Canucks in their teams is of course true. But it also critically misses out the comment that almost always comes after that. Toronto Raptors are the only Basketball team in Canada and have only been around since 1995 - Canada has gone from having 2 pro players to being the second largest contributor of players to the NBA in that short space of time. Canadians might not be bothered about Canadians playing in their team, but they seem to take up sports with professional opportunities fairly seriously and with a population of nearly 40 million are reasonably successful at it. Point being its not all on the Canadian club to generate all this.

That said its taken super league clubs a hell of a long time to start taking French players off Catalans. Our game is parochial to the core at times.

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36 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

London has produced plenty of players

Those small northern towns produce players regardless of the professional clubs. 

Leigh have played 23 of 25 SL seasons outside of SL. The pro game couldnt be taken away from them. They never had it. I dont think they have spent 2 consecutive years in the top flight in my life time. Yet they still play RL in Leigh. The correlation you are trying to create doesnt exist. 

Toronto have, already, after 4 years of existence, spent half as much time in SL as Leigh has. 

Ontario and the growth coming from there is a wonderful thing and should be welcomed. Your bitterness and antipathy towards them stems from trying to protect something that never existed.

As per usual you completely turn the subject, what on earth has the amount of time that Leigh has been in SL got to do with the production of player's, I asked you with regards your own club for the number's of those who have gone through your academy who come from the towns of small clubs, I asked that to substansiate my discussion, but you choose to avoid the question because it does not suit your argument.

What growth coming from Ontario? At least answer that it is your statement.

PS not surprised who gave you a like, the man with no discussion.

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22 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There is also the problems the Wolfpack have highlighted in regards to signing North Americans regarding Visas and Quotas that you miss out Harry. Regardless, I think Perez's "organic growth" here will mean simply that there isn't a single huge backer so the club management will have to be a bit more ingenious. Competing with NY won't be a major priority imo, off the field they're fighting the same fight and on the pitch they'll have at least a years headstart.

What we have seen about Canadians on here and elsewhere about not needing Canucks in their teams is of course true. But it also critically misses out the comment that almost always comes after that. Toronto Raptors are the only Basketball team in Canada and have only been around since 1995 - Canada has gone from having 2 pro players to being the second largest contributor of players to the NBA in that short space of time. Canadians might not be bothered about Canadians playing in their team, but they seem to take up sports with professional opportunities fairly seriously and with a population of nearly 40 million are reasonably successful at it. Point being its not all on the Canadian club to generate all this.

That said its taken super league clubs a hell of a long time to start taking French players off Catalans. Our game is parochial to the core at times.

For your first paragraph, it has you elude to is all about money, your guessing that Ottawa will not be as flushed as Toronto so will have to cut their cloth to suit, I can see your thinking reasoning there, hence that could be Perez's change of direction, and as for NY let's wait and see who their backers are and how much they are prepared to spend.

Sorry you have got me with the Raptors comparrison I simply don't know, but I should imagine that the Canadian public could readily identify with the game of Basketball than Rugby League and would have had a good number of participants already playing the game at various levels, I would love for Toronto and the others to be the second largest contributor to the professional ranks (not only at the top level) of the Rugby League world in 20 years- Toronto are already in year 5 of their existance even if it is only 4 as a competitive team, but the sceptic in me says it won't happen.

Last sentance, apart from a few French lads coming over both pre and since the formation of Catalan Dragons, has France produced enough player's of the required quality? I should imagine that any club boss would not have been slow in signing any French lads if they had been good enough, save for being a Francophile.

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12 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Because your assertion is that replacing clubs like leigh etc with clubs like Toronto or Ottawa (or london) in the top tier risks stopping the production line from 'small northern towns'.

The truth is, you are right, the position of Leigh centurions in the RL pyramid is irrelevant to player production. Kids in those areas dont play because of the sides in those small northern towns competing at the top level. Largely those kids will have never seen those clubs competing at the top level. It's been 30, 40, 50 years since those clubs were winning. Kids will always play in those areas regardless of where the semi pro club from that town is.

Also your question goes against your argument. Even If 100% of leeds academy products came from the small town environs it would prove that a club in a big city perfectly does the job of being the pathway from the towns that cant support a club playing at that level

So Leigh like a good few other towns in the RL Pyramid like Dewsbury for one is irrelevant to player production, no point in mentioning anywhere else even your narrow thinking should be able to realise how many top line player's these two towns have produced because those towns are Rugby League towns because simply of the pro club that is in their midst, you are totally deluded if you consider it to be for any other reason, and exactly why clubs like Leeds get the opportunity to sign players for their academy's.

I have asked you before but you have never answered, do you actually speak from experience when you quote what is happening in the community game, please share, or is it again a figment of your imagination.

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46 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So Leigh like a good few other towns in the RL Pyramid like Dewsbury for one is irrelevant to player production, no point in mentioning anywhere else even your narrow thinking should be able to realise how many top line player's these two towns have produced because those towns are Rugby League towns because simply of the pro club that is in their midst, you are totally deluded if you consider it to be for any other reason, and exactly why clubs like Leeds get the opportunity to sign players for their academy's.

I have asked you before but you have never answered, do you actually speak from experience when you quote what is happening in the community game, please share, or is it again a figment of your imagination.

Sorry Harry, I think there’s little correlation between semi pro clubs in most these areas and player production. West Cumbria is a prime example of until very recently, a huge discord between the semi pro clubs and the amateur game. And they’re not alone - the likes of Hunslet, Oldham, Doncaster, Swinton, Halifax all in the same boat.

Its actually been one of my gripes about these semi pro clubs, that they’re getting central distribution funding but what are they putting back into the game? 

The North American sides you take issue with, aren’t even taking central distribution funding so really your argument doesn’t have any legs

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50 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

For your first paragraph, it has you elude to is all about money, your guessing that Ottawa will not be as flushed as Toronto so will have to cut their cloth to suit, I can see your thinking reasoning there, hence that could be Perez's change of direction, and as for NY let's wait and see who their backers are and how much they are prepared to spend.

Sorry you have got me with the Raptors comparrison I simply don't know, but I should imagine that the Canadian public could readily identify with the game of Basketball than Rugby League and would have had a good number of participants already playing the game at various levels, I would love for Toronto and the others to be the second largest contributor to the professional ranks (not only at the top level) of the Rugby League world in 20 years- Toronto are already in year 5 of their existance even if it is only 4 as a competitive team, but the sceptic in me says it won't happen.

Last sentance, apart from a few French lads coming over both pre and since the formation of Catalan Dragons, has France produced enough player's of the required quality? I should imagine that any club boss would not have been slow in signing any French lads if they had been good enough, save for being a Francophile.

I can only speak from what I've read and heard from both family and people on podcasts/social media etc. regarding Basketball. From what I gather there was a concerted effort by the league to get the game publicised and played in Schools with courts being built quite widely. Now perhaps Super League, the RFL and Canada RL wouldn't be able to afford to do that on an all Canada basis, but if we're serious about this then clearly Ontario will be the epicenter of RL in the New World so to speak and support should be proffered where possible. I appreciate major growth will take time but it certainly will never happen within my lifetime without a professional side there.

Honestly Harry I think our clubs often struggle to look beyond their own noses when it comes to recruitment and scouting. We are a bit in the dark ages in that respect and have arguably got worse and retracted. Even in the 1950s and 60s 1st and 2nd division football clubs had scouts operating across Britain and Ireland and RL teams used to go all over in search of players; yet RL clubs these days seem to think very narrowly. From what I've watched of RL recruitment and player agents its all rather parochial stuff and its a miracle those few French lads have ever made it over. 

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