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EURO 2020 ('21) THREAD


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On 09/06/2021 at 00:31, Niels said:

They could have won it in all of those years but were nowhere near good enough.

In 1976 Czechoslovakia eliminated England at the group stage. Denmark and Sweden eliminated them in 1992. They went out in the Quarter finals to Portugal in 2004 who lost to winners Greece twice. Then in 2016 they were knocked out by Iceland, one of the poorer opposition Portugal "only" drew with, who lost 5-2 next game. 

They were lucky with the draw in the last world cup when all the top sides were in the other half and still couldn't reach the final. 

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of hype about England every year (there's an Only Fools bit from 1982 I love where Del Boy is ridiculing Rodney for his naivety in thinking England will win the World Cup) but there is also a tendency to overplay how bad we are and to play down any success we've had in a way that other nations aren't scrutinised.

We were certainly good enough to have won the Euros at some point. This isn't the same as saying we've been the best team at any tournament, but you're making the mistake of thinking the absolute best teams always win. This is true far more often in a game like RL than football. 

Football is so often decided on single knife-edge incidents. Take penalty shootouts as a perfect example. They are essentially a lottery, one that England have a bad record in (25%). If this was just 50% we'd have at the very least almost certainly made the final of a big tournament. There's only so bad you can be to get them into a shootout in the first place.

Of course there have been tournaments were we've been properly poor (88, 92, 10, 14, 16) but so are other nations. France have had quite recent shockers too where they've finished bottom of the group. We've also had tournaments where we had decent sides that with a bit of luck could've won (82, 90, 96, 02, 04, 18).

Even when we've been worse, we've had knife-edge moments where we could've changed history. Imagine if Waddle hit the post and it went in in 90, if Gazza had reached that ball in 96, if Campbell's goal in 98 wasn't ruled out, if Kane had scored and not hit the post to make it 2-0 against Croatia. In each of these examples we either definitely go through or almost certainly do - 3 of them would result in a final. 

Dont mistake this as some argument that we've been incredibly unlucky and deserved to win, but to say we  were nowhere near good enough to have ever made it is just wrong. 

 

Edited by Maximus Decimus
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31 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of hype about England every year (there's an Only Fools bit from 1982 I love where Del Boy is ridiculing Rodney for his naivety in thinking England will win the World Cup) but there is also a tendency to overplay how bad we are and to play down any success we've had in a way that other nations aren't scrutinised.

We were certainly good enough to have won the Euros at some point. This isn't the same as saying we've been the best team at any tournament, but you're making the mistake of thinking the absolute best teams always win. This is true far more often in a game like RL than football. 

Football is so often decided on single knife-edge incidents. Take penalty shootouts as a perfect example. They are essentially a lottery, one that England have a bad record in (25%). If this was just 50% we'd have at the very least almost certainly made the final of a big tournament. There's only so bad you can be to get them into a shootout in the first place.

Of course there have been tournaments were we've been properly poor (88, 92, 10, 14, 16) but so are other nations. France have had quite recent shockers too where they've finished bottom of the group. We've also had tournaments where we had decent sides that with a bit of luck could've won (82, 90, 96, 02, 04, 18).

Even when we've been worse, we've had knife-edge moments where we could've changed history. Imagine if Waddle hit the post and it went in in 90, if Gazza had reached that ball in 96, if Campbell's goal in 98 wasn't ruled out, if Kane had scored and not hit the post to make it 2-0 against Croatia. In each of these examples we either definitely go through or almost certainly do - 3 of them would result in a final. 

Dont mistake this as some argument that we've been incredibly unlucky and deserved to win, but to say we  were nowhere near good enough to have ever made it is just wrong. 

 

Thanks, I thought you made some good points.

I read an article in the Daily Star (I know) yesterday about the Sol Campbell disallowed goal. It was against Portugal in 2004 in the QF. It was a foul by John Terry that caused the goal to be disallowed.

I think Greece that year does support your point about the best team not always winning. However, perhaps they were the best team in that tournament as nobody could score against them when it mattered.

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13 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Looking forward to the opening game between Italy and Turkey.

Going to miss all the Saturday games bonanza due to other commitments.

Then back on Sunday.

I'd love Turkey to do well and they have had some good results recently beating France and Netherlands. 

They could surprise but a lot depends on the draw and if it opens up. 

I think the winner will come from the group of death as long as they don't take too much out of each other.

You are usually a good judge, do you have any suggestions?

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27 minutes ago, Niels said:

I'd love Turkey to do well and they have had some good results recently beating France and Netherlands. 

