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This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce


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3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

It's a sports entertainment business for accuracy.

It's not like it'll be appearing with Simon Cowell any time soon.

 

Semantics tbh, or rather a subsection. Simon Cowell's latest tv show is as much a competitor for viewers and audience as anything else for Professional Rugby League. 

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9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Sport is what kids play on school playing fields and enthusiasts do in their spare time.

Oh come on. 

This insistence on trying to be smart is tiring. 

Rugby League is a sport. Your post is just plain wrong. 

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9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Semantics tbh, or rather a subsection. Simon Cowell's latest tv show is as much a competitor for viewers and audience as anything else for Professional Rugby League. 

I thought semantics was what your post was for Tommy.

Labelling where RL lies in the compeitive world.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

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Just now, Dave T said:

Oh come on. 

This insistence on trying to be smart is tiring. 

Rugby League is a sport. Your post is just plain wrong. 

Rugby League is a sport yes, played by children and young people, even a few "masters" for recreational purposes.

Professional Rugby League is an entertainment business and funds itself on that premise.

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1 minute ago, Oxford said:

I thought semantics was what your post was for Tommy.

Labelling where RL lies in the compeitive world.

As I said past word 2 Oxford, a subsection.

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14 hours ago, paul hicks said:

indeed and i think last time they made an attempt to play a proper professional international there was it not played at Windsor park which of course is in an area very unsafe for certain sections of the community. i to have been over many times as i have relatives there and in surrounding towns . i think when you see the club football there then the games that cross the communities tend to be very how shall i put it  partisan and unpleasant as i found out the other week when attending with a Cliftonville supporter of many years .  certainly make for plenty of police overtime .

a thing about sport there seems to be its just about  all part time so who knows how a full time sport would be funded so its equal with other teams in say super league .

Thats an interesting thought too.. There is going to have to be work put in to getting those with money (and there are a lot in and around Belfast for sure) to invest, even the larger corporations who are investing into the city. Part of that, you would assume, would be to make sure that it crosses the communities which is much harder than it seems.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Rugby League is a sport yes, played by children and young people, even a few "masters" for recreational purposes.

Professional Rugby League is an entertainment business and funds itself on that premise.

Just doubling down on a wrong post doesn't change it to being right 🤣

Your last line doesn't mean Pro RL isn't sport. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Just doubling down on a wrong post doesn't change it to being right 🤣

Your last line doesn't mean Pro RL isn't sport. 

19th century thinking doesn't make it correct for the 21st century. Says a lot really!

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

19th century thinking doesn't make it correct for the 21st century. Says a lot really!

I'm not sure what kind of thinking it is that suggests that what we watch every week isn't sport. 

Nobody is claiming it isn't a business. It absolutely is. 

Only one person is being 'edgy' though and making then claim that Pro RL isn't sport. 

Edited by Dave T
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13 minutes ago, RP London said:

Thats an interesting thought too.. There is going to have to be work put in to getting those with money (and there are a lot in and around Belfast for sure) to invest, even the larger corporations who are investing into the city. Part of that, you would assume, would be to make sure that it crosses the communities which is much harder than it seems.

Well it is for sports and clubs entrenched in the city, and NI generally, that have decades of baggage. For new sports, such as Ice Hockey and the Belfast Giants, its actually fairly easy and a real unique selling point.

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19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

As I said past word 2 Oxford, a subsection.

Were there more than two words in your post?

I suppose that it should be the word business we take you to town about.

Business is for profit, caveat emptor and seeing people coming and RL falls & fails on all 3 counts.

Unless it's a sports business loss leader of course!

I don't think it's 19th Century thinking that's the problem either Tommy it's more buying into 21st century snake oil where the issue lies.

 

 

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

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19 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well it is for sports and clubs entrenched in the city, and NI generally, that have decades of baggage. For new sports, such as Ice Hockey and the Belfast Giants, its actually fairly easy and a real unique selling point.

