Electric Cars

[JohnM]

On 19/12/2022 at 18:01, Bobby123 said:

Relative who is partially sighted almost mowed down by one as he walked around a corner. Never heard a thing.

They're not silent, as has been mentioned. Normally you can hear their owners proclaiming their green credentials from miles away and their smug moral self-righteousness can be sensed from 100 metres.

[Tommygilf]

Hydrogen is going to be far more practical, especially for things like aircraft. If they can get it working for commercial vehicles it will take over electric for normal people who don't get private lease cars or lease cars through work.

Just like with sourcing power for our homes and businesses, I think we are heading for a mixed solution with lots of different energy sources contributing to the pot.

[Tommygilf]

On the mechanics side of it, my dad teaches motor vehicle engineering and is incidentally going on an upskill course for hybrid/electric cars next month.

He's of the opinion that cars have been getting harder and harder to maintain and fix, by design, for some years now. Even the brand garages don't know what to do with some of them. Hybrid and electric are another facet of that in many ways.

From a social point of view, it is also a concern that this will effectively bar a lot of people who could have been mechanics from the trade, as vocational skills will become secondary to skills that require more academic ability. I don't think we need to explain too much the impact of that trend in working class areas over the past 40 years.

[GUBRATS]

Tommy , your last 2 posts are the definition of stating the blinding obvious 

Electric aeroplanes aren't ever going to be a thing until nuclear fusion can be put inside a suitcase 

[DI Keith Fowler]

On 29/12/2022 at 08:45, Tommygilf said:

Hydrogen is going to be far more practical, especially for things like aircraft. If they can get it working for commercial vehicles it will take over electric for normal people who don't get private lease cars or lease cars through work.

Just like with sourcing power for our homes and businesses, I think we are heading for a mixed solution with lots of different energy sources contributing to the pot.

Hydrogen will be the source for aircraft, haulage etc. but cars I don't see it. Ultimately you're losing something like 75% of the energy generated to produce, transport and convert back hydrogen. It was electricity in the first place why not just transmit through the grid? I think the loss point to point for an EV is 10%. 

It's something we should be looking at for storage at the times of day when we have excess energy through renewables, for situations where it's not viable to park the vehicle and plug it in for long periods. 

On the flip side hydrogen gets used as a panacea by a lot of vested interests because the technology has been just a few years away for decades now and doesn't look all that closer. It's a very intentional ploy to say to people "just keep buying our oil and gas for a few more years and we've got hydrogen just over the horizon". The cigarette companies didn't go down this easily in the 50s I don't know why it's a surprise the much richer oil and gas companies might have some dirty tricks in their toolbox. 

[JohnM]

There no vested interests promoting electric vehicles? 

[DI Keith Fowler]

17 hours ago, JohnM said:

There no vested interests promoting electric vehicles? 

Of course. However their vested interest is either to reduce emissions, make money, or do both.

The vested interest on the other side is to make money at all costs despite the environmental impact.

Given the predicament the idea some car companies might profit off of something that needs to happen to cut emissions is fairly low on my concerns.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Of course. However their vested interest is either to reduce emissions, make money, or do both.

The vested interest on the other side is to make money at all costs despite the environmental impact.

Given the predicament the idea some car companies might profit off of something that needs to happen to cut emissions is fairly low on my concerns.

Their vested interest is certainly not in reducing emissions 

[DI Keith Fowler]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Their vested interest is certainly not in reducing emissions 

Sorry no, we're talking about the totality of people promoting electric vehicles including scientists & activists who are very much focussed on that.

I conceded and included the profit making motive for those who have seen the direction of travel and seek to make money off it.

[Tommygilf]

45 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Sorry no, we're talking about the totality of people promoting electric vehicles including scientists & activists who are very much focussed on that.

I conceded and included the profit making motive for those who have seen the direction of travel and seek to make money off it.

Oh of course and scientists have never promoted anything for money and are totally unconnected to vested industrial interests... 

 

[Derwent]

49 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Oh of course and scientists have never promoted anything for money and are totally unconnected to vested industrial interests... 

 

 

[DI Keith Fowler]

I don't think a conflation between individual studies which can tend towards findings that favour their sponsor (which does happen) is in any way an argument to doubt the motivations of 97-99%* of the worlds climate scientists and the sheer body of work we're talking about. You're living in the realms of conspiracy theories to be perfectly honest. 