They could surprise but a lot depends on the draw and if it opens up. 

I think the winner will come from the group of death as long as they don't take too much out of each other.

You are usually a good judge, do you have any suggestions?

I think you can make a case for quite a few teams this time around and I can understand why people are picking out France as they have the best squad which could prove vital in this elongated format.

Personally, in the run up to it, I felt like Spain might be best equipped to beat them after seeing them completely take apart Germany recently.  But timing is everything and maybe they’ve peaked too soon.

Now I’m edging towards Italy who are on an historic winning run which is no mean feat given their rich footballing history.  I can understand why many are looking at them on an individual basis and saying they’ve not enough star quality.  I believe though good teams can overcome and be more than the sum of their parts.

As for Turkey, I think they’ll have too much for Wales and Switzerland.  I saw part of the match with the Dutch and read about the result with France. Seems like some young players are emerging and nobody should take them lightly.

I’m no expert though! 😃

Edited by Gerrumonside ref
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8 hours ago, Niels said:

I think Greece that year does support your point about the best team not always winning. However, perhaps they were the best team in that tournament as nobody could score against them when it mattered.

Greece played a remorselessly defensive approach that probably wouldn't work now but absolutely did the job. Their dullness was compelling in an odd way. I remember that in the final when they got the corner you could see Portugal having a collective "oh no, what if they score" moment. They'd got into their opponent's heads and, turns out, that was what they needed to take the title.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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So it starts tonight,  looking forward to it,but I do think Sky's coverage is way over the top for a tournament they don't even have the rights to. Not exactly encouraging people to stick to the SL. I'll record the SL game and watch it afterwards,  but Sky are enticing viewers to not watch their own material,  odd. I wonder if they'll big up the world Cup in the autumn and encourage viewers to the beeb. 

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13 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

So it starts tonight,  looking forward to it,but I do think Sky's coverage is way over the top for a tournament they don't even have the rights to. Not exactly encouraging people to stick to the SL. I'll record the SL game and watch it afterwards,  but Sky are enticing viewers to not watch their own material,  odd. I wonder if they'll big up the world Cup in the autumn and encourage viewers to the beeb. 

They always go extra for football tournaments. Presumably because they want Sky Sports News to still be the background channel of choice in most pubs.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Bad news, England fans - I'm in a sweepstake on another forum, and when the draw was made, I ended up with Good Old Blighty.

Edited by Futtocks

"We are easily breakable, by illness or falling, or a million other ways of leaving this earthly life. We are just so much mashed potato."  Don Estelle

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2 hours ago, Futtocks said:

Bad news, England fans - I'm in a sweepstake on another forum, and when the draw was made, I ended up with Good Old Blighty.

This is the first year that I’ve not been involved in a sweepstake at work for a football tournament for around 20 years.

Not sure if this is going to be an ongoing trend as a result of home working.

I’m sure we had one ‘just for fun’ on here for the last World Cup?

EDIT: During the making of this whiny post I have been faithfully informed that I have been entered in work sweep  by default.  The draw has taken place and I have pulled out the mighty Switzerland (minus the actual excitement of drawing the team myself).

Edited by Gerrumonside ref
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16 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of hype about England every year (there's an Only Fools bit from 1982 I love where Del Boy is ridiculing Rodney for his naivety in thinking England will win the World Cup) but there is also a tendency to overplay how bad we are and to play down any success we've had in a way that other nations aren't scrutinised.

We were certainly good enough to have won the Euros at some point. This isn't the same as saying we've been the best team at any tournament, but you're making the mistake of thinking the absolute best teams always win. This is true far more often in a game like RL than football. 

Football is so often decided on single knife-edge incidents. Take penalty shootouts as a perfect example. They are essentially a lottery, one that England have a bad record in (25%). If this was just 50% we'd have at the very least almost certainly made the final of a big tournament. There's only so bad you can be to get them into a shootout in the first place.

Of course there have been tournaments were we've been properly poor (88, 92, 10, 14, 16) but so are other nations. France have had quite recent shockers too where they've finished bottom of the group. We've also had tournaments where we had decent sides that with a bit of luck could've won (82, 90, 96, 02, 04, 18).

Even when we've been worse, we've had knife-edge moments where we could've changed history. Imagine if Waddle hit the post and it went in in 90, if Gazza had reached that ball in 96, if Campbell's goal in 98 wasn't ruled out, if Kane had scored and not hit the post to make it 2-0 against Croatia. In each of these examples we either definitely go through or almost certainly do - 3 of them would result in a final. 

