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Who will have an A licence and why?


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1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

How many junior clubs are we talking about to supply an academy? There must surely be a theoretical number there.

I suspect 2 isn't deemed enough.

 

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

How many junior clubs are we talking about to supply an academy? There must surely be a theoretical number there.

I suspect 2 isn't deemed enough.

It’s difficult & I’m not sure what the answer is but community clubs in some areas would be decimated if every club who wanted to was able to run an a academy,the stark facts are that a large percentage of academy players not offered pro contracts don’t return to the community game.

 

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1 minute ago, bobbruce said:

Housing

Thanks, shame loved the atmosphere there. I love looking at then and now photographs.

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6 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

So the second paragraph is just agreeing with me. And thats why I said only Wakefield I think can jump out of the teams we have now because they will have the infrastructure to do it.

No, you said winning things. I'm saying that has little to do with it.

Spending up to the cap counts for nothing if you aren't doing the stuff I said in my first paragraph

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16 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

So the second paragraph is just agreeing with me. And thats why I said only Wakefield I think can jump out of the teams we have now because they will have the infrastructure to do it.

Their building 1 stand.

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17 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Leigh are probably part of the reason clubs like Fev York and Bulls support IMG proposals. How can they attract people if they know Leigh or one other club will dope the league and there is naff all they can do. 

You have put together a fantastic team and it got you probably an average of 3k , not really sustainable or growth model for the game is it.

 

20 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

The point wasnt about Leigh, which I know you find difficult, it was about everyone else. It was about attracting fans to games where they could never win and no club doing all the right things could ever win when one club is dopped. 

Yes I will still have the same response, because Toulouse doing it creates the same problem. (Or maybe now that they know they will be in SL they won’t have to). You have become even more narrow minded about the wider game since Leigh bought promotion. 

Are you all bloddy there in the head, my response quoting Leigh is simply because it was the opening word in your post and the manner you wrote it, keep of the Sangria mate it is doing you no good.

Edited by Harry Stottle
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7 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

 

It’s difficult & I’m not sure what the answer is but community clubs in some areas would be decimated if every club who wanted to was able to run an a academy,the stark facts are that a large percentage of academy players not offered pro contracts don’t return to the community game.

 

This gets mentionee out, and it is true, but it also completely ignores the fact that a large percentage of community kids drop out after u18s anyway. Very few kids generally go on to open age. I'm not sure the percentages would be any different or worse when it comes to players staying on past u18s whether they are community players or those leaving the pro ranks.

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20 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Just to side track the debate, what happened with Knowsley Road. Was the land used for housing or something else? 

Housing. I have a relative who lives on Newlove Avenue (which was named after Paul). 

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11 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

It’s up to the rest of the clubs to improve their academy set ups to match the best teams, then youngsters will have a genuine choice of who to sign for. Now most just have maybe 4-5 top ones to pick from, hopefully the lure of an A licence may see 10-12 top academies in the future

I wish that were the case.

How do you improve the set up? They are all pretty much the same. 3 clubs have won SL in last 17 years, top youth select those teams and the cycle continues.

If I had a brilliant academy set up at huge annual cost but only for 5th draft of players it would be pointless.

Like giving a Michelin star chef beans and bread and saying create a masterpiece.

Little harsh on some kids who nature later but you get my point.

 

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Just now, Davo5 said:

It’s difficult & I’m not sure what the answer is but community clubs in some areas would be decimated if every club who wanted to was able to run an a academy,the stark facts are that a large percentage of academy players not offered pro contracts don’t return to the community game.

Absolutely. Let's not forget it was only through lack of conviction and spine that the RFL didn't follow through on their belief that KR or Cas didn't have enough playing resources to justify an academy based on their current recruitment pool.

Its an important balance to strike because as you say, the vast majority of academy players who then don't go pro don't return to the amateur levels either. And overmining can leave amateur clubs and indeed whole leagues decimated. There's always going to be a certain amount of wastage, but the governing body's role is to minimise the negative impact of that.

There must be some sort of formula, even if only very general, that says x number of clubs/teams can support 1 academy. 

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3 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Housing. I have a relative who lives on Newlove Avenue (which was named after Paul). 

Thanks. Are other streets named after Saints players as well? Great idea.

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11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am absolutely sure that is why Leigh didn't get an academy Tommy.

