Tony Clubb at the disciplinary.

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah, not sure what he is accused of saying and whether something was misheard or not.

You would think some suitable evidence is held in order to avoid an embarrassing “he said, no I didn’t and no-one else heard me” situation that could only draw a not guilty result and potentially play out terribly in the media.

Yeah you'd hope so anyway.

Looking as if it was just any other incident put on report, presumably the match review do look at the available evidence, including referee report, and then decide charge.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

If Clubb is found to have made that comment he will probably get a severe punishment and deservedly so, but remember we've all heard people make racist comments and it probably wasn't the first time it was made on the playing field by other players 

That sounds like you're excusing him... if the sport wants to "tackle it" then this is a prime opportunity to do so (if guilty)

[Faithful1865]

Why on earth would Andre Savelio make up something as horrifying as this. Do people think he is that cynical. He was visibly upset and the punishment needs to fit the crime. In the present climate this needs dealing with firmly or the public will look at us and say we just don't care.

[gingerjon]

43 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah you'd hope so anyway.

Looking as if it was just any other incident put on report, presumably the match review do look at the available evidence, including referee report, and then decide charge.

There's several pages in the operational rules about what evidence they look at. The short version is "any they feel like".

[fieldofclothofgold]

15 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That sounds like you're excusing him... if the sport wants to "tackle it" then this is a prime opportunity to do so (if guilty)

I'm not excusing him I am saying if be is guilty he is not the only player in the game to make racist comments on or OFF the field.  If Guilty he should be severely punished and a warning to those who've got away with it to cut it out 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

50 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah you'd hope so anyway.

Looking as if it was just any other incident put on report, presumably the match review do look at the available evidence, including referee report, and then decide charge.

There is precedent for situations like this - where there's no actual evidence but an accusation is made. Leeds United goalkeeper Kiko Casilla was accused of making a racist comment against a Charlton player last year (can't remember if you're an LUFC fan Tommy, if so i'm sure you're aware) and in the end the independent commission ruled based on probability that Jonathan Leko was telling the truth and that Kiko Casilla's account was a lie and/or fabricated. He was banned him for 8 games. This case was slightly different in the sense Leko's team mate also said he heard the comments made by Casilla. I'm sure it won't sit comfortably with some people that a player could be found 'guilty' without sufficient evidence but as others have said and as the Casilla/Leko case shows, the victims in these matters have nothing to gain from lying, where as the accused behaviour always seems to be a little odd. 

[Lowdesert]

51 minutes ago, Spidey said:

That sounds like you're excusing him... if the sport wants to "tackle it" then this is a prime opportunity to do so (if guilty)

How many people have made a comment, in the heat of the moment, they stupidly said and then regretted?  

If we are an even handed society then we should follow the Rule guidelines we have now, work to support both Players and send strong messages out that things like this are unacceptable.

Tackling racism and dumb comments may take generations.  Making an example of anyone (or case) has to be handled in the right way.  Firm but fair but it doesn’t end there.

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

How many people have made a comment, in the heat of the moment, they stupidly said and then regretted?  

If we are an even handed society then we should follow the Rule guidelines we have now, work to support both Players and send strong messages out that things like this are unacceptable.

Tackling racism and dumb comments may take generations.  Making an example of anyone (or case) has to be handled in the right way.  Firm but fair but it doesn’t end there.

You can make stupid comments without being racist

[Lowdesert]

Just now, Spidey said:

You can make stupid comments without being racist

Obviously.  Some people don’t recognise what the word ‘racist’ means.  Just read back in this thread.  

My main point is that by taking an opportunity to ‘tackle it’ should not mean punishing an offender in such an unprecedented and severe way that leaves the masses satisfied but another person critically affected and without support.

[Tommygilf]

34 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

There is precedent for situations like this - where there's no actual evidence but an accusation is made. Leeds United goalkeeper Kiko Casilla was accused of making a racist comment against a Charlton player last year (can't remember if you're an LUFC fan Tommy, if so i'm sure you're aware) and in the end the independent commission ruled based on probability that Jonathan Leko was telling the truth and that Kiko Casilla's account was a lie and/or fabricated. He was banned him for 8 games. This case was slightly different in the sense Leko's team mate also said he heard the comments made by Casilla. I'm sure it won't sit comfortably with some people that a player could be found 'guilty' without sufficient evidence but as others have said and as the Casilla/Leko case shows, the victims in these matters have nothing to gain from lying, where as the accused behaviour always seems to be a little odd. 

