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After 40 years have we finally given up on cracking the London market?


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10 hours ago, langpark said:

I guess not. But if crowds are up this season compared to last, then one could argue that the proof is in the pudding. 

Also, in all fairness. £22 does not go very far in London. So to me, compared to London's prices and cost of living, it does not sound all that unreasonable to me.  (my humble opinion as a non-Londoner). 

The adult price is fine as far as I am concerned.... the kids one is too (now)

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7 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Yes, really.

You evidently haven't been paying attention to what various posters have said about London and Londoners on this and other threads, and more generally about non-heartlanders on other threads.

Those who've posted about their experiences when trying to talk up the game with their work colleagues, neighbours, etc. have all made the same observation.  A clear majority had no idea that two versions of rugby even exist, and most of the remainder who do look down on RL because they perceive it as a small time regional game with limited appeal.

Also, a few posters on this thread who live (or have lived) in the south have confirmed that the southerners they know don't know anything about the RL towns up north.  And if they did know much about them that likely wouldn't help, because they likely wouldn't consider them the sort of places where big time major pro sport is played.

Yes Londoners have been treated to big matches which drew big crowds and yes a good percentage of those numbers didn't live in the North, but that doesn't automatically mean that they were Londoners or even southerners.  After the numbers of northerners who moved down south and expat Aussies and Kiwis are subtracted from those numbers, how many genuine southerners (let along Londoners) would be left?

In short, those big crowds are not evidence of RL cutting through at all, it's a fallacy to say otherwise.

As for me, I'm Canadian and I live in Canada, though I have British heritage so I know more about Britain than the average Canadian.  I know a thing or two about the attitudes and outlook of big city dwellers, I've seen that firsthand, and what the posters here who know Londoners have said about their complete lack of awareness of the North doesn't surprise me at all.

Those school programs, local business tie ups etc. wouldn't count for much if soccer wasn't a huge sport in London.  They piggyback on the interest in soccer which the big pro soccer clubs created and maintain by playing in big, glamourous competitions.  RL suffers because it doesn't have anything big or glamourous to compare with that.

I don’t buy the “Londoners have never heard of small northern town” line. Broncos would kill for an average attendance of over 5,000 like Fourth Division Orient get. I don’t for one second believe that they get those sorts of crowds because football people have heard of small northern towns like Barrow, Chesterfield or have a particularly great knowledge of Port Vale and Stoke’s geographical make-up. People haven’t heard of Batley, Dewsbury or Swinton because Rugby League’s profile is so small, the profile of the game outside of Super League is non-existent and London do so little to build a reputable brand or an entertainment venue that people actually want to attend. I don’t believe people attend Dulwich Hamlet (who get massive crowds for their level) or Clapton (who have humongous crowds for essentially being park level football) have a particular knowledge of the towns of the clubs of their opponents or their standing in the footballing world and the majority attend for reasons unrelated to geography or club size. 

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The issue is not northern towns in that Jughead is correct. Its that Rugby league is just not on anybody's radar down here.  In London you get people talking about sports in the following order

  • Football
  • Rugby Union (England / 6 nations however, not so much club rugby)
  • Cricket (Again England, not so much club cricket)
  • NFL
  • NBA (not so much BBL, just the american teams)
  • Boxing
  • Rugby League \ Netball \ Ice Hocky

Where I work, we have sweepstakes on Football, Cricket, Six Nations, Superbowl right now. When I suggested Rugby League, you get blank looks.  You have to climb this ladder, and the only way you could possibly do it would be England winning the world cup, and then having an ashes series next year with at least one if not two games in London. Then you start a franchise London club (not broncos or skolars as too much baggage), buliding on the England teams success.

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While most of this debate seems to surround one particular club in London, it should not be seen that that club represents the full picture of rugby league in Lobdon.

The London and South East Junior Rugby League have forecast numbers in 2022 greater than 2017 , 61 teams - so no contraction there. And this is in a competition that has produced so many players for the sport at all levels..

To the North of London - the East Region have a record 11 clubs delivering the sport at different age groups

All of those clubs are represented by individuals committed to rugby league in London and the South East

Perhaps we should just be grateful for the rugby league assets we have in 'London' and not dwell too much on lesser matters.

