Give Us A Proper WCC

[Welshleaguelover]

3 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

The last time Saints played in the WCC we were well in the game, I think we lost by 8.

That Saints team had a left edge centre/wing partnership of James Bentley / Matty Costello (I think because we were missing Percy, Grace and Coote).  The bench also had Joseph Paulo and Aaron Smith who wouldn't get a game for us now.  It was the first game under Woolf and I would say we are now better quipped to cope with NRL intensity levels.

I don't think Saints would win but I think the talk of nosediving standards and getting battered is overdone also.

Players like Welsby, Makinson, Lomax, Dodd, Walmsley, Roby, Lees, Knowles etc would be excellent players in any generation IMO and constant referencing of poor standards is pretty disrespectful to them.  There arent many weak links in that Saints side but clearly nobody would argue Penrith aren't the best side in the world.

I mean no disrespect to any of the players you mentioned. They are all good players.

I just think we're lying to ourselves if we think this current Saints team is anywhere near as good as the top teams in the NRL.

[Welshleaguelover]

Also, Welsby slipped my mind. He'd definitely be in a Parramatta or Penrith 17. Top player.

[Dunbar]

I would like to see a men's and women's World Club Challenge each year.

The women's game may be less competitive than the men at the moment but improvement comes from being exposed to higher levels and knowing what you have to aspire to.

[Madrileño]

On 26/09/2022 at 05:56, UTK said:

There's no tradition in the major Australian sports around International club championships, just as there is no tradition with P&R. There are a whole host of both geographical and cultural reasons why this is the case but it is not something that is likely to change.

 

The A league clubs have been playing in the Asian Champions League consistently for the last 15 years. They also participate in the AFC Cup for teams just below Champions League level.

The Australian pro rugby teams also compete in an international competition. (And have done since the 1990s).

Obviously Melbourne Rules teams don't have any international competition, but that is because the game only exists professionally in 1 country. 

[UTK]

5 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

The A league clubs have been playing in the Asian Champions League consistently for the last 15 years. They also participate in the AFC Cup for teams just below Champions League level.

The Australian pro rugby teams also compete in an international competition. (And have done since the 1990s).

Obviously Melbourne Rules teams don't have any international competition, but that is because the game only exists professionally in 1 country. 

RU is just in an International League as opposed to an International Club Championship (ie top of multiple different leagues compete against each other), the NRL is effectively the same as an International league but just much less evenly split. 

Neither Soccer or RU would be considered major codes in Australia anyway in terms of their domestic leagues, National teams are different story but the A-League and Super Rugby aren't relevant at all down here.

[Madrileño]

1 minute ago, UTK said:

RU is just in an International League as opposed to an International Club Championship (ie top of multiple different leagues compete against each other), the NRL is effectively the same as an International league but just much less evenly split. 

Neither Soccer or RU would be considered major codes in Australia anyway in terms of their domestic leagues, National teams are different story but the A-League and Super Rugby aren't relevant at all down here.

OK. So you are basically talking about AFL then. 

[UTK]

2 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

OK. So you are basically talking about AFL then. 

Yes, Cricket and AFL alongside the NRL as the unanimously agreed major sporting codes in Australia do not have strong traditions regarding International Club Championships.

Even our WCC has been extremely inconsistent in its existence in Australia, it's only been hosted here 5 times since 1976, there is simply no precedent for cultural significance of a competition of this type occurring in Australia.

[Madrileño]

7 minutes ago, UTK said:

 

Even our WCC has been extremely inconsistent in its existence in Australia, it's only been hosted here 5 times since 1976, there is simply no precedent for cultural significance of a competition of this type occurring in Australia.

I wouldn't dispute that. There are a few posters on here saying that the NRL teams "not taking it seriously" is not true, but it does seem that even when the NRL side has travelled to the UK, they quite often (though not always I should add) seem to treat it as a kind of pre-season hit out, where they field a few young players and go at less than 100%. It rarely has the air of a real head-to-head between the champions of the only 2 professional leagues in the world. 

[UTK]

15 minutes ago, Madrileño said:

I wouldn't dispute that. There are a few posters on here saying that the NRL teams "not taking it seriously" is not true, but it does seem that even when the NRL side has travelled to the UK, they quite often (though not always I should add) seem to treat it as a kind of pre-season hit out, where they field a few young players and go at less than 100%. It rarely has the air of a real head-to-head between the champions of the only 2 professional leagues in the world. 

I think the reality of the situation is a bit of a nuanced position, are they preparing for the game in a way that reflects how they prepared for the GF they won the previous year - no, but you can't really do that because it's always going to be a different squad and it's at the start of the season for both teams so they participate at a lower level of cohesion/fitness than they would at in a GF.

