Ryan Sutton

[Jim Prendle]

5 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

The improvement of Ryan Sutton since he joined Canberra is further  evidence of how British players who sign for NRL clubs, especially the better NRL clubs, can improve their playing skills and performance to a level not possible if they choose  to stay in England. Who can doubt that Josh Hodgson and John Bateman have improved to become international stars since they came under the coaching of RIcky Stuart. The same point should apply to French players.

I hope that a way can be found for Tommy Makinson, Alex Wamsley, Liam Watts, Tom Johnstone,  Dominic Manfredi, Mark Percival, Jonny Lomax, Tony Gigot, Theo Fages, Fouad Yaha, Benjamin Garcia, and 21 year old Arthur Mourgue to find serious playing contracts in the NRL

Why would you want to lose all those players to the NRL?

[AB90]

50 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Again though, if playing in the NRL has improved Bateman, why was he so good from the moment he started.

After 6 rounds of 2019, Bateman was joint 3rd on the Dally M table.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/04/22/round-6-nrl-snapshot-plus-dally-m-votes-and-leaderboard/

This concept of him playing in the NRL improving him as a player should be evidenced by him improving the longer he played over there.  In reality, he was outstanding from his first game which logic dictates means he was already the quality player we see today.

With respect I think you are conflating his performances in the NRL with improvement. He is proving his quality, not improving. 

As he was SL best player in 2018, he should be good out of the gate. It would be concerning for our game if he wasn't.

It's not just playing but the overall environment. Don't underestimate the value of an 11 week nrl preseason and impact that has as opposed to a 4 week SL preseason whereby you have minimal on field sessions due to the weather. Bateman and all the English lads would be bigger, stronger, fitter more explosive than any time in their life before. Do you think that improves them as players?

I'm curious, do you actually think if you asked John Bateman (or any English player in the nrl) - have you improved as a player by playing in the nrl......there answer will 'No, I haven't. Not one bit'. I find it hard to fathom that you really believe that.

I only said hes upped his game by 2% to 5%. Not saying hes triple the player he was in SL. Not sure why we get so defensive about it.

[Dunbar]

33 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Yes. 

OK great. So tell me what good things Bateman is doing more often in the NRL now than when he first started. Because I have to tell you from what I can see his performances in the NRL have been top quality and consistent from game 1.

[barnyia]

Passing, but I don't think he's learnt that over there I just thing he has more freedom to do what he wants /sees 

[JohnM]

9 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

OK great. So tell me what good things Bateman is doing more often in the NRL now than when he first started. Because I have to tell you from what I can see his performances in the NRL have been top quality and consistent from game 1.

Errr... You are agreeing with me. 

[Dunbar]

20 minutes ago, AB90 said:

As he was SL best player in 2018, he should be good out of the gate. It would be concerning for our game if he wasn't.

It's not just playing but the overall environment. Don't underestimate the value of an 11 week nrl preseason and impact that has as opposed to a 4 week SL preseason whereby you have minimal on field sessions due to the weather. Bateman and all the English lads would be bigger, stronger, fitter more explosive than any time in their life before. Do you think that improves them as players?

I'm curious, do you actually think if you asked John Bateman (or any English player in the nrl) - have you improved as a player by playing in the nrl......there answer will 'No, I haven't. Not one bit'. I find it hard to fathom that you really believe that.

I only said hes upped his game by 2% to 5%. Not saying hes triple the player he was in SL. Not sure why we get so defensive about it.

As I said before. Don't just say 'because he is in the NRL'.

I agree that the NRL has better conditioning than over here and that the shorter season and extended pre-season benefits the players and allows them to fulfill their potential. 

But saying these things make Bateman a better player means he will fall back again when he comes back to Super League and the longer pre season goes and the conditioning becomes less professional. 

What you are saying is that the NRL has made Bateman a better player.  What I am saying is that the NRL has allowed Batemam to show how good he is. And those are different things.

Again, if the NRL had made him better then he would have improved over time but he was great from game 1.

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

I note that you did not include Josh Hodgson in your question, because his improvement since he joined Canberra is beyond dispute.

Maybe I should not have mentioned skills and stuck to performance levels. John Bateman is now considered a super star in the NRL. He won the Dally M medal for second rower of the year in 2019. He is regularly interviewed on Australian rugby league television programs. He was not performing at that level when he played at Wigan. And I say that with no disrespect intended for Shaun Wane. But the physical  conditioning (because of facilities) and motivation levels (because of the coach) of Bateman and Sutton are clearly higher since they joined Canberra.

So basically the NRL is easier than SL , hence why our lads show up better in it ?

[AB90]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

As I said before. Don't just say 'because he is in the NRL'.

I agree that the NRL has better conditioning than over here and that the shorter season and extended pre-season benefits the players and allows them to fulfill their potential. 

