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marklaspalmas

Championship/L1 restart numbers

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24 minutes ago, Griff said:

I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if 16 teams signed up.

So would I hence I just floated the idea. After all, say London Skolars or WWR had to play Barrow and Newcastle away then say Sheffield at home, would it be worth their while even if guaranteed £13000 ? Financially perhaps but not in other respects.

Probably end up with 8 or 9 clubs entering.


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11 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

 

Ok, I get it now, thanks.

I think it's pretty clear there will not be any automatic promotion from this tournament - the RFL have said so, haven't they? 

As for making a case for filling the empty spot if that's what transpires, we must just hope the RFL/SL are crystal clear with the criteria for selecting the 12th team. They would be very unwise to link it in any way to this exceptional tournament in my view. 

Everything is pretty fluid at the moment, hence unconfirmed venues for any games more than a month away, provisional bookings for finals etc.

At this moment in time there are 12 teams in SL 2021 (we haven't been told otherwise). The SL and RFL decision on TWP may alter that and we would then need a replacement club number 12. Two options exist to find one, a potentially contentious bidding process or promotion earned on the field. While not ideal (what about this year has been ideal?) changing the decision on awarding promotion via that tournament is certainly possible. They may have to add a caveat that the best performing Championship club would be promoted should a League 1 club win it.

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1 minute ago, wiganermike said:

Everything is pretty fluid at the moment, hence unconfirmed venues for any games more than a month away, provisional bookings for finals etc.

At this moment in time there are 12 teams in SL 2021 (we haven't been told otherwise). The SL and RFL decision on TWP may alter that and we would then need a replacement club number 12. Two options exist to find one, a potentially contentious bidding process or promotion earned on the field. While not ideal (what about this year has been ideal?) changing the decision on awarding promotion via that tournament is certainly possible. They may have to add a caveat that the best performing Championship club would be promoted should a League 1 club win it.

Or they may run the comp with 11 clubs. More brass each.

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Just now, marklaspalmas said:

Or they may run the comp with 11 clubs. More brass each.

RFL won't want to sacrifice the MW as that makes money (and they have committed to holding it in Newcastle already) and the SL clubs won't want to give up a further home game when they will have already lost one against the missing 12th club. MW can't run as an extra round as an odd number of teams can't play an odd number of rounds so clubs would have to sacrifice a home game to have it. SL won't run with an odd number of clubs for those reasons so in the event of TWP not being there we will need a replacement.

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8 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

RFL won't want to sacrifice the MW as that makes money (and they have committed to holding it in Newcastle already) and the SL clubs won't want to give up a further home game when they will have already lost one against the missing 12th club. MW can't run as an extra round as an odd number of teams can't play an odd number of rounds so clubs would have to sacrifice a home game to have it. SL won't run with an odd number of clubs for those reasons so in the event of TWP not being there we will need a replacement.

There's logic in what you say, but that won't enter into SL thinking.

FWIW 12 clubs must be the answer. I still assume today that means TWP back.

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45 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

 

Ok, I get it now, thanks.

I think it's pretty clear there will not be any automatic promotion from this tournament - the RFL have said so, haven't they? 

As for making a case for filling the empty spot if that's what transpires, we must just hope the RFL/SL are crystal clear with the criteria for selecting the 12th team. They would be very unwise to link it in any way to this exceptional tournament in my view. 

No there won't be automatic promotion form this comp as such, but clubs will be looking to strengthen their case for inclusion in SL and winning it won't do their chances any harm.

Furthermore there is the ability to demonstrate their financial well being by being keen to take part and win it. It sends a message that they were able to afford to take players off furlough and be financially sound enough to support themselves through this competition. That will be a big plus for any potential SL aspirations.

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

The aim is to fill October and November, which is nine weekends.

Then we start 2021 season 1st weekend of Feb. Teams entering have to think of long term effects when on slimline squads vs potential return. I suppose the benefit of having no reserves next season should free up some more players for loan/Dual Reg for 2021

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33 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

The SL and RFL decision on TWP may alter that and we would then need a replacement club number 12.

I'd be amazed if that twelfth place was won exclusively on the field of play.

There's been no credible competition in 2020 and 2019 is far too distant.