 *Incidentally the major hold out was the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. I think the thing you're describing is more accurate of the smaller percent than the bigger percent. 

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Oh of course and scientists have never promoted anything for money and are totally unconnected to vested industrial interests... 

 

Could you list some relevant examples?

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Derwent said:

 

Edit:

I did put a response here but it was silly and unfair.

Edited December 31, 2022 by gingerjon

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Could you list some relevant examples?

Mr Fowler above stated that hydrogen energy was being pushed by Oil companies that wanted to delay transition away from fossil fuels. I assume the scientists pushing this development have nothing but the best interests at heart, but evidently others think there are shady backers.

Nuclear Energy has also obviously been a massive quagmire for scientists because of its armed capabilities.

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

I don't think a conflation between individual studies which can tend towards findings that favour their sponsor (which does happen) is in any way an argument to doubt the motivations of 97-99%* of the worlds climate scientists and the sheer body of work we're talking about. You're living in the realms of conspiracy theories to be perfectly honest. 

 *Incidentally the major hold out was the American Association of Petroleum Geologists. I think the thing you're describing is more accurate of the smaller percent than the bigger percent. 

Well if we are only talking exclusively about scientists then you're going after the wrong place then. Climate science is fine of course has a well respected backing, that doesn't mean people and companies won't use it for their own gain or take advantage of people's (including scientists) naïvity.

I've seen a lithium mine, it didn't make me think of Greenpeace, perhaps that is the point? Off to go invest in a carbon offsetting scheme so I can fly to America next year guilt free.

[DI Keith Fowler]

On 31/12/2022 at 19:08, Tommygilf said:

Well if we are only talking exclusively about scientists then you're going after the wrong place then. Climate science is fine of course has a well respected backing, that doesn't mean people and companies won't use it for their own gain or take advantage of people's (including scientists) naïvity.

I've seen a lithium mine, it didn't make me think of Greenpeace, perhaps that is the point? Off to go invest in a carbon offsetting scheme so I can fly to America next year guilt free.

Are you sure it's not a copper mine? There's an image that has been going round social media for years purporting to be a lithium mine but actually isn't. 

In any case, I guess firstly you could read Greenpeace's own words on this, they're supportive of EVs in principle, while remaining critical of the mining methods which aren't inherent within the process but products of exploitation (of either people or the environment) in the name of profit. This isn't an inconsistent position. 

Secondly if you value their input you could read what they have to say about fossil fuels, you might be surprised to learn they're a little critical. 

Thirdly if you're dead set against lithium I suggest you throw away anything you own that has a battery in it (including your current car). 

[DI Keith Fowler]

On 31/12/2022 at 19:04, Tommygilf said:

Mr Fowler above stated that hydrogen energy was being pushed by Oil companies that wanted to delay transition away from fossil fuels. I assume the scientists pushing this development have nothing but the best interests at heart, but evidently others think there are shady backers.

Nuclear Energy has also obviously been a massive quagmire for scientists because of its armed capabilities.

Indeed, and the best way out of this situation is too look at things on a factual basis. By every metric EV cars will produce less emissions than existing cars. That some companies are going to profit off it, as I posted earlier, is fairly low down my concerns right now, because the end result is a reduction in emissions.

High up on my list of concerns is the people looking to profit off of things that will not reduce emissions. 

Also, please, Mr Fowler is my father. I am Detective Inspector. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by DI Keith Fowler

[GUBRATS]

A feature on EVs today on the Jeremy Vine show , the conclusions ? , Not good , not enough chargers , too many chargers broke , too many chargers not powerful enough , the advertised range on them isn't correct , and even then it's fine if there's only one person in the car with no luggage, and it's not raining or at night , or in winter with the heater on , or summer with the air con on 

Helen Skelton rang in , twice she's ended up running out of charge , last time on the M6 with 3 kids in the car , the recovery turned up and described it as a " Lap top on wheels " , " no idea how to fix or move it " 

Quentin Wilson , formerly of Top Gear came on and suggested that the original motoring journalist who was on first should not have bought the Jaguar I Pace as it is rubbish , he suggested his car , a " long range Tesla MK2 " was the car to have , but didn't say how much it cost him

[gazza77]

Not enough chargers agreed, especially the further north you are. Agreed on advertised range, although that is no different to ice cars. As for running out of charge, why is that any different to running out of petrol or diesel. That's user error, not the car. 

