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Man of Kent

‘The next best thing to football in the North of England’

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I live in Liverpool and have done for many years

the locals love their sport but football is the be all and all here. There are a few local rugby teams but union and league a very much minority sports. That has always been the case going back to the days of Liverpool City, Huyton and in Union Waterloo.  Liverpool St Helens RU was a merger with the Liverpool club moving out   Some of the schools play rugby but usually Union

You might get odd fans to odd games but not week in week out.  Football rules here and no marketing budget in the world changes that

saints have tried playing at Anfield.  Crowds were about the same so no extra revenue and the extra costs of renting the stadium  

marketing budgets will be heavily squeezed post covid  so return on any spend will need to be good   Gambling on trying to convert die hard football fans will probably not be high on the agenda 

 

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24 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

It isnt randomly focussing limited resources on liverpool is it. 

Saints is within the Liverpool conurbation. It's the major population centre near St Helen's. 

But here we are again. RL fans making arguments that certain people arent going to watch RL and we shouldn't bother trying to get them to do so.

It’s within the Merseyside conurbation, St Helens is no more in Liverpool than Liverpool is in St Helens; they are distinct towns with completely different accents and cultures. Whereas people from Stockport or Salford might (and do) tell people they’re from Manchester for ease, I doubt many people from St Helens would ever say they’re from Liverpool. 

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3 minutes ago, headtackle said:

I live in Liverpool and have done for many years

the locals love their sport but football is the be all and all here. There are a few local rugby teams but union and league a very much minority sports. That has always been the case going back to the days of Liverpool City, Huyton and in Union Waterloo.  Liverpool St Helens RU was a merger with the Liverpool club moving out   Some of the schools play rugby but usually Union

You might get odd fans to odd games but not week in week out.  Football rules here and no marketing budget in the world changes that

saints have tried playing at Anfield.  Crowds were about the same so no extra revenue and the extra costs of renting the stadium  

marketing budgets will be heavily squeezed post covid  so return on any spend will need to be good   Gambling on trying to convert die hard football fans will probably not be high on the agenda 

 

I agree, but that said I would hope the certain clubs would push for a single "Big game" with a bumper crowd each season - if loop fixtures are to remain I'd look at these as an opportunity. Saints v Wire (loop) at Anfield, Leeds v Cas (loop) at Elland Road - though it could be for any West Yorkshire team really, they don't even have to be local rivalries going forward. 

Perhaps it could help drive interest in a broader area or at least increase the profile of clubs to a wider conscience.

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5 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Are we still talking about Saints and Liverpool?! 

 

Endlessly, Scotchy still hasn’t explained how he’s going to get Saints to break the Scouse market though. 

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7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Ahh well if they have different accents its obviously an insurmountable hurdle isnt it. 

 

You’re cherry picking what I said to support your uninformed argument. For someone (presumably) from the North of England you have a surprisingly poor insight into Northern culture as well. 

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11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Or maybe, the north of england isnt one homogeneous monolithic culture where everybody is the same. 

Maybe suggesting there is 1 thing such as 'northern culture' is a pretty silly thing. 

I’m saying the exact opposite, and have been for the last two days. 

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15 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Except in your last post, and in every other post where you have argued saints cant get fans from liverpool

I am arguing that, because I’m saying the culture in northern towns varies massively even when they’re very close together. 

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Which is a preposterous notion  that the culture in an area can vary in a small geographical areas but also be monolithic in those areas.

The culture of liverpool isnt one thing, different and contrasting with the culture of its environs. 

Each of those.areas contain multiple cultures distinct and different from each other. And each of those cultures contain individuals, distinct and different from each other. 

Liverpool isnt 1 thing. It's half a million different people each with their own likes, dislikes, fears, motivations everything.

They arent intrinsically any more or less likely to like RL than anyone else. There is no natural predisposition to RL in anyone. 

Not a natural disposition, but one created by a culture.

Your idea is like saying Americans aren’t more likely to like NFL than Australians are. 

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3 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

 

The culture of liverpool isnt one thing, different and contrasting with the culture of its environs. 

Yes it is. Though obviously you know better than everyone on this forum who has or does live there. 

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

No it isnt. My idea is like saying that there is nothing intrinsic to Americans that makes them more likely to like NFL than anyone else.

That they do isnt down to something within them but the environment. They exist in one where they are exposed to the NRL and have access to it.

There hasnt been some change in British people over the last 20 years or so. They are still the same. They are however more.exposed to the NFL and it is more accessible. And what followed was a massive growth in the NFL in the UK.

The environment - at last you’ve got it ?

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19 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Why aren’t we focusing on Newcastle as the expansion area as we haven’t anything like the resources to crack Liverpool or even Manchester simultaneously?

 

 

 

Someone wanted to do Manchester, had a plan and had started it, but the RFL rejected them. 

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27 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The environment is the thing we can change. 

I even helpfully provided you with an example, whilst you have been stamping your feet and telling us we can't attract people from liverpool. 