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2 hours ago, crashmon said:

The issue is not northern towns in that Jughead is correct. Its that Rugby league is just not on anybody's radar down here.  In London you get people talking about sports in the following order

  • Football
  • Rugby Union (England / 6 nations however, not so much club rugby)
  • Cricket (Again England, not so much club cricket)
  • NFL
  • NBA (not so much BBL, just the american teams)
  • Boxing
  • Rugby League \ Netball \ Ice Hocky

Where I work, we have sweepstakes on Football, Cricket, Six Nations, Superbowl right now. When I suggested Rugby League, you get blank looks.  You have to climb this ladder, and the only way you could possibly do it would be England winning the world cup, and then having an ashes series next year with at least one if not two games in London. Then you start a franchise London club (not broncos or skolars as too much baggage), buliding on the England teams success.

You're overlooking the point that RL being mostly confined to small Northern towns is part of the reason why RL is just not on anybody's radar in the south, and probably a big part.  The predominance of those towns in the top pro tiers conforms to the stereotype that RL is just a small time regional sport with limited appeal, because in the sports where that is demonstrably not true teams from bigger and better known places are predominant in their top pro tiers.

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19 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You're overlooking the point that RL being mostly confined to small Northern towns is part of the reason why RL is just not on anybody's radar in the south, and probably a big part.  The predominance of those towns in the top pro tiers conforms to the stereotype that RL is just a small time regional sport with limited appeal, because in the sports where that is demonstrably not true teams from bigger and better known places are predominant in their top pro tiers.

Let’s be honest, the game of RL is not even “on the radar” of people in the North.

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On 03/02/2022 at 12:13, Damien said:

Football is king in London. Vast swathes couldn't give a damn about RU either.

True, but that still leaves many thousands who do. Twick has hosted many double header club matches over the years with sellout crowds over 80,000, so on a different planet to RL interest levels sadly.

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IIRC sometime between 2000 and 2005 I recall reading an insightful 3 or 4 page article about RL in London in the monthly RL magazine.  I am sure that the article was written by an independent person and came to the conclusion that the game in London had received little support.  Perhaps somebody might be able to find and post the article and see if things have changed since then.

 

 

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So now we have 2 absolutely crucial posts to fill at the Broncos - head of youth plus head of commercial. These appointments - assuming there'll be replacements - ought to tell us a lot about the club's ambition. In both cases, any new hire will be starting behind the eight ball.

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1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

So now we have 2 absolutely crucial posts to fill at the Broncos - head of youth plus head of commercial. These appointments - assuming there'll be replacements - ought to tell us a lot about the club's ambition. In both cases, any new hire will be starting behind the eight ball.

Has the monkey gone? 

Whether it was his choice to go or Hughes' this kind of move, at this point in time, pretty much sums the club up tbh - actively work to drive people away, hand club contracts to your private business, orchestrate a move to another part of the city, then leave after one home game.

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"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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20 hours ago, Jughead said:

I don’t buy the “Londoners have never heard of small northern town” line. Broncos would kill for an average attendance of over 5,000 like Fourth Division Orient get. I don’t for one second believe that they get those sorts of crowds because football people have heard of small northern towns like Barrow, Chesterfield or have a particularly great knowledge of Port Vale and Stoke’s geographical make-up. People haven’t heard of Batley, Dewsbury or Swinton because Rugby League’s profile is so small, the profile of the game outside of Super League is non-existent and London do so little to build a reputable brand or an entertainment venue that people actually want to attend. I don’t believe people attend Dulwich Hamlet (who get massive crowds for their level) or Clapton (who have humongous crowds for essentially being park level football) have a particular knowledge of the towns of the clubs of their opponents or their standing in the footballing world and the majority attend for reasons unrelated to geography or club size. 

Like many of your recent posts, I have no idea, what point your are trying to make here.

You use about 200 words, without making clear, what you are trying to say nor drawing any specific conclusions.

You often refuse to answer direct questions, ignore points made by other posters during your glib responses and tend to repeat stuff you've said before even when your earlier comments are irrelevant to the post you attach your responses to.

These fora are provided to facilitate discussion, not to give untrammeled loudmouths free reign to spout acres of inane drivel for no other reason, than their own neurotic gratification. 

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3 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Like many of your recent posts, I have no idea, what point your are trying to make here.

You use about 200 words, without making clear, what you are trying to say nor drawing any specific conclusions.

You often refuse to answer direct questions, ignore points made by other posters during your glib responses and tend to repeat stuff you've said before even when your earlier comments are irrelevant to the post you attach your responses to.

These fora are provided to facilitate discussion, not to give untrammeled loudmouths free reign to spout acres of inane drivel for no other reason, than their own neurotic gratification. 