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8 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

RFL won't want to sacrifice the MW as that makes money (and they have committed to holding it in Newcastle already) and the SL clubs won't want to give up a further home game when they will have already lost one against the missing 12th club. MW can't run as an extra round as an odd number of teams can't play an odd number of rounds so clubs would have to sacrifice a home game to have it. SL won't run with an odd number of clubs for those reasons so in the event of TWP not being there we will need a replacement.

You can run MW with 11 - let Catalans sit out, and open Saturday with a Thunder game,  or a Championship game like they did in 2018. As for the clubs sacrificing a home game (actually it would be half of them), remember they can pocket £1.6m again if they keep it at 11, but would have to distribute if, say, Leigh entered. They might also like the bye week given such a condensed program in 2020/2021. 

I'm sure other scenarios are possible too, just I don't think the ones you suggested are dealbreakers.

All that said, when things blew up on Monday I couldn't see how Toronto could stay in SL next year. But now a few days have elapsed, it does look like the clubs are at least exploring that scenario. ie. What sanctions should be imposed and what guarantees are needed. I wouldn't rule it out completely now. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Derwent said:

No there won't be automatic promotion form this comp as such, but clubs will be looking to strengthen their case for inclusion in SL and winning it won't do their chances any harm.

Furthermore there is the ability to demonstrate their financial well being by being keen to take part and win it. It sends a message that they were able to afford to take players off furlough and be financially sound enough to support themselves through this competition. That will be a big plus for any potential SL aspirations.

Good point

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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Fans will be allowed in , as long as they wear face coverings 

The wearing of face coverings will be the default position for everything in 2 months time 

That's just what your wife told you Gubby.      😉

 


Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Every day that goes by without a concrete decision on Toronto reduces the chance of this or any other lower tier competition happening 

We are already seeing players from Championship clubs being picked up on short term contracts by SL clubs who realise the highly compacted schedule they are looking at will test their squad numbers 

So we all sit and wait for Mr Argyle to decide what he is going to do ?

Really? I must have missed this. How many Championship players have been signed by SL clubs for the remainder of the season?


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30 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

You can run MW with 11 - let Catalans sit out, and open Saturday with a Thunder game,  or a Championship game like they did in 2018. As for the clubs sacrificing a home game (actually it would be half of them), remember they can pocket £1.6m again if they keep it at 11, but would have to distribute if, say, Leigh entered. They might also like the bye week given such a condensed program in 2020/2021. 

I'm sure other scenarios are possible too, just I don't think the ones you suggested are dealbreakers.

All that said, when things blew up on Monday I couldn't see how Toronto could stay in SL next year. But now a few days have elapsed, it does look like the clubs are at least exploring that scenario. ie. What sanctions should be imposed and what guarantees are needed. I wouldn't rule it out completely now. 

 

In your Catalans sit it out scenario you either deny them the chance of gaining two points or you give them points for doing nothing. Neither of those is fair and I can't see that being an option.

The clubs voted to bring in loop fixtures twice in SL's history to give them a number of home games they deemed financially necessary. They voted to ditch the 3-8s because the fixtures post split weren't easy to sell so were losing them money. A week's rest a couple of times in the year is good but it won't pay the bills like a home fixture would. Experience says they will act to preserve the number of home fixtures they have already, as that is what they have always done and will likely force concessions on the club chosen to replace TWP (if it comes to that) in return for extraordinarily elevating them (and they will go along with it rather than turn down the opportunity) so as to preserve for 2021 at least the present 11 clubs' own slice of the pie.

This final bit is a massive leap of logic on my part but given Derek Beaumont's apparent silence on the matter compared to Fev's reaction it wouldn't surprise me if he has been made aware of a possible opportunity in the offing.

Edited by wiganermike
spelling mistakes

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2 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

Like I say, no information from The RFL 

I realise its a bit of a chicken and egg but clubs need to have some idea of how many matches they might end up playing, for example.

I understand that there is a virtual meeting between the Championship clubs and the RFL taking place today to discuss this very matter.

They should, of course, have informed this forum first.

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1 hour ago, Derwent said:

Because if clubs see this competition as a potential route to SL then they'll be more likely to enter it than if it is just a filler.