But saying these things make Bateman a better player means he will fall back again when he comes back to Super League and the loger pre season goes and the conditioning becomes less professional. 

What you are saying is that the NRL has made Bateman a better player.  What I am saying is that the NRL has allowed Batemam to show how good he is. And those are different things.

Again, if the NRL had made him better then he would have improved over time but he was great from game 1.

So playing with and against better players does not improve you as a player? That's your stance. Agree to disagree then.

Any player will tell you once they step up to international level it improves them as players. When they come back down to SL level the game will feel slower, eaiser etc. I.e an improved player.

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, AB90 said:

So playing with and against better players does not improve you as a player? That's your stance. Agree to disagree then.

Any player will tell you once they step up to international level it improves them as players. When they come back down to SL level the game will feel slower, eaiser etc. I.e an improved player.

What I am saying is really straight forward.  When Bateman arrived in the NRL he started very very well (as proved by the fact he was 3rd in the Dally M table after 6 rounds) and he continued to play at that high standard for the whole of 2019 and now that he has returned from injury in 2020.  People can say all they want that he is a better player now than he was at the beginning of 2019 but there is no evidence to prove that.

I don't think you answered the question, if the NRL has improved Bateman then he would have become progressively better during his stint over there.  Has he got better since his first games for the Raiders and, if so, how?

[AB90]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

What I am saying is really straight forward.  When Bateman arrived in the NRL he started very very well (as proved by the fact he was 3rd in the Dally M table after 6 rounds) and he continued to play at that high standard for the whole of 2019 and now that he has returned from injury in 2020.  People can say all they want that he is a better player now than he was at the beginning of 2019 but there is no evidence to prove that.

I don't think you answered the question, if the NRL has improved Bateman then he would have become progressively better during his stint over there.  Has he got better since his first games for the Raiders and, if so, how?

This is all very subjective.

Yes - I believe Bateman got better as the season went on. Hit peak form in the run into the finals. Refer to my previous posts as to the specifics.

[DoubleD]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

Fully agree, which is why, for example, England V France internationals will eventually improve France's performance, but do nothing for England's

True but I still think there’s some benefit for England playing, in terms of practicing combinations and attacking plays 

[GUBRATS]

It is impossible to compare different competitions , and how players play in them 

[Dunbar]

29 minutes ago, AB90 said:

This is all very subjective.

Yes - I believe Bateman got better as the season went on. Hit peak form in the run into the finals. Refer to my previous posts as to the specifics.

To bring this to a close from my end.  I agree that the NRL brings out the best in the Brits that go over there (and succeed) and I also believe that they have to play better in the NRL than they did in Super League in order to succeed.

But that does not objectively make them better players because of it; they are playing better but does that make them better players as I don't see any skills or abilities from these players that they didn't display previously.

[AB90]

23 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

To bring this to a close from my end.  I agree that the NRL brings out the best in the Brits that go over there (and succeed) and I also believe that they have to play better in the NRL than they did in Super League in order to succeed.

But that does not objectively make them better players because of it; they are playing better but does that make them better players as I don't see any skills or abilities from these players that they didn't display previously.

Looks like our definition of 'improving' or becoming a 'better' player differs. Lol

To finish, where my opinion differs from yours is that you note they are 'playing better' in the NRL but that doesn't translate to them being objectively a better player. But if someone is 'playing better' over a long period of time, surely that means they objectively are better or improved. I.e how does one 'play better' without improving their craft. (Hopefully that makes sense haha).

[Dunbar]

14 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Looks like our definition of 'improving' or becoming a 'better' player differs. Lol

To finish, where my opinion differs from yours is that you note they are 'playing better' in the NRL but that doesn't translate to them being objectively a better player. But if someone is 'playing better' over a long period of time, surely that means they objectively are better or improved. I.e how does one 'play better' without improving their craft. (Hopefully that makes sense haha).

Yes, it makes sense. And I don't think we are a million miles away in our thinking.

[barnyia]

They are playing just as well, but in a faster, tougher and more publicized competition? Is that a way of putting it? 

[JM2010]

I think that playing at higher more intense level does make you a better player. They might not go to the NRL and acquire new skills or add an extra dimension to their play but performing their existing skills in a more intense environment will probably fine tune these skills as they have to be at their best on a regular basis.

I've read interviews with Man Utd players who said that one reason they were so successful is because training was so intense and when they played against each other it was pretty ruthless so they had to be at their best which helped them perform at a higher level on game day 

[Rupert Prince]

This weekend 4 games were easy wins, one of them massively

 One other close game shared 50 points.

This tells me that NRL defences are $hite... and half their league are garbage.

Bateman was a good player at Wigan and he is a good player at Canberra.

In related news - We need a longer preseason and a shorter regular season, and in common with NRL we should get rid of 6-again and slow the game down, not speed it up, to (1) protect the health and well being of players and (2) stop it turning into basketball.