Electric Cars

[hw88]

2 hours ago, gazza77 said:

Living in the heart of the pennines, that's not actually my experience. The energy recovery going downhill broadly offsets going uphill when compared to an average flat journey. The real difference is that electric seem far more efficient for short journeys and less so comparably at speed. That makes the long journey impact worse but actually means they'd be great in a urban environment. 

Now I found just the opposite. As you say going downhill is great with not much battery useage but going uphill I found it took much more out of the battery compared to a flattish surface.

[gazza77]

10 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Now I found just the opposite. As you say going downhill is great with not much battery useage but going uphill I found it took much more out of the battery compared to a flattish surface.

I'd agree with that. I meant the net of uphill and downhill in a journey doesn't use more than a trip that's primarily flat. 

[DI Keith Fowler]

I don't think anyone is going to dispute that there need to be more chargers, I think I read the number of chargers went up 30% last year but sales of EV cars went up 75%. Obviously that's going to cause a strain.

It's par for the course in people adopting new technology, it takes time to find a level, and it will do quite quickly because it's all profit not being maximised.

Before petrol stations where common if your Ford Model T or whatever ran out of petrol you'd be asking someone in the local town to pull you back with horses, things don't change all that much. 

[gazza77]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , but when you plan your journey and pick out where to charge up , only to arrive to find half the chargers are broke , and there's a 2 hour wait for the rest of them , the journalist ( not Wilson ) quoted what should have been a 5 hour journey took him 12 , and eventually the Jag just packed in with 50 miles left in the battery , the computer declaring various parts or the car like traction control and ABS weren't working so the car was left in a in his words ' precarious ' position on the road as it couldn't be pushed anywhere safer , he rang the dealership to come and pick it up , and could he please swap it for a petrol version

That's the infrastructure issue, not the car. As for breaking down, that's hardly unique to electric cars, and I say that as a jag owner.

[bobbruce]

Due to the capabilities of the batteries electric cars aren’t quite there unless you are just doing short commutes. The only way they would work for longer driving now is instead of charge points you had a system were you swapped batteries. If they were designed so you pulled into a garage your battery was dragged out and a fully charged one put in and away you go. I now there are other problems with this way but they could be fixed but the whole industry would have to go with it. 

[GUBRATS]

On 13/01/2023 at 10:09, bobbruce said:

Due to the capabilities of the batteries electric cars aren’t quite there unless you are just doing short commutes. The only way they would work for longer driving now is instead of charge points you had a system were you swapped batteries. If they were designed so you pulled into a garage your battery was dragged out and a fully charged one put in and away you go. I now there are other problems with this way but they could be fixed but the whole industry would have to go with it. 

Like a ' cassette ' , now you'd think they could do that with trucks , a situation where you rent the battery rather than buy one 

[bobbruce]

22 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Like a ' cassette ' , now you'd think they could do that with trucks , a situation where you rent the battery rather than buy one 

That’s my thinking all cars would have to use the same batteries for it to work. 

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

That’s my thinking all cars would have to use the same batteries for it to work. 

We need somebody ' savvy ' enough to produce a photofit of a Jag with a big Makita drill battery stuck n the back of it ?

[metallithrax]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-tech%2C-development-and-manufacturing/could-battery-swapping-replace-ev-charging

[gazza77]

Had a journey today that for the first time in 2+ years of running an ev I'd not planned for, so whilst a full charge would have seen me out and home again, we needed to charge whilst out for the first time in months. 

First stop, 4 chargers but 3 in use. Plugged in, but got an error advising faulty charger. Went a few miles down the road, 2 chargers both in use. Third time lucky, plugged in and topped up whilst we had a brew as planned, enough to get home although charge rates nowhere near expected in terms of speed.

It emphasised what I already knew tbh. An ev is great, but won't fit in with everyone's lifestyle and the infrastructure isn't keeping up with the demand from the public nor the government's desire to stop ice sales. 

[JohnM]

It seems that the batteries in a typical electric car weigh around 1000 lbs. Electric cars are in general much heavier than the comparable IC vehicles. in addition, existing designs preclude quick and easy battery swaps. 

Thus it means waiting , in my view, for the next or even next but one generation of designs. Getting any standardisation is going to be challenging.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/ev-car-battery-capacity-tech/

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

It seems that the batteries in a typical electric car weigh around 1000 lbs. Electric cars are in general much heavier than the comparable IC vehicles. in addition, existing designs preclude quick and easy battery swaps. 

Thus it means waiting , in my view, for the next or even next but one generation of designs. Getting any standardisation is going to be challenging.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/ev-car-battery-capacity-tech/

I've a bit of a wait then , still as long as I can still get 22 to the gallon round town I'll have to stick with the Dodge

[Futtocks]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

It seems that the batteries in a typical electric car weigh around 1000 lbs. Electric cars are in general much heavier than the comparable IC vehicles. in addition, existing designs preclude quick and easy battery swaps. 

Thus it means waiting , in my view, for the next or even next but one generation of designs. Getting any standardisation is going to be challenging.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/ev-car-battery-capacity-tech/

There's finally a degree of standardisation for power sockets on small electronics (the USB-C interface that Rees-Mogg railed against so impotently) and look how long that took to happen.

And when/if "filling stations" become places where standardised batteries are swapped in and out instead of recharged, the security overheads for a building stacked full of expensive hi-tech power cells will be pretty high.

[DI Keith Fowler]

45 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

There's finally a degree of standardisation for power sockets on small electronics (the USB-C interface that Rees-Mogg railed against so impotently) and look how long that took to happen.

And when/if "filling stations" become places where standardised batteries are swapped in and out instead of recharged, the security overheads for a building stacked full of expensive hi-tech power cells will be pretty high.

Not to mention the inherent price increase, for labour and the extra batteries needed, the ratio right now is 1 battery per car by definition you'll need more than that to make recharging work. 

[GUBRATS]

On 15/01/2023 at 19:10, DI Keith Fowler said:

Not to mention the inherent price increase, for labour and the extra batteries needed, the ratio right now is 1 battery per car by definition you'll need more than that to make recharging work. 

And our one battery factory factory gets cancelled 

[JohnM]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

And our one battery factory factory gets cancelled 

Another DeLorien? Company could not come up with the money. Govt money still there waiting.

