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2 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Similar reflections were the staple conversation of mean and moody 80s teenagers fond of big black coats and cockatoo haircuts.

"Bands so niche there must be a debate about whether they even exist" as I remember Steven Wells (RIP) writing.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Apologies if it has been mentioned in the myriad of topics covered so far but one thing that I always notice (and it does annoy to be honest even if it is minor) is the way the BBC website shows the lineups for Rugby League teams.

Invariably the home team is shown in positions 1-13 as they would walk on the pitch but the away team is shown with the forwards then the backs (if you forgive, as a Union team would be shown).

Example tonight with the Saints Leeds game:

St Helens v Leeds Rhinos - Rugby League - BBC Sport

 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Apologies if it has been mentioned in the myriad of topics covered so far but one thing that I always notice (and it does annoy to be honest even if it is minor) is the way the BBC website shows the lineups for Rugby League teams.

Invariably the home team is shown in positions 1-13 as they would walk on the pitch but the away team is shown with the forwards then the backs (if you forgive, as a Union team would be shown).

Example tonight with the Saints Leeds game:

St Helens v Leeds Rhinos - Rugby League - BBC Sport

 

It's not something I particularly look at but that is indeed strange. Similarly squad numbers don't really help when it comes to the presentation of teams like that.

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's not something I particularly look at but that is indeed strange. Similarly squad numbers don't really help when it comes to the presentation of teams like that.

I have said many times, I hate squad numbers and I would love to see teams walk onto the pitch wearing Jerseys 1 to 13 as it would really help newcomers to understand the positions and the play.

Anyway, on the BBC site. The thing is, it isn't just a one off, pretty much every match the home side are listed in positions 1 to 13 and the away side in the way Leeds are here. It's weird. 

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I have said many times, I hate squad numbers and I would love to see teams walk onto the pitch wearing Jerseys 1 to 13 as it would really help newcomers to understand the positions and the play.

Anyway, on the BBC site. The thing is, it isn't just a one off, pretty much every match the home side are listed in positions 1 to 13 and the away side in the way Leeds are here. It's weird. 

Someone must transcribe the list because the media will be given a copy of the clubs' team sheet in position (1 to 13) order as submitted by each team before the match.

It makes you wonder who rearranges it and why. 

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4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

"Bands so niche there must be a debate about whether they even exist" as I remember Steven Wells (RIP) writing.

During the ‘ranting/poet’ scene of the early 80’s, of which Bradford was quite a prominent player, I saw Seething Wells a few times. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I knew him well….but I sort of did via other people. I reconnected with him not long before he died and can report he was not into RL whatsoever, despite coming to prominence from Bradford (not sure if he was from here or just lived here like Ian Astbury) 
There was another ranter called Ginger John. He was a good lad but a pretty rubbish  poet. 
 

Oh and Attila The Stockbroker who I never liked. You’d love him though. 

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8 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Absolutely correct but that's not necessarily the point here. 

`Twas mere wistful nostalgia.

In respect of "the point here", there was a women`s Soccer tournament (think it was the 2011 World Cup) when the BBC relegated England`s games to the red button. There was a substantial backlash. Some of it might have been from non-fans who regard women`s Soccer as a feminist workshop, but nevertheless it had an effect.

If the BBC made a decision that similarly downgraded women`s RL, would there be an equivalent reaction? Almost certainly not, for all the same reasons that pertain to men`s RL in the UK. Some of those reasons are related to deep-rooted deficiencies in our governing body.

What have we done in the past decade compared to Soccer?

The last women`s RLWC was in 2017. Did the RFL make any effort to have it covered? Nothing that I can recall.

The last one to be played over here was in 2013. Hardly any RL fans would have even known it was happening. And I`m afraid I have to include myself in that.

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3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

During the ‘ranting/poet’ scene of the early 80’s, of which Bradford was quite a prominent player, I saw Seething Wells a few times. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I knew him well….but I sort of did via other people. I reconnected with him not long before he died and can report he was not into RL whatsoever, despite coming to prominence from Bradford (not sure if he was from here or just lived here like Ian Astbury) 

I remember a big article Seething Wells did in the NME about the Plaster Casters of Chicago. I`d never heard of them previously.

Subsequently I noticed in the clips of Hendrix on the Lulu show that Noel Redding is wearing a Plaster Casters of Chicago tee-shirt.

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3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I remember a big article Seething Wells did in the NME about the Plaster Casters of Chicago. I`d never heard of them previously.