Once NRL teams go over there do they go over with a strong intention to win and play to the best of their capability - I would say yes they definitely do, the game might not hold the weight of a Final but any Champion team is going to have a strong desire to win every game they can as that is simply the requisite mentality of becoming NRL/SL Champions in the first place.

[UTK]

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/news-2022-penrith-panthers-set-to-host-world-club-challenge/1c84ecfb-520d-4c1d-b837-e0b345b23e83

Looks like this confirms it - Saints to come across and play Penrith in 2023.

[Madrileño]

2 hours ago, UTK said:

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/news-2022-penrith-panthers-set-to-host-world-club-challenge/1c84ecfb-520d-4c1d-b837-e0b345b23e83

Looks like this confirms it - Saints to come across and play Penrith in 2023.

Great.

This should give us a reasonably clear picture of how the top end of Super League sits compared to the NRL in terms of level. (I think we all know where the bottom end sits). 

[gingerjon]

7 hours ago, UTK said:

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/news-2022-penrith-panthers-set-to-host-world-club-challenge/1c84ecfb-520d-4c1d-b837-e0b345b23e83

Looks like this confirms it - Saints to come across and play Penrith in 2023.

Nothing is confirmed there and we've had equivalent positive words before.

If it does happen, the suggestion there is for the first weekend in March it looks like.

[Saint Toppy]

9 hours ago, UTK said:

https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/news-2022-penrith-panthers-set-to-host-world-club-challenge/1c84ecfb-520d-4c1d-b837-e0b345b23e83

Looks like this confirms it - Saints to come across and play Penrith in 2023.

It confirms nothing, if I was Saints i'd tell them to shove it unless they're prepared to make it worth their while financially.

Penrith will play in it only if its played in Aus and only if its the week before their NRL season starts (which is a couple of weeks into the SL season), and they've already said they're treating as just a pre-season friendly and will play their youngsters.

This is no change at all from their previous stance, it all has to be on their terms and they have virtually no respect for the game & what it represents at all. Their stance is a complete contrast to clubs like the Roosters, Storm, Bunnies & Bronco's who actually respect SL and treat the WCC seriously. The Penrith pussies are just making a mockery of it !!!!

[Mr Frisky]

On 26/09/2022 at 19:12, Welshleaguelover said:

I mean no disrespect to any of the players you mentioned. They are all good players.

I just think we're lying to ourselves if we think this current Saints team is anywhere near as good as the top teams in the NRL.

I think that's why they are playing the game mate - to see who is the best.

[doc]

Well, it's either a contest between two championship teams, or its a friendly for kids to gain experience. 

So which one?

[UTK]

21 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

It confirms nothing, if I was Saints i'd tell them to shove it unless they're prepared to make it worth their while financially.

Penrith will play in it only if its played in Aus and only if its the week before their NRL season starts (which is a couple of weeks into the SL season), and they've already said they're treating as just a pre-season friendly and will play their youngsters.

This is no change at all from their previous stance, it all has to be on their terms and they have virtually no respect for the game & what it represents at all. Their stance is a complete contrast to clubs like the Roosters, Storm, Bunnies & Bronco's who actually respect SL and treat the WCC seriously. The Penrith pussies are just making a mockery of it !!!!

The WCC has been played 5 times in Australia since 1976, if we want it to be taken seriously then it needs to rotate between the two hemispheres so that it gains any sort of recognition in AUS/NZ. The reality is it doesn't represent much here because it basically doesn't exist here due to the monopoly SL clubs have had on the competition since its inception, I admire the like of the Roosters/Storm etc but the competition hasn't earnt any mantle that requires reverence by Penrith.

After the WC it can only really be played late in pre-season, most of the Penrith squad will be on their mandated extended break due to participating in the WC and to be honest I don't see it as at all unreasonable for them to not want to send their squad back to England after they've all spent most of the off-season there.

I agree that it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea if Saints are going to be negatively impacted financially and their costs should be covered if possible by the earnings from the game itself.

[Mr Frisky]

7 minutes ago, UTK said:

The WCC has been played 5 times in Australia since 1976, if we want it to be taken seriously then it needs to rotate between the two hemispheres so that it gains any sort of recognition in AUS/NZ. The reality is it doesn't represent much here because it basically doesn't exist here due to the monopoly SL clubs have had on the competition since its inception, I admire the like of the Roosters/Storm etc but the competition hasn't earnt any mantle that requires reverence by Penrith.

After the WC it can only really be played late in pre-season, most of the Penrith squad will be on their mandated extended break due to participating in the WC and to be honest I don't see it as at all unreasonable for them to not want to send their squad back to England after they've all spent most of the off-season there.

I agree that it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea if Saints are going to be negatively impacted financially and their costs should be covered if possible by the earnings from the game itself.