I give up, have it your way, Saints should move to Anfield and will be playing in front of 50,000 crowds next season as the locals flock to watch them. 

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

 

It presupposes that there is some reason why people in liverpool cant or wont ever be RL fans.

No, that's not what I said or what I'm arguing. I was talking specifically with regards to people in Liverpool becoming fans of St Helens.

I'm not saying that given the right circumstances people from Liverpool couldn't or wouldn't become more interested in rugby league and maybe one day support a Liverpool RL team, but that's not the same as them wanting to support St Helens.

I think it's fair to conclude that very few Liverpudlians want to identify with and support a team from St Helens and calling itself St Helens, given that they've had plenty of time in which to do that already.

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3 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I disagree, what we can conclude is that they havent wanted to support that team in the circumstances we created.

Knowsley Road was not a particularly nice place to visit. It was not an attractive stadium. 

The presentation of the game as whole, has not been great for at least a decade and before then too. 

Saints have not done huge amounts of outreach and advertising in liverpool. (Clubs do very little anywhere generally. I live in leeds and work in the city centre, and outside of a vinyl poster strapped to some railings on my way home you wouldnt know the Rhinos existed. Work used to take me around west and east yorkshire, now london and greater manchester. There is nearly no wider presence anywhere for RL clubs)

The offering for the people of liverpool for the past few decades has been to travel to St Helens to sit in a poor facility, to watch a poorly presented sport, and generally you are going to have to find out for yourself what it is and when it is happening. 

Im using saints as an example here but these issues are game wide. It isnt easy to find, it isnt accessible, it doesnt hold much of a profile, it does very little to actually go out and get people, and sadly, at times, the product and the surroundings it has delivered in hasnt been good. 

These are far more likely reasons for people from liverpool choosing not to go to St Helens to watch RL. We have addressed some of them but are miles away on a lot of them and are having to undo a lot of damage that years of neglect had on the sport. 

Create the right environment, engage people, make it accessible, make it visible, make it an actually comfortable and nice place to be, give them a good experience and you could call the team anything. 

 

Nice in theory but if you know how to do this you should honestly offer your help to Saints, I’m sure they’d be grateful as they haven’t worked it out in 100 years. 

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4 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Why aren’t we focusing on Newcastle as the expansion area as we haven’t anything like the resources to crack Liverpool or even Manchester simultaneously?

 

 

 

The problem is this word "we". 

"We" is used to talk about "the game" which invariably means people look to the RFL. But the RFL is not responsible for the clubs who are (or should be) marketing themselves to audiences in Manchester, Liverpool or Newcastle. 

If Michael Carter thinks St Helens should attracting people from Liverpool, it's up to St Helens to do that. 

By the same token, it's perfectly fair to ask what he is doing at his club to attract audiences in Barnsley or Rotherham. 

But by saying "we" need to do x, y and z, it gives him a free pass to do what I suspect he is doing to market his club to new fans, which is the square root of sweet FA. 

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13 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

All of which are tourist related and nothing to do with the natives, to which I present three words. Scouse not English. If it’s “wool”, they don’t want to know. 

Tourist related - What are you talking about?

The maritime industry around Liverpool employs over 50,000 people - What's that got to do with tourists?  They're port workers, logistic people,  seafarers, ship builders, office staff doing their jobs and going home to their family's. 

What are the universities to do with tourists? They are major employers with thousands of people working and living in and around Liverpool. 

I've no idea what the old Chinatown has to do with tourists - this was set up by people who came to live and work in Liverpool from China and many of their descendants still live here now.

and Liverpool was awarded the European Capital of Culture as a result of the work done by lots of organisations based in Liverpool by people who live and work in the area again nothing to do with tourists.

 

Your three little words, Scouse not English, they're often used to proclaim a difference from the rest of England because all of the outside influences have created a slightly different culture.  That's not inward looking, that's outward looking as there's far more to this world than just England.

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

I disagree, what we can conclude is that they havent wanted to support that team in the circumstances we created.

Knowsley Road was not a particularly nice place to visit. It was not an attractive stadium. 

The presentation of the game as whole, has not been great for at least a decade and before then too. 

Saints have not done huge amounts of outreach and advertising in liverpool. (Clubs do very little anywhere generally. I live in leeds and work in the city centre, and outside of a vinyl poster strapped to some railings on my way home you wouldnt know the Rhinos existed. Work used to take me around west and east yorkshire, now london and greater manchester. There is nearly no wider presence anywhere for RL clubs)

The offering for the people of liverpool for the past few decades has been to travel to St Helens to sit in a poor facility, to watch a poorly presented sport, and generally you are going to have to find out for yourself what it is and when it is happening. 

Im using saints as an example here but these issues are game wide. It isnt easy to find, it isnt accessible, it doesnt hold much of a profile, it does very little to actually go out and get people, and sadly, at times, the product and the surroundings it has delivered in hasnt been good. 