Yeah I am a Leeds United fan so have been quite well abreast of the Kiko Casilla case. That said it was that long ago that I can't remember exactly if his story was clearly fictitious (ie he claimed that hesaid something similar which was obviously false) or whether he admitted saying it but claimed it wasn't intended offensively (ie "its normal lingo in Spain, I didn't know").

The Casilla case is very similar to this one actually the more I think about it, especially in the manner it has been subsequently dealt with. 

[Spidey]

12 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Obviously.  Some people don’t recognise what the word ‘racist’ means.  Just read back in this thread.  

My main point is that by taking an opportunity to ‘tackle it’ should not mean punishing an offender in such an unprecedented and severe way that leaves the masses satisfied but another person critically affected and without support.

What's the acceptable punishment in this circumstance?

[Eddie]

5 hours ago, Faithful1865 said:

Why on earth would Andre Savelio make up something as horrifying as this. Do people think he is that cynical. He was visibly upset and the punishment needs to fit the crime. In the present climate this needs dealing with firmly or the public will look at us and say we just don't care.

So you’d end someone’s career on the basis of someone saying they’d said something, even if there’s no proof? 

[Damien]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

So you’d end someone’s career on the basis of someone saying they’d said something, even if there’s no proof? 

It would set a very dangerous precedent if players are found guilty with absolutely no proof.

[Lowdesert]

6 minutes ago, Spidey said:

What's the acceptable punishment in this circumstance?

I could ask you the same question.  The RFL have Rules and Policy and they need to follow them.  If precedents are going to be set they need to be reasoned, just and fair.  Whatever the outcome, this incident won’t end the work needed to be done.

 

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

It would set a very dangerous precedent if players are found guilty with absolutely no proof.

Anyone could accuse anyone of anything and be taken at their word. 

[Davo5]

40 minutes ago, Spidey said:

You can make stupid comments without being racist

Does making one stupid comment involving ethnicity  whilst trying to knock the snot out of one another make a player a racist ?

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Does making one stupid comment involving ethnicity  whilst trying to knock the snot out of one another make a player a racist ?

Yes.

Yes, it does.

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Does making one stupid comment involving ethnicity  whilst trying to knock the snot out of one another make a player a racist ?

Certainly makes the comment racist and doesn't reflect well on the person. I'm willing to accept an apology etc to move on from this, but so far none has been forthcoming.

[Spidey]

37 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I could ask you the same question.  The RFL have Rules and Policy and they need to follow them.  If precedents are going to be set they need to be reasoned, just and fair.  Whatever the outcome, this incident won’t end the work needed to be done.

 

Sure - Sine die is too much, 8 games too little, If found guilty I reckon a 1 year ban would send out the message required, ensuring he attends the appropriate courses to get educated.

[Eddie]

19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Certainly makes the comment racist and doesn't reflect well on the person. I'm willing to accept an apology etc to move on from this, but so far none has been forthcoming.

If he hasn’t said what he’s accused of there’s no reason for him to apologise. I’m surprised there hasn’t been a statement. 

[Eddie]

25 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes.

Yes, it does.

It doesn’t necessarily, we all say stupid things that we don’t mean in the heat of the moment. 

[Spidey]

Just now, Eddie said:

It doesn’t necessarily, we all say stupid things that we don’t mean in the heat of the moment. 

Yep - but why bring race into it?  That's still a choice

[Eddie]

Just now, Spidey said:

Yep - but why bring race into it?  That's still a choice

I’m not defending him, I’m saying people say things in the heat of the moment that they don’t mean. If someone called someone else a see you next Tuesday on the rugby pitch they probably don’t mean it. 

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

I’m not defending him, I’m saying people say things in the heat of the moment that they don’t mean. If someone called someone else a see you next Tuesday on the rugby pitch they probably don’t mean it. 

But what you are implying its okay to be racist in the heat of the moment because really you don't mean it?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

35 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Does making one stupid comment involving ethnicity  whilst trying to knock the snot out of one another make a player a racist ?

I think there's a point to say if Clubb came/comes out and said something along the lines of he didn't realise how this kind of language was deemed racist, apologises, agrees to go on some re-education program and takes his medicine with the ban, then there is a route back for him. Fighting it by saying he either never said or just saying nothing will be worse long term IMO.