I think "fairly easy" is simplifying it massively. Form the outside you may think that but they did a huge amount of work to get to this point. They were fortunate that the Odyssey arena is fairly neutral ground, as mentioned earlier if we were to share a ground with someone we have to be aware of the impact that would have, so in that sense the Giants were lucky. However, pre starting and very much in their early days they have worked hard within Belfast and Northern Ireland to push the neutrality and the "safe space" that is the ice hockey. This is not easy and trying to keep out certain types that would have happily taken it one way or the other was hard work for them.

Now that it is established as it is it is much easier yes. They have banned flags that have any national leanings or can give away a religion, they have banned football shirts etc too. Little things that are easy now but are only easy on the back of all the hard work they put in at the beginning. 

It is, definitely, a great selling point though and one we would need IMHO

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5 minutes ago, RP London said:

I think "fairly easy" is simplifying it massively. Form the outside you may think that but they did a huge amount of work to get to this point. They were fortunate that the Odyssey arena is fairly neutral ground, as mentioned earlier if we were to share a ground with someone we have to be aware of the impact that would have, so in that sense the Giants were lucky.we However, pre starting and very much in their early days they have worked hard within Belfast and Northern Ireland to push the neutrality and the "safe space" that is the ice hockey. This is not easy and trying to keep out certain types that would have happily taken it one way or the other was hard work for them.

Now that it is established as it is it is much easier yes. They have banned flags that have any national leanings or can give away a religion, they have banned football shirts etc too. Little things that are easy now but are only easy on the back of all the hard work they put in at the beginning. 

It is, definitely, a great selling point though and one we would need IMHO

It's not simplifying it. Yes they had good fortune with the Odyssey but you are shifting the parameters there to their success and what they became. For new sports it is easy to be neutral if they want and that was my point. The Belfast Giants did nothing novel in banning flags and football shirts.

American Football has done similar at times. I got funding from Belfast City Council for a RL festival precisely from a cross community angle so I know it can be done. This stuff happens all the time across all areas and it's certainly not simplifying anything.

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's not simplifying it. Yes they had good fortune with the Odyssey but you are shifting the parameters there to their success and what they became. For new sports it is easy to be neutral if they want and that was my point. The Belfast Giants did nothing novel in banning flags and football shirts.

American Football has done similar at times. I got funding from Belfast City Council for a RL festival precisely from a cross community angle so I know it can be done. This stuff happens all the time across all areas and it's certainly not simplifying anything.

Apologies I may have used the wrong word by saying "simplified" but saying that it has been "fairly easy" for them I felt was denigrating the hard work that had been done by those involved to get to the point where the easy stuff like banning the flags etc worked (you can ban lots of things but that doesn't mean that the end result is what you want, you can see that in all crowds etc). However, with the explanation above I understand what you meant by "fairly easy".

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10 minutes ago, RP London said:

Apologies I may have used the wrong word by saying "simplified" but saying that it has been "fairly easy" for them I felt was denigrating the hard work that had been done by those involved to get to the point where the easy stuff like banning the flags etc worked (you can ban lots of things but that doesn't mean that the end result is what you want, you can see that in all crowds etc). However, with the explanation above I understand what you meant by "fairly easy".

No worries, I was probably coming at it from a different perspective. Reading back yours and Paul's posts I see where you are coming from more and you do make an awfully valid point about the Odyssey. That singlehandedly made the Belfast Giants more neutral than anything else could. The Belfast Giants could have done everything else they did but if they were sited at the Dundonald Ice Bowl (presuming it had the stands etc for that) then it just wouldn't have worked. RL at the elite level would face the same issue without an Odyssey to play at.

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Posted (edited)
On 07/06/2022 at 15:45, Big Picture said:

I'm glad you recognize that in the case of franchised league being set up every owner would have to pay the same franchise fee so as to have a level playing field.  I see a couple of problems with your example though.

First (and this a serious question), how many of the traditional clubs would be both willing and able to pay the 5 million £ fee you have in mind?

Second, 5 million £ is far too low for a major pro league.  It's a minor league level franchise fee, not a major league level fee.