It isn't though. It has been clearly stated by the RFL and SL that there will be no P&R this season, and this was after Toronto withdrew.


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1 hour ago, marklaspalmas said:

Or they may run the comp with 11 clubs. More brass each.

Correct. And a number of SL clubs have said just that. In fact one has suggested that there should be no promotion in 2021 but one demotion, followed by a reorganisation into two leagues of 10 and a meaningful third tier. This won't happen, of course, but goes to show that there are many ideas floating about.


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39 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

You can run MW with 11 - let Catalans sit out, and open Saturday with a Thunder game,  or a Championship game like they did in 2018. As for the clubs sacrificing a home game (actually it would be half of them), remember they can pocket £1.6m again if they keep it at 11, but would have to distribute if, say, Leigh entered. They might also like the bye week given such a condensed program in 2020/2021. 

I'm sure other scenarios are possible too, just I don't think the ones you suggested are dealbreakers.

All that said, when things blew up on Monday I couldn't see how Toronto could stay in SL next year. But now a few days have elapsed, it does look like the clubs are at least exploring that scenario. ie. What sanctions should be imposed and what guarantees are needed. I wouldn't rule it out completely now. 

 

Run that one past us again Toby.

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4 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

It isn't though. It has been clearly stated by the RFL and SL that there will be no P&R this season, and this was after Toronto withdrew.

Yes , they withdrew from the 2020 season 

But what are they doing in 2021 ? 

Let's say SL/RFL stick Toronto with a 12 point deduction next year ? , Do you think David Argyle will take a guaranteed relegation next year and finance them through it ?

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3 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

It isn't though. It has been clearly stated by the RFL and SL that there will be no P&R this season, and this was after Toronto withdrew.

As far as I’m aware they have only said there’ll be no relegation and no “automatic” promotion. If they expel Toronto you’d think they’d want to even up the numbers and bring another club in. By saying there’s no “automatic” promotion  that doesn’t mean a club won’t go up and actually leaves them in a position of being able to choose who that club is if necessary.


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Just now, GUBRATS said:

Yes , they withdrew from the 2020 season 

But what are they doing in 2021 ? 

Let's say SL/RFL stick Toronto with a 12 point deduction next year ? , Do you think David Argyle will take a guaranteed relegation next year and finance them through it ?

That doesn't make a case for promoting another team though, does it?


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1 minute ago, Blind side johnny said:

That doesn't make a case for promoting another team though, does it?

I'd suggest they will be looking for cast iron contracted guarantees from Mr Argyle as regards his intentions 

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9 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Correct. And a number of SL clubs have said just that. In fact one has suggested that there should be no promotion in 2021 but one demotion, followed by a reorganisation into two leagues of 10 and a meaningful third tier. This won't happen, of course, but goes to show that there are many ideas floating about.

Which clubs and where are the articles/statements? Not doubting you, I just wouldn't mind having a read of what has been said myself.

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6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I'd suggest they will be looking for cast iron contracted guarantees from Mr Argyle as regards his intentions 

Possibly but this doesn't make promotion of another club an alternative.

Where one other scenario does exist, and I'm surprised that you missed this, is if Toronto were demoted to the Championship, which Argyle has said he could contend with. That could create either an unbalanced Championship or the temptation to promote an unprepared club into SL.

Edited by Blind side johnny

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1 minute ago, wiganermike said:

Which clubs and where are the articles/statements? Not doubting you, I just wouldn't mind having a read of what has been said myself.

Oh nothing of these talks has been documented Mike, but nor is it my fevered imagination. A number of asides from club chairmen over the last few months have made it perfectly clear that they couldn't countenance any reduction in their Sky money for 2021, over and above the reductions that have already been agreed.


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21 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Possibly but this doesn't make promotion of another club an alternative.

Where one other scenario does exist, and I'm surprised that you missed this, is if Toronto were demoted to the Championship, which Argyle has said he could contend with. That could create either an unbalanced Championship or the temptation to promote an unprepared club into SL.

Indeed , in fact I'd suggest Mr Argyle would accept demotion this year rather than a crippling points deduction next year 

Bottom line is as I suggested earlier , just how far will the SL clubs bend ?

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