Say what you really free. Don’t sit on the fence. 

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13 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Say what you really free. Don’t sit on the fence. 

Thank you for providing another example of unintelligible guff. 

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Confirmation of Mr Milners departure from his won linked in page

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/james-milner-433093ab

Monkey Money GIF - Monkey Money Throw - Discover & Share GIFs

 I would be banned from this board if I posted what I am thinking

 

 

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When the pinch comes the common people will turn out to be more intelligent than the clever ones. I certainly hope so.

George Orwell
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You either own NFTs or women’s phone numbers but not both

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38 minutes ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Confirmation of Mr Milners departure from his won linked in page

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/james-milner-433093ab

Monkey Money GIF - Monkey Money Throw - Discover & Share GIFs

 I would be banned from this board if I posted what I am thinking

 

 

How long has the person been at the club? & why does it seem (on here at least) fans do not like what they have/have not done while at Broncos? 

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I am not sure how many people on the Forum are from London or nearby. If you are the most important thing you can do is go along and support one of the semi-pro or amateur teams here in any way you can. If we want RL to survive/thrive in London and the SE then we all need to play our part in what ever way we can (I've just sponsored to London Skolars players).

 

 

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7 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Has the monkey gone? 

Whether it was his choice to go or Hughes' this kind of move, at this point in time, pretty much sums the club up tbh - actively work to drive people away, hand club contracts to your private business, orchestrate a move to another part of the city, then leave after one home game.

Very strange time to go and to announce it as he did but who knows - walked or pushed! LB have the Chance to get a young marketing person who can work to engage the community - local Wimbledon residents were not aware of the move so maybe fresh eyes and mind will focus the attention. As has been said - entertainment inside the ground to keep kids involved and keep up with promos as better to have a high attendance with low admissions fee and product sales (food/drink/gear). Let’s see what happens next - or who next???

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On 09/02/2022 at 22:10, Big Picture said:

You're overlooking the point that RL being mostly confined to small Northern towns is part of the reason why RL is just not on anybody's radar in the south, and probably a big part.  The predominance of those towns in the top pro tiers conforms to the stereotype that RL is just a small time regional sport with limited appeal, because in the sports where that is demonstrably not true teams from bigger and better known places are predominant in their top pro tiers.

Everyone knows the sport at top level, and in terms of numbers involved, is of course mainly in the north, but this is not "confinement" and it is not in "small northern towns". The M62 contains cities like Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Liverpool, and Manchester, and many fans and players come from those cities.

The appeal is strong amongst fans and crowds do as well as union do in their geographical confinement to the midlands and south. Surely if you are to comment on history and structure you need to do some research. You need to work out how a tiny ex mining town like Castleford can produce the players they have produced and attracted the crowds they have attracted despite their small population of 40,000.

I appreciate your desire for the game to push "expansion" but sadly we have been there and done that and it doesn't work without a magic wand. Take the formation of the Sheffield Eagles a fairly short road trip from Castleford,  have a look at how this "Big City club" eventually failed and collapsed whilst Castleford continued to thrive despite what you see as a serious handicap. 

As for "limited appeal" televised Rugby League has a countrywide appeal, and is shown countrywide good numbers so the idea rugby minded sports persons away from the north have no interest in the game is wrong, the viewing figures and the TV deals say otherwise. With respect you could not be more wrong here. 

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"As for "limited appeal" televised Rugby League has a countrywide appeal, and is shown countrywide good numbers so the idea rugby minded sports persons away from the north have no interest in the game is wrong, the viewing figures and the TV deals say otherwise. With respect you could not be more wrong here. "

Do you live down here (London). If you randomly asked 10 people who are the RL world champions / Super League champions, you would be lucky if 2 people out of 10 could tell you. They also could not tell you outside of England who the major RL Countries are, (they would assume similar to Union).

9/10 would be able to tell you who play in the 6 nations, who the World Champions are, how bad england was vs scotland last week.

I still think the key point is that if you put a club union game between 2 top Union clubs, you get 72K if marketed correctly (a sell out) like Quins vs Saints did at twickenham (this just a regular season game).  League can't even that match that for Magic weekend with 6 games and 12 teams playing.

Put Wigan vs Saints at old trafford for a regular season game and see if you match the 72K, I doubt you would get north of 30K if you was lucky, and this is the basic fact here.

 

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21 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

So now we have 2 absolutely crucial posts to fill at the Broncos - head of youth plus head of commercial. These appointments - assuming there'll be replacements - ought to tell us a lot about the club's ambition. In both cases, any new hire will be starting behind the eight ball.