Its usually played in the UK as SL clubs can usually make it work financially- the Aussies usually don't want to host it.

However over the past few years both Roosters and Melbourne have had season best home crowds against the SL champions. 

At the end of the day if an NRL team lose and they say they didn't take it seriously then the record books still show who were the winners and the best team in the world that year.

When Bradford destroyed Penrith 20 years ago the record books show a Bradford win as the best team and the record books show Penrith have never been classed as the best Rugby team in the world. If they want to be then they need to beat a very very good Saints team next year - yes they should do it but if they take Saints lightly they won't.

[UTK]

1 hour ago, Mr Frisky said:

Its usually played in the UK as SL clubs can usually make it work financially- the Aussies usually don't want to host it.

However over the past few years both Roosters and Melbourne have had season best home crowds against the SL champions. 

At the end of the day if an NRL team lose and they say they didn't take it seriously then the record books still show who were the winners and the best team in the world that year.

When Bradford destroyed Penrith 20 years ago the record books show a Bradford win as the best team and the record books show Penrith have never been classed as the best Rugby team in the world. If they want to be then they need to beat a very very good Saints team next year - yes they should do it but if they take Saints lightly they won't.

I'm didn't intend to say teams don't take it seriously, I completely agree that's just a rubbish excuse tossed up when an NRL team loses. Every team and player participating is committing fully to obtain a win from the match.

What I meant is that it doesn't come across as overly important to the general public and fanbase here, which is why you haven't seen Penrith attempting to move mountains to make it happen over the last 2 years. Good attendances occur because it's such a rare match to have over here and provides something different to the usual NRL lineup which is awesome. If it becomes a regular rotating fixture it'll become much more noteworthy as AUS/NZ will get to regularly watch and attend, whereas at the moment only die-hards will watch matches in England due to the terrible time zone differences for broadcast.

As for who will win I will be supporting Saints heavily and wouldn't sniff at their chances. Unfortunately you do get the negative of not maintaining the same squad and indeed on this iteration a different coach entirely. Would be fantastic to see the likes of Welsby and Dodd stamp their names in as superstars of the this generation with big performances in a matchup such as this.

Edited October 25, 2022 by UTK

[Sports Prophet]

A Superbowl style contest between the Southern and Northern Divisional Champions 2 weeks after their respective GFs is the only event that would truly demonstrate the best club in the world annually.

Anything pre-season the following year is an exhibition match as far as I’m concerned.

[Saint Toppy]

3 hours ago, UTK said:

which is why you haven't seen Penrith attempting to move mountains to make it happen over the last 2 years.

Move mountains 

Last year it was the Covid excuse (even though their players were free to travel to the UK), this year its "our players will be tired from the WC" excuse. 

Penrith are trying to make it sound like they're pushing to play this game, but the reality is they have next to no interest in it and see it just as an incovenience. They'll play but only if they get everything their own way. Gus Gould's dislike for everything SL and British RL still lingers at the Penrith pussies even though he's long gone !!!

[gingerjon]

3 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

A Superbowl style contest between the Southern and Northern Divisional Champions 2 weeks after their respective GFs is the only event that would truly demonstrate the best club in the world annually.

Not worth sacrificing our international programme for.

[Saint Toppy]

On 26/09/2022 at 19:12, Welshleaguelover said:

I mean no disrespect to any of the players you mentioned. They are all good players.

I just think we're lying to ourselves if we think this current Saints team is anywhere near as good as the top teams in the NRL.

That Roosters team that Saints played in their last WCC game was as dominant in the NRL at that time as the current Panthers team is (if not more so because there were several teams at the top of their games around that time). Saints dominated for large parts of that game and bombed several try scoring chances to take the game out of reach of the Roosters. Ultimately they were undone by a piece of individual brilliance by Keary that turned the game in their favour.

Trent Robinson even said post match that the game was as tough and close as any they played in the NRL.

The only thing that would hold top SL clubs like Saints back from probably being able to compete week after week against the best NRL teams is the lack of quality depth in the squad. They can probably put out a 1st choice 17 to match anyone but when injuries come into play thats when the NRL teams have they edge. Their SC means they can have top quality players sat in reserve, where as SL clubs don't, they rely mostly on their youngsters to make up the squad depth.

[Spidey]

NRL doing their own thing again

[Spidey]

English champions St Helens would be invited to compete, meaning there would be 18 participants once the Dolphins are factored in. It would allow the Super League champions to test themselves in a meaningful way outside the traditional World Club Challenge, 

[Sports Prophet]

8 minutes ago, Spidey said:

NRL doing their own thing again

There is no obligation to do anything else pre-season, so why not?

I don’t see this eventuating though.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Sports Prophet