Laptop on wheels: the AA, etc. clearly need training to catch up with technology, and again it's not just electric cars nowadays that are full of computers. 

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, gazza77 said:

Not enough chargers agreed, especially the further north you are. Agreed on advertised range, although that is no different to ice cars. As for running out of charge, why is that any different to running out of petrol or diesel. That's user error, not the car. 

Laptop on wheels: the AA, etc. clearly need training to catch up with technology, and again it's not just electric cars nowadays that are full of computers. 

Yes people shouldn't run out of charge but if they can't get from A to B and back in a single charge, can't get them charged en route or if they can have to add X amount of time to their journey to charge on the way then that is absolutely down to the car and lack of infrastructure.

An electric battery degrades over time and with mileage. Range is reduced even further by anything up to 20% in cold weather. If you need to do large miles they are simply not feasible, as things stand, for many people and it is a bit simplistic to put that down to user error when there are so many variables.

If I need to do a long journey and stop for 2 mins to put in £20 of diesel its not really a big thing and takes less than 5 mins. An electric car is a different ball game altogether.

[gazza77]

35 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yes people shouldn't run out of charge but if they can't get from A to B and back in a single charge, can't get them charged en route or if they can have to add X amount of time to their journey to charge on the way then that is absolutely down to the car and lack of infrastructure.

An electric battery degrades over time and with mileage. Range is reduced even further by anything up to 20% in cold weather. If you need to do large miles they are simply not feasible, as things stand, for many people and it is a bit simplistic to put that down to user error when there are so many variables.

If I need to do a long journey and stop for 2 mins to put in £20 of diesel its not really a big thing and takes less than 5 mins. An electric car is a different ball game altogether.

I have an electric car, I'm aware of the pitfalls.

For many people they won't work at present because they don't fit in with their lifestyle and charging infrastructure is the main reason behind that. Buying one and then complaining about the range or running out of charge is like me riding my motorbike and complaining when I get wet in the rain. 

[hw88]

14 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

A feature on EVs today on the Jeremy Vine show , the conclusions ? , Not good , not enough chargers , too many chargers broke , too many chargers not powerful enough , the advertised range on them isn't correct , and even then it's fine if there's only one person in the car with no luggage, and it's not raining or at night , or in winter with the heater on , or summer with the air con on 

Helen Skelton rang in , twice she's ended up running out of charge , last time on the M6 with 3 kids in the car , the recovery turned up and described it as a " Lap top on wheels " , " no idea how to fix or move it " 

Quentin Wilson , formerly of Top Gear came on and suggested that the original motoring journalist who was on first should not have bought the Jaguar I Pace as it is rubbish , he suggested his car , a " long range Tesla MK2 " was the car to have , but didn't say how much it cost him

Pretty accurate. Could also add driving on a perfectly level surface.

There need to be far more public chargers for EVs to be a viable alternative to the ICE.

[gazza77]

56 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Pretty accurate. Could also add driving on a perfectly level surface.

 

Living in the heart of the pennines, that's not actually my experience. The energy recovery going downhill broadly offsets going uphill when compared to an average flat journey. The real difference is that electric seem far more efficient for short journeys and less so comparably at speed. That makes the long journey impact worse but actually means they'd be great in a urban environment. 

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, gazza77 said:

Not enough chargers agreed, especially the further north you are. Agreed on advertised range, although that is no different to ice cars. As for running out of charge, why is that any different to running out of petrol or diesel. That's user error, not the car. 

Laptop on wheels: the AA, etc. clearly need training to catch up with technology, and again it's not just electric cars nowadays that are full of computers. 

Yes , but when you plan your journey and pick out where to charge up , only to arrive to find half the chargers are broke , and there's a 2 hour wait for the rest of them , the journalist ( not Wilson ) quoted what should have been a 5 hour journey took him 12 , and eventually the Jag just packed in with 50 miles left in the battery , the computer declaring various parts or the car like traction control and ABS weren't working so the car was left in a in his words ' precarious ' position on the road as it couldn't be pushed anywhere safer , he rang the dealership to come and pick it up , and could he please swap it for a petrol version