I hope whoever they get likes a challenge.......................

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20 minutes ago, crashmon said:

down here (London). If you randomly asked 10 people who are the RL world champions / Super League champions, you would be lucky if 2 people out of 10 could tell you. 9/10 would be able to tell you who play in the 6 nations, who the World Champions are, how bad england was vs scotland last week.

Having half my family living in London (Tottenham) I can tell you non of them have any interest in Rugby Union, Rugby League and come to that soccer, albeit I bet they have heard of the likes of all the top soccer clubs. Being able to stay with them when the big RL games have been on down there over the years has been very convenient. The televised four nations certainly convey the attractions of RU to people all over the country as do the televised Challenge cup, Superleague, world cup, and the big RL test games against Aussie and New Zealand. There is of course a great awareness of both codes amongst any "rugby" fan and sporting fan per se, and many enjoy playing and watching both games.

Of course TV is good at noting the big sporting events and the BBC broadcast to the whole country and kindly report to the whole country on the big RU internationals, the big RL internationals and the  Challenge Cup final. At club level both codes are constantly open to viewing to sports fans all over the country Maybe the people you and BP encounter don't have TV's or don't care about sport at all and "switch off".... 

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1 hour ago, crashmon said:

"As for "limited appeal" televised Rugby League has a countrywide appeal, and is shown countrywide good numbers so the idea rugby minded sports persons away from the north have no interest in the game is wrong, the viewing figures and the TV deals say otherwise. With respect you could not be more wrong here. "

Do you live down here (London). If you randomly asked 10 people who are the RL world champions / Super League champions, you would be lucky if 2 people out of 10 could tell you. They also could not tell you outside of England who the major RL Countries are, (they would assume similar to Union).

9/10 would be able to tell you who play in the 6 nations, who the World Champions are, how bad england was vs scotland last week.

I still think the key point is that if you put a club union game between 2 top Union clubs, you get 72K if marketed correctly (a sell out) like Quins vs Saints did at twickenham (this just a regular season game).  League can't even that match that for Magic weekend with 6 games and 12 teams playing.

Put Wigan vs Saints at old trafford for a regular season game and see if you match the 72K, I doubt you would get north of 30K if you was lucky, and this is the basic fact here.

And if you tell those 10 that the leading English RL clubs are located in St Helens, Warrington and Wigan that wouldn't impress them much would it?  Would it just confirm the negative stereotypes they've heard about the game (if they've heard anything at all about it that is) instead?

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17 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

And if you tell those 10 that the leading English RL clubs are located in St Helens, Warrington and Wigan that wouldn't impress them much would it?  Would it just confirm the negative stereotypes they've heard about the game (if they've heard anything at all about it that is) instead?

Are people that impressed by Worcester, Gloucester and Exeter then? 

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1 hour ago, Jughead said:

Are people that impressed by Worcester, Gloucester and Exeter then? 

Remember this tread is about RL in London, so this is what we are focussing on right now....  Based on the big game attendances below, I would say that Quins pretty much sell out twickenham regardless of who they play.

27 December 2008 Harlequins     26 – 26     Leicester Tigers   Attendance: 50,000
27 December 2009 Harlequins     20 – 21     London Wasps       Attendance: 76,716
27 December 2010 Harlequins     28 – 18     London Irish       Attendance: 74,212
27 December 2011 Harlequins     11 – 19     Saracens           Attendance: 82,000
29 December 2012 Harlequins     26 – 15     London Irish       Attendance: 82,000
28 December 2013 Harlequins     22 – 6         Exeter Chiefs      Attendance: 74,827
27 December 2014 Harlequins     25 – 30     Northampton Saints Attendance: 82,000
27 December 2015 Harlequins     39 – 39     Gloucester         Attendance: 70,718
27 December 2016 Harlequins     28 – 24     Gloucester         Attendance: 77,567
30 December 2017 Harlequins     50 – 21     Northampton Saints Attendance: 77,825
29 December 2018 Harlequins     20 – 13     Wasps              Attendance: 82,000
28 December 2019 Harlequins     30 – 30     Leicester Tigers   Attendance: 75,500
27 December 2021 Harlequins     41 – 27     Northampton Saints Attendance: 72,785

What would be interesting would be if they played Sale in the Big game, that probably would have an hit on attendances.

IMHO the only was you grow the game is by Internationals played in London, and that is not going to happen, RL International game is a joke when compared to Union

 

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