The cheapest expansion franchise fee for an established major league is the 325 million US$ MLS charges, and the cost of a major league franchise goes from there up to the 5.3 billion US$ (4.25 billion £) which Todd Boehly is paying to take over Chelsea.

Six years ago next month Forbes valued the top 20 minor league baseball teams at an average of 37.5 million US$ (29.837 million £) and valued the Sacramento River Cats at 49 million U$ (38.987 million £).  That average was almost 35% higher than three years earlier, so the values are bound to be higher now.   Your suggestion of 5 million £ might be too rich for any of the traditional clubs, but it's definitely a minor league fee and not a major league fee.

 

To put a price on a franchise it must have a value established - so when a long established entity becomes a franchise the value is the same for all in this hyperthetical situation with RL, although each club behind the franchise will have a different worth established over decades. It is right to charge Leeds the same as Wakefield for example, despite the parent being widely apart in valuation. We must be selling a franchise for a defined area at a fixed price irrespective of who buys it. Should the franchised be lost then the buyer would pay the seller the at that times valuation with a £5m min ( and the failed franchise should get the £5m refunded.)

If a business cannot raise £5m then why should it sit at the pinnacle of the sport - especially when the £5m is secure. I would love it to be greater but people are already saying we wont get 14 franchises at that cost, I feel we will but at the expense of a couple in the current 12

 

Edited by sweaty craiq
poor wording
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8 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

To put a price on a franchise it must have a value established - so when a long established entity becomes a franchise the value is the same for all in this hyperthetical situation with RL, although each club behind the franchise will have a different worth established over decades. It is not right to value Leeds the same as Wakefield for example, what we must do here is as a new non sporting franchise business would operate by selling a franchise for a defined area at a fixed price irrespective of who buys it. Should the franchised be lost then the buyer would pay the seller the at that times valuation with a £5m min ( and the failed franchise should get the £5m refunded.)

If a business cannot raise £5m then why should it sit at the pinnacle of the sport - especially when the £5m is secure. I would love it to be greater but people are already saying we wont get 14 franchises at that cost, I feel we will but at the expense of a couple in the current 12

 

what you are buying is the opportunity, what you then do with the opportunity is up to you, some will do better than others for sure. To work out how much the franchise is worth you would need to look at what you are being offered, the help from the RFL, the marketing etc.. I assume part of the cost of a franchise for the NFL includes the fact that merch etc is centralised with centralised contracts with manufacturers and a central store (as well as your own) they have TV and NFL marketing etc etc.. the RFL need to offer something for that £5m and they need to work out what that would be, then its up to the market to work out whether that is a worthwhile investment.

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1 hour ago, RP London said:

what you are buying is the opportunity, what you then do with the opportunity is up to you, some will do better than others for sure. To work out how much the franchise is worth you would need to look at what you are being offered, the help from the RFL, the marketing etc.. I assume part of the cost of a franchise for the NFL includes the fact that merch etc is centralised with centralised contracts with manufacturers and a central store (as well as your own) they have TV and NFL marketing etc etc.. the RFL need to offer something for that £5m and they need to work out what that would be, then its up to the market to work out whether that is a worthwhile investment.

The main offer is a £x million tv deal over y years, and the right to play at the highest level - the criteria decides who gets the opportunity should we have demand that outstrips supply, and if we do, do we then extend supply?

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5 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

the criteria decides who gets the opportunity

I'd be astonished if this was as simple as that.

They'll look at which clubs they want rid of and find criteria that supply the answer they want. Then they'll shift the money supply to those they wanted all along. There'll be a bit of wrangling  and then it'll all be over.

When the dust clears there'll be a few of us leaving RL forever.

I simplified this for brevity.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

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11 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

The main offer is a £x million tv deal over y years, and the right to play at the highest level - the criteria decides who gets the opportunity should we have demand that outstrips supply, and if we do, do we then extend supply?

you always want demand to outstrip supply so no you dont extend it just for the sake of it. You want to be turning people down so that when you decide the time is right to extend the supply they are back bidding along with some more people that now like the idea after seeing that it is popular and growing. 