These are far more likely reasons for people from liverpool choosing not to go to St Helens to watch RL. We have addressed some of them but are miles away on a lot of them and are having to undo a lot of damage that years of neglect had on the sport. 

Create the right environment, engage people, make it accessible, make it visible, make it an actually comfortable and nice place to be, give them a good experience and you could call the team anything. 

 

How does Huyton sound!

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2 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The problem is this word "we". 

"We" is used to talk about "the game" which invariably means people look to the RFL. But the RFL is not responsible for the clubs who are (or should be) marketing themselves to audiences in Manchester, Liverpool or Newcastle. 

If Michael Carter thinks St Helens should attracting people from Liverpool, it's up to St Helens to do that. 

By the same token, it's perfectly fair to ask what he is doing at his club to attract audiences in Barnsley or Rotherham. 

But by saying "we" need to do x, y and z, it gives him a free pass to do what I suspect he is doing to market his club to new fans, which is the square root of sweet FA. 

I wasn’t using ‘we’ in that context nor referring to the RFL doing anything at all in its present guise.

I don’t believe the clubs acting individually will achieve anything.

Only a collective strategy stands a chance of moving the game forward.

This is the great lesson of successful sports leagues.

Edited by Gerrumonside ref

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1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

Ive seen how much RL clubs spend on attraction. They couldnt afford me.

So you’re a mercenary who wouldn’t do it for the good of the game then. Good to know. 

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9 hours ago, themainbrace said:

Your three little words, Scouse not English, they're often used to proclaim a difference from the rest of England because all of the outside influences have created a slightly different culture.  That's not inward looking, that's outward looking as there's far more to this world than just England.

If it’s ‘outward looking’, then by design it is looking past that game played with an odd shaped ball by those little northern Brexit-supporting, Tory-voting towns that said Scousers are trying to differentiate from. 

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9 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I wasn’t using ‘we’ in that context nor referring to the RFL doing anything at all in its present guise.

I don’t believe the clubs acting individually will achieve anything.

Only a collective strategy stands a chance of moving the game forward.

This is the great lesson of successful sports leagues.

The "we" remark was more a general observation more than anyone specific. There is a lot of "we need to do" rather than "my club needs to do" whenever this issue comes up.

I agree that a collective strategy is better overall but, as @scotchy1 points out, this isn't going to happen in a structure where the game, by design, is run for the benefit of clubs and club owners. 

The reason we have a team in Canada at all is because a bloke with some money approached the RFL and asked to be allowed to compete. By the same token, the reason we don't have a team in Liverpool, Birmingham or Milton Keynes is because that same thing didn't happen. There's no strategy behind it and there never can be, because investors will always want to invest on their terms. 

Similarly, forums like this show just how politically toxic a centralised expansion strategy is. Any mention of that sort of approach is seen as "wasting money", "ignoring the heartlands", "favouring expansion clubs" and "something something away fans / travel costs / Cumbria (delete as appropriate)". It is the very same thinking that gives people a pass to write-off events such as Magic Weekend because we don't have clubs in Edinburgh or Cardiff - even though "expansion" was never the motiviation for Magic Weekend in the first place. 

I disagree that clubs acting individually won't achieve anything. The clubs are the main point of sale for this sport and they are the ones that actually are responsible for most of the game's marketing. They are the entity that control the quality of the product (through the players they recruit), they control the pricing, they control the matchday experience, they largely control the time and place that they play their games and they control their own promotion and advertising. They're the biggest influencer in arguably all of the 'four Ps'. 

The very model that Michael Carter describes there is something that the clubs can and should be delivering and it is very much their remit to do it, not the RFL's or SLE's. There is nothing stopping St Helens promoting themselves in Liverpool, holding games in Liverpool, or doing press events in Liverpool. St Helens are the primary point of consumption for the sport in that part of the country and it is very much within their reach. Why should the RFL / SLE be involved with that, when the main benefit would be cash in the St Helens tills? Should the governing body then throw money at Harrogate, to the benefit of Leeds or Preston for the benefit of Wigan? Or should it be on the clubs to tap into those markets?

If all 12 Super League clubs were that little bit more proactive, creative and ambitious, then we raise the profile of those 12 clubs, we raise the revenue of those 12 clubs and we, in turn, raise the profile and the revenue coming into the sport. 

But as has already been observed, Carter doesn't want that. If the other 11 clubs in SL, did achieve that, he'd have to actually put the work in to do it too. That frightens him and threatens his club's existence. The man has absolutely zero ambition except to see this game run as if it is the sporting equivalent of Poundland. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays
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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Clubs, and not just SL, many championship clubs are even worse as they actively want to get out of the championship, act in self interest and not in the interest of growing the sport.

What are SL doing in terms of growing the sport other than “shut that door”

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Everybody works in their own best interests , all the time , everybody 

Oh , and Liverpool people aren't interested in any sport other than football , anybody who has spent any amount of time with them knows that as a fact 

Edited by GUBRATS
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