Its always going to cost clubs coming from behind more money, perhaps some of that could be spent looking further afield.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Was it considered where licence's have been awarded? 

So in your eyes it is OK to keep some towns as feeders for other club's and for them to have all the financial advantages that go with that, and don't even consider saying they finance their academies, they would not do so if it was not to their advantage.

I don't remember you bringing this up with Derek Beaumont when you were sitting there with a smug expression when he was on your shows.

Now now Harry let's not get personal, keep it light.

When have I said what you have claimed? Pretty sure I said the opposite if I understand your point.

I said on my reply to Saint Tippy I would agree if it was an even playing field.

We did discuss Derek's developments and the work they are doing in the community? 

Edited by David Dockhouse Host
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2 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Thanks. Are other streets named after Saints players as well? Great idea.

Wellens Walk and Sculthorpe Close. I think one is named after Kel Coslett, too. Not sure of any others. 

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5 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I wish that were the case.

How do you improve the set up? They are all pretty much the same. 3 clubs have won SL in last 17 years, top youth select those teams and the cycle continues.

If I had a brilliant academy set up at huge annual cost but only for 5th draft of players it would be pointless.

Like giving a Michelin star chef beans and bread and saying create a masterpiece.

Little harsh on some kids who nature later but you get my point.

 

The simple answer might be that your academy offering isn't as good as you think it is?

Some kids go to clubs because they are reknowned for success or they are supporters. Others go slightly unconventionally because there are more opportunities for progression. 

Its like any career. Join Leeds and your another cog in the wheel of a massive and successful business. Join Wakefield and you could be a superstar who is quickly up for promotion and even getting noticed by others for contracts, but the risk is that the initial rewards, facilities and prospects are worse.

Another key point is obviously that it takes time. And in all that time you with your academy are learning, the long standing academies recruiting the brightest minds to their coaching systems are kicking on too. Rewards won't be instant, but standing still is going backwards.

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9 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Thanks. Are other streets named after Saints players as well? Great idea.

The site itself was called Cunningham grange. I think there is a Coslett Drive,Wellens Walk and Sculthorpe close. 

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25 minutes ago, Damien said:

This gets mentionee out, and it is true, but it also completely ignores the fact that a large percentage of community kids drop out after u18s anyway. Very few kids generally go on to open age. I'm not sure the percentages would be any different or worse when it comes to players staying on past u18s whether they are community players or those leaving the pro ranks.

The problem is that when you combine both of these factors it’s leaving a massive chasm at community clubs.

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6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The simple answer might be that your academy offering isn't as good as you think it is?

Some kids go to clubs because they are reknowned for success or they are supporters. Others go slightly unconventionally because there are more opportunities for progression. 

Its like any career. Join Leeds and your another cog in the wheel of a massive and successful business. Join Wakefield and you could be a superstar who is quickly up for promotion and even getting noticed by others for contracts, but the risk is that the initial rewards, facilities and prospects are worse.

Another key point is obviously that it takes time. And in all that time you with your academy are learning, the long standing academies recruiting the brightest minds to their coaching systems are kicking on too. Rewards won't be instant, but standing still is going backwards.

The better academies tend to cast their net further than their surrounding towns/villages,there is talent out there,clubs need to direct resources in identifying & recruiting it.

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With the current academy system it's an advantage for some clubs not to have them.

This seems wrong on the surface but not when you consider the facts of the system. Academies cost money, fine if you get to cream the best talent and put them in your first team for years with salary cap benefits.

Not good if you have a low pick if players to begin with. There is no restrictions on recruitment, every team knows who the best players are, it's not that some clubs have better scouts, it's a small pool and everyone knows who the best players are 

Therefore they all try to sign them and the player gets to pick their team, they usually 90% select one of the big 3. How many of Saints academy products come from other rugby playing towns?

I've spoken with less fashionable teams and they often say we only get the players others don't want. Some teams don't even bother going for the best players as they know they are wasting time, they look for the fringe players 

Quite a few teams have dropped their academies as the cost doesn't justify the benefits. Running a college based is it Cat B academy is helpful and generates community engagement but with little likelihood of creating regular first team players. The less fashionable SL teams fill their squads with players who came through big 3 academies or by offering higher wages for good players. Further making it difficult as they often have to overpay.