Dont mistake this as some argument that we've been incredibly unlucky and deserved to win, but to say we  were nowhere near good enough to have ever made it is just wrong. 

 

I agree. England fans have moderate aspirations generally.

People who say that England fans always expect to win the World Cup can not actually name a football fan they know who seriously expect that. England have a reasonable chance, certainly more than Greece or Denmark did and to say they could win is true, reasonable and far from thinking that they shall.

I think the perception that England fans have unrealistic expectations was from when football was working class and people would sneer at the people getting excited about the World Cup and equate with with unrealistic expectations. My Dad (born 1950) says he has never known England fans expect to win a tournament ever.

The excitment over the semi-final in 1996, equally Sweden as host nation in 1992, really does show how modest expectations have been.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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The current crop of England players have had experience of success in the various youth tournaments, which might be a help this time around. To be honest, I really don't know. I have neither high, low or medium expectations at the moment.

"We are easily breakable, by illness or falling, or a million other ways of leaving this earthly life. We are just so much mashed potato."  Don Estelle

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12 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

The current crop of England players have had experience of success in the various youth tournaments, which might be a help this time around. To be honest, I really don't know. I have neither high, low or medium expectations at the moment.

I really like people like Marcus Rashford for all they’ve achieved and Gareth Southgate too seems very likeable.

I’d like this group more than perhaps others to taste success for some of these reasons and they say the group are very together.

I think in terms of their development we need to eliminate at least one other top European footballing nation at some point in the tournament to give us confidence and then take it from there.

I wouldn’t overlook the difficulties Croatia, Scotland and a re-emerging Czech team might give us first though.

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20 hours ago, Niels said:

Thanks, I thought you made some good points.

I read an article in the Daily Star (I know) yesterday about the Sol Campbell disallowed goal. It was against Portugal in 2004 in the QF. It was a foul by John Terry that caused the goal to be disallowed.

I think Greece that year does support your point about the best team not always winning. However, perhaps they were the best team in that tournament as nobody could score against them when it mattered.

Ta for that.

I could include Greece but they are very much an outlier. If they won it, we definitely could but then so could a team like Scotland. They were well organised but beat Portugal with 1 shot on target. I'm not sure you'd win many tournaments like even with an awesome defence! 

Portugal last time out are a better example. They were very lucky to go through the group in 3rd, had an easier route to the final (Poland and Wales) including a penalty shootout and won one game when it mattered, despite having the worse of most of the game. If this had been England we'd be hearing about how we didn't deserve it or were lucky.

I've given up thinking I'll ever see England win in dominant fashion like France in 2018, but I cling onto the hope that we'll win something in my lifetime. 

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4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I agree. England fans have moderate aspirations generally.

People who say that England fans always expect to win the World Cup can not actually name a football fan they know who seriously expect that. England have a reasonable chance, certainly more than Greece or Denmark did and to say they could win is true, reasonable and far from thinking that they shall.

I think the perception that England fans have unrealistic expectations was from when football was working class and people would sneer at the people getting excited about the World Cup and equate with with unrealistic expectations. My Dad (born 1950) says he has never known England fans expect to win a tournament ever.

The excitment over the semi-final in 1996, equally Sweden as host nation in 1992, really does show how modest expectations have been.

I'd agree. I don't think many people think we will win, it's more a case of people getting their hopes up.

I don't think I've ever thought we were the most likely to win, but I've certainly got very excited when we looked decent and lived in eternal hope that it would happen when we weren't looking good, resulting in major disappointment afterwards.

I honestly don't know how I feel this time. I think we're quite good, but I think the prospect of the group of death in the knockouts has dampened my hopes considerably. 

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37 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'd agree. I don't think many people think we will win, it's more a case of people getting their hopes up.

I don't think I've ever thought we were the most likely to win, but I've certainly got very excited when we looked decent and lived in eternal hope that it would happen when we weren't looking good, resulting in major disappointment afterwards.

I honestly don't know how I feel this time. I think we're quite good, but I think the prospect of the group of death in the knockouts has dampened my hopes considerably. 

Being abroad has given me a different perspective.

I saw in the Danish newspaper a preview of the tournament and England were one of the big three favourites they listed. They would seem like hubris to British ears if it came from an English person, but it is reasonable.

The Danish side of 1986 were great, but in the end disappointing. Equally, the 2006 England side had great players, but were disappointing.

Even your post indicates the chance of actually beating a genuinely decent side seems far fetched. This makes sense based on England experience, but shows the modesty of ambition.

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"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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