I think the RFL will need to offer more than just a TV deal and a "oooh look your playing Super League" to be honest.

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38 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

The main offer is a £x million tv deal over y years, and the right to play at the highest level - the criteria decides who gets the opportunity should we have demand that outstrips supply, and if we do, do we then extend supply?

I do like your interpretation of this.

Given the bids for the Magic this would be interesting to see if there is a market. I don't imagine IMG do anything decisive without a lot of groundwork and market research.

It'll be interesting to see how they go about it and if there is a market out there for franchises.

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:

#CorbynwasrightandFordesaidso!  Trusscouldn'tcareless v Keith AWOL Tory vast majority in the making.

 

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49 minutes ago, RP London said:

You always want demand to outstrip supply so no you don' extend it just for the sake of it. You want to be turning people down so that when you decide the time is right to extend the supply they are back bidding along with some more people that now like the idea after seeing that it is popular and growing. 

I think the RFL will need to offer more than just a TV deal and a "oooh look your playing Super League" to be honest.

I don't get this at all.

The reality is that many established clubs  have been up for grabs for years and rich businessmen come along and buy the clubs for a token sum and then enjoy putting their money into the said club. As it stands now a very rich person could perhaps take on the Bulls simply by paying a fiver for them.  Nige would let them have it if it meant the new owner would be happy to put a couple of £Million or more a year into the club in a quest to return to Superleague.  Widnes is a club that a rich RL fan may want to take over for a tenner and pay Millions to improve the team and get the fans back.

As for Dublin if someone wanted to spend Millions there, could they not just buy out West Wales and move the club to a ground in Dublin and spend their Millions on improving the team, gradually going up through the leagues? The idea someone in the game, say the RFL/SL create a "Franchise" with an SL guarantee and sell it for £Millions seems like utter nonsense.

It's supply and demand, and there are already many more clubs wanting a rich owner to take them over than there are rich people to buy them.  Rich people who do but them tens to be Northeners.  Didn't Cornwall cost Mr. Perez a tenner??

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30 minutes ago, steve oates said:

I don't get this at all.

The reality is that many established clubs  have been up for grabs for years and rich businessmen come along and buy the clubs for a token sum and then enjoy putting their money into the said club. As it stands now a very rich person could perhaps take on the Bulls simply by paying a fiver for them.  Nige would let them have it if it meant the new owner would be happy to put a couple of £Million or more a year into the club in a quest to return to Superleague.  Widnes is a club that a rich RL fan may want to take over for a tenner and pay Millions to improve the team and get the fans back.

As for Dublin if someone wanted to spend Millions there, could they not just buy out West Wales and move the club to a ground in Dublin and spend their Millions on improving the team, gradually going up through the leagues? The idea someone in the game, say the RFL/SL create a "Franchise" with an SL guarantee and sell it for £Millions seems like utter nonsense.

It's supply and demand, and there are already many more clubs wanting a rich owner to take them over than there are rich people to buy them.  Rich people who do but them tens to be Northeners.  Didn't Cornwall cost Mr. Perez a tenner??

Remembering this is a  hypothetical franchise situation, then Billy Rich man would currently have to pump millions in without any guarantee of winning a SL spot and get bored doing so due to potentially making the comp a non event - this is what happened at TW imo so by the time they were in SL  Millions had been wasted getting there. There are not many Argyles about.

Now if you allow said Multi millionaire to put the millions into a club that competes in a franchised top tier, knowing that the £5m can be recouped, the low entry point and guaranteed highest quality games would be much more attractive to philanthropists with no club loyalty, as we see in Premier League football.

To understand this you must understand that the mindset of a billionaire is very different to that of you or I

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1 hour ago, RP London said:

you always want demand to outstrip supply so no you dont extend it just for the sake of it. You want to be turning people down so that when you decide the time is right to extend the supply they are back bidding along with some more people that now like the idea after seeing that it is popular and growing. 

I think the RFL will need to offer more than just a TV deal and a "oooh look your playing Super League" to be honest.

Even if that demand ticked all boxes?

 

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