Subsequently I noticed in the clips of Hendrix on the Lulu show that Noel Redding is wearing a Plaster Casters of Chicago tee-shirt.

I’ll be honest, that’s a new one on me, I will have a gander.

That’s presumably the clip of Hendrix where he stops playing Hey Joe (IIRC) and does an impromptu version of Creams’ Sunshine of Your Love…..but this is definitely thread drift. 

 

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4 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

`Twas mere wistful nostalgia.

In respect of "the point here", there was a women`s Soccer tournament (think it was the 2011 World Cup) when the BBC relegated England`s games to the red button. There was a substantial backlash. Some of it might have been from non-fans who regard women`s Soccer as a feminist workshop, but nevertheless it had an effect.

If the BBC made a decision that similarly downgraded women`s RL, would there be an equivalent reaction? Almost certainly not, for all the same reasons that pertain to men`s RL in the UK. Some of those reasons are related to deep-rooted deficiencies in our governing body.

What have we done in the past decade compared to Soccer?

The last women`s RLWC was in 2017. Did the RFL make any effort to have it covered? Nothing that I can recall.

The last one to be played over here was in 2013. Hardly any RL fans would have even known it was happening. And I`m afraid I have to include myself in that.

Yes, I’ll repeat again that the RL authorities have been spectacularly woeful when it comes to pushing the game. 

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7 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Oh and Attila The Stockbroker who I never liked. You’d love him though. 

The name has put be going within a country mile of him for my entire life and I intend to keep it that way.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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17 hours ago, Damien said:

That is a completely meaningless statement and does not mean discrimination.

Is women's Rugby League being discriminated against because it doesn't get the exact same coverage as men? Your logic dictates that it is. Please answer honestly then extrapolate that against various sports that get the majority of media attention.

I don’t think anyone would advocate equal coverage. They do deserve an extra push though. Outside the Olympic events tennis has been just about the only unisex sport that has given women a fair platform, and the result of a century of equal development is the standard is excellent. Steffi Graf is pound for pound on the level of a Federer. 

The standard isn’t great (certainly in women’s football) but that’s because it hasn’t been allowed to be better. While I’m all for a fair push in terms of exposure the claim for equal pay (coming from one place) is a whole other matter. If you play in front of 2,000 people (and whatever television audience) you should get a slice of that, not a slice of a non existent 40,000 crowd. Players in sport generally get what they deserve, unless an owner is swindling money (which they wouldn’t get away with).

 

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I have seen nothing that is bad about the push on diversity in sport. I think it has made the entertainment options on offer far richer. 

I think it is a bit of a perfect storm at the moment that women's sport is taking advantage of. I think there is a push around inequality in society which helps, allowing for more investment and interest to be cultivated. It also comes at a time when sports rights can be difficult for some companies. If we strip out all the new women's sport that is shown, there would be a lot less live sport on TV, and Sky, BT and the BBC have embraced this to get plenty of filler. This is a challenge for men's RL as we have traditionally been a filler, whereas other sports are getting that now. 

But despite RL being rather behind on this stuff, in 2021 we have had the BBC cover the women's and wheelchair Challenge Cups live, Sky to cover the SL finals for Women and Wheelchair, in addition to weekly highlights and we would have seen tens of games live from the women's and wheelchair world cups. 

I think we need to push even harder in 2022, more double headers and push for more TV coverage as cameras will be at each ground. 

We should also remember that it is in its infancy, but this kind of coverage can really expediate growth and improve standards more quickly than normal. 

For me, a world with more women's sport is a better world. I enjoy watching plenty of it, although I don't bother with football. 

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9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I have seen nothing that is bad about the push on diversity in sport. I think it has made the entertainment options on offer far richer. 

I think it is a bit of a perfect storm at the moment that women's sport is taking advantage of. I think there is a push around inequality in society which helps, allowing for more investment and interest to be cultivated. It also comes at a time when sports rights can be difficult for some companies. If we strip out all the new women's sport that is shown, there would be a lot less live sport on TV, and Sky, BT and the BBC have embraced this to get plenty of filler. This is a challenge for men's RL as we have traditionally been a filler, whereas other sports are getting that now. 

But despite RL being rather behind on this stuff, in 2021 we have had the BBC cover the women's and wheelchair Challenge Cups live, Sky to cover the SL finals for Women and Wheelchair, in addition to weekly highlights and we would have seen tens of games live from the women's and wheelchair world cups. 