So until the system changes, simply handing out more licenses won't actually benefit teams. But it will further create problems with community sport as it strip's players from amateur rugby and those who don't make it rarely return. There's a huge knock on issue.

So I understand why teams are not enthusiastic about running a cat A academy, I understand the RFL restricting academies as they look after all RL not just SL clubs.

Unless this system is ammended it will always continue this way with the occasional other team having a good year.  Often due to playing older age players but none the less.

This is how it plays out, don't shoot the messenger. 

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11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The simple answer might be that your academy offering isn't as good as you think it is?

Some kids go to clubs because they are reknowned for success or they are supporters. Others go slightly unconventionally because there are more opportunities for progression. 

Its like any career. Join Leeds and your another cog in the wheel of a massive and successful business. Join Wakefield and you could be a superstar who is quickly up for promotion and even getting noticed by others for contracts, but the risk is that the initial rewards, facilities and prospects are worse.

Another key point is obviously that it takes time. And in all that time you with your academy are learning, the long standing academies recruiting the brightest minds to their coaching systems are kicking on too. Rewards won't be instant, but standing still is going backwards.

I agree there are exceptions and clubs can do more, but I don't believe it will be enough to consistently make an impact on the big 3.

If you always get 5th draft it doesn't matter how good your chef is. Not that some won't come through, of course they do but I'm talking about consistently. 

It's over simplistic to say better coaches leads to better players, they need ability to begin with. 

Agree this isn't an exact science though

Edited by David Dockhouse Host
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17 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Now now Harry let's not get personal, keep it light.

When have I said what you have claimed? Pretty sure I said the opposite if I understand your point.

I said on my reply to Saint Tippy I would agree if it was an even playing field.

We did discuss Derek's developments and the work they are doing in the community? 

I apologise if I misread your answer to me, but it looked like criticising at first.

And on the interview with Derek yes I know the community was brought up, but I was hoping it was going to be the rejection of the academy licence application by the RFL I wanted to hear about.

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5 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

The problem is that when you combine both of these factors it’s leaving a massive chasm at community clubs.

Yeah it is. Its why I think there should be a u21s level to keep lads at that kind of age playing together. It can be a drastic change going from u18s to open age with loads of older fellas who have played together for years.

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

I apologise if I misread your answer to me, but it looked like criticising at first.

And on the interview with Derek yes I know the community was brought up, but I was hoping it was going to be the rejection of the academy licence application by the RFL I wanted to hear about.

I wouldn't avoid the topic, but I will always be respectful to any guest, I do it as I enjoy it, I'm not a journalist or hard hitting host, I just want the show to be fun positive promote RL in our small way. So if it's to awkward I would probably spin it, thats our style and hopes for the show.

As in my other post I understand why clubs wouldn't want an academy, it's cost with minimal chance of benefit.

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9 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

With the current academy system it's an advantage for some clubs not to have them.

This seems wrong on the surface but not when you consider the facts of the system. Academies cost money, fine if you get to cream the best talent and put them in your first team for years with salary cap benefits.

Not good if you have a low pick if players to begin with. There is no restrictions on recruitment, every team knows who the best players are, it's not that some clubs have better scouts, it's a small pool and everyone knows who the best players are 

Therefore they all try to sign them and the player gets to pick their team, they usually 90% select one of the big 3. How many of Saints academy products come from other rugby playing towns?

I've spoken with less fashionable teams and they often say we only get the players others don't want. Some teams don't even bother going for the best players as they know they are wasting time, they look for the fringe players 

Quite a few teams have dropped their academies as the cost doesn't justify the benefits. Running a college based is it Cat B academy is helpful and generates community engagement but with little likelihood of creating regular first team players. The less fashionable SL teams fill their squads with players who came through big 3 academies or by offering higher wages for good players. Further making it difficult as they often have to overpay.

So until the system changes, simply handing out more licenses won't actually benefit teams. But it will further create problems with community sport as it strip's players from amateur rugby and those who don't make it rarely return. There's a huge knock on issue.

So I understand why teams are not enthusiastic about running a cat A academy, I understand the RFL restricting academies as they look after all RL not just SL clubs.

Unless this system is ammended it will always continue this way with the occasional other team having a good year.  Often due to playing older age players but none the less.

This is how it plays out, don't shoot the messenger. 

Sorry but that’s just rubbish used by some clubs who merely pay lip service to youth development.

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