I think we need to push even harder in 2022, more double headers and push for more TV coverage as cameras will be at each ground. 

We should also remember that it is in its infancy, but this kind of coverage can really expediate growth and improve standards more quickly than normal. 

For me, a world with more women's sport is a better world. I enjoy watching plenty of it, although I don't bother with football. 

This is an interesting take.

Sorry to bring us all back to hell, but I have been reading a piece by Karen Carney (ex player and now broadcaster) who pinpoints the success of international women’s football as being the real turning point for the domestic game.

Many of the comments below are easily applicable to rugby league where perhaps we are at I believe and could learn:

“The women’s game has gone from a vicious cycle to a virtuous one since the inception of the WSL. Beforehand the lack of funding and exposure meant the product was not what it should have been, but this has changed. Having major international tournaments visible has been a great boost, because it helps showcase the quality within the women’s game, which then attracts sponsors and money into the sport to keep it evolving and improving.

Previously, it was a hard sell to get people to watch a sport that when seen on TV was played in front of small crowds. Getting excited about what is happening on the pitch is not easy when the atmosphere is absent but the WSL has helped this grow in conjunction with England’s successes. The penny dropped in 2012 when 80,000 turned up at Wembley for the women’s final at the Olympics and English football has capitalised on this.

The 2019 Women’s World Cup was another turning point, proving the appetite for the women’s game. For England’s semi-final against the USAthere were more than 53,000 inside the stadium and 11.7 million watched a slick, professional broadcast at home, giving a great image of women’s football. It made household names of the likes of Ellen White and Lucy Bronze, which aided momentum.”

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

This is an interesting take.

Sorry to bring us all back to hell, but I have been reading a piece by Karen Carney (ex player and now broadcaster) who pinpoints the success of international women’s football as being the real turning point for the domestic game.

Many of the comments below are easily applicable to rugby league where perhaps we are at I believe and could learn:

“The women’s game has gone from a vicious cycle to a virtuous one since the inception of the WSL. Beforehand the lack of funding and exposure meant the product was not what it should have been, but this has changed. Having major international tournaments visible has been a great boost, because it helps showcase the quality within the women’s game, which then attracts sponsors and money into the sport to keep it evolving and improving.

Previously, it was a hard sell to get people to watch a sport that when seen on TV was played in front of small crowds. Getting excited about what is happening on the pitch is not easy when the atmosphere is absent but the WSL has helped this grow in conjunction with England’s successes. The penny dropped in 2012 when 80,000 turned up at Wembley for the women’s final at the Olympics and English football has capitalised on this.

The 2019 Women’s World Cup was another turning point, proving the appetite for the women’s game. For England’s semi-final against the USAthere were more than 53,000 inside the stadium and 11.7 million watched a slick, professional broadcast at home, giving a great image of women’s football. It made household names of the likes of Ellen White and Lucy Bronze, which aided momentum.”

 

 

I should add, I'm not disagreeing with the other points being made here around the growth, I am adding to them. I think some of the things individual sports have done has been very impressive. 

But one of the big changes is that broadcasters have opened their eyes and minds a lot more imho. 

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17 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

This is an interesting take.

Sorry to bring us all back to hell, but I have been reading a piece by Karen Carney (ex player and now broadcaster) who pinpoints the success of international women’s football as being the real turning point for the domestic game.

Many of the comments below are easily applicable to rugby league where perhaps we are at I believe and could learn:

On this point, specifically I think the World Cup is a huge opportunity for us. Based on the immaturity of women's RL I think we are relatively fortunate that the BBC are being so supportive (that pushing against an open door point I am making), but with an extra year I think we need a hell of a lot of focus on this tournament and it could be a game changer for us. 

I'll be looking to go to a few of the women's games, and as you say, Big crowds showing a credible sport on the BBC could do wonders for us. 

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19 hours ago, Damien said:

Even women like Laura Davies in Golf and Alison Fisher in Snooker were household names, that is before the likes of athletes and tennis players.

I've been mulling this. Partly because I know that Laura Davies was a big name but I can't ever remember seeing her in competition live on the TV. There were three English winners of the Women's British Open in the 1980s and I'm not entirely convinced that anyone outside their immediate families could name the other two.

The fact that her name was known appears to have been more to do with the quirk of who became famous and got on to the Question of Sport circuit (for example) rather than particularly deep coverage of women's golf.

It's an irrelevant digression at this time and I'm not making any particular point - just trying to tally my memory with the reality.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I have seen nothing that is bad about the push on diversity in sport. I think it has made the entertainment options on offer far richer. 

I think it is a bit of a perfect storm at the moment that women's sport is taking advantage of. I think there is a push around inequality in society which helps, allowing for more investment and interest to be cultivated. It also comes at a time when sports rights can be difficult for some companies. If we strip out all the new women's sport that is shown, there would be a lot less live sport on TV, and Sky, BT and the BBC have embraced this to get plenty of filler. This is a challenge for men's RL as we have traditionally been a filler, whereas other sports are getting that now. 

But despite RL being rather behind on this stuff, in 2021 we have had the BBC cover the women's and wheelchair Challenge Cups live, Sky to cover the SL finals for Women and Wheelchair, in addition to weekly highlights and we would have seen tens of games live from the women's and wheelchair world cups. 

I think we need to push even harder in 2022, more double headers and push for more TV coverage as cameras will be at each ground. 

We should also remember that it is in its infancy, but this kind of coverage can really expediate growth and improve standards more quickly than normal. 

For me, a world with more women's sport is a better world. I enjoy watching plenty of it, although I don't bother with football. 

I'll just add - as someone who has been a supporter of several organisations pushing both to increase women's participation in sport and the visibility of that sport - that this perfect storm didn't just happen. A lot of people, over many decades, made it their absolute focus and made themselves very annoying and unpopular in doing so.

To nick a quote from a Scandinavian writer that I like to use a lot: you'll do all the leg work, you'll get everything in place, you'll make sure that when the time comes you are ready, and then when the time comes, nobody will see any of that and they will call you lucky.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'll just add - as someone who has been a supporter of several organisations pushing both to increase women's participation in sport and the visibility of that sport - that this perfect storm didn't just happen. A lot of people, over many decades, made it their absolute focus and made themselves very annoying and unpopular in doing so.

To nick a quote from a Scandinavian writer that I like to use a lot: you'll do all the leg work, you'll get everything in place, you'll make sure that when the time comes you are ready, and then when the time comes, nobody will see any of that and they will call you lucky.

That's a very good quote. My post is over-simplistic because I don't go into that level of detail but it's spot on. 

I find it amazing that only a few years ago female tennis players were having to fight for equal pay, and even now some don't like it. 

I certainly don't dismiss these things as lucky. I will add though that RL is benefiting from this shift, and I'm not sure we have been at the forefront of this battle. 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

That's a very good quote. My post is over-simplistic because I don't go into that level of detail but it's spot on. 

I find it amazing that only a few years ago female tennis players were having to fight for equal pay, and even now some don't like it. 

I certainly don't dismiss these things as lucky. I will add though that RL is benefiting from this shift, and I'm not sure we have been at the forefront of this battle. 

To be fair, woman tennis players were never under paid as they play a lot less games than men do. Even though the likes of Wimbledon pay them equally on paper if you look at the number of games each play the Woman are massively overpaid compared to the men.

Saying that Womans tennis is great and as good to watch as the mens but equal it isn't in terms of money.

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20 minutes ago, Mr Frisky said:

To be fair, woman tennis players were never under paid as they play a lot less games than men do. Even though the likes of Wimbledon pay them equally on paper if you look at the number of games each play the Woman are massively overpaid compared to the men.

Saying that Womans tennis is great and as good to watch as the mens but equal it isn't in terms of money.

This idea that women's tennis players are overpaid or equally paid based on sets played is a bit of a myth.

The majors see men play best of 5 sets and women best of 3 but the vast majority of the tennis circuit in both the men's and women's game are best of 3.

Take the 2021 Canadian Open as an example of a non-major... both are best of 3 sets and the prize money on offer for the men was $3.5M US while for the women it was $1.8M.

The women may have played 8 weeks a year for comparatively better pay (dividing prize money by sets played for the 4 majors... although even that will depend on the prize pot) but for the rest of the year they are certainly not overpaid... in fact paid less for the same amount of effort is probably the best description.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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1 hour ago, Mr Frisky said:

To be fair, woman tennis players were never under paid as they play a lot less games than men do. Even though the likes of Wimbledon pay them equally on paper if you look at the number of games each play the Woman are massively overpaid compared to the men.

Saying that Womans tennis is great and as good to watch as the mens but equal it isn't in terms of money.

We shouldnt pay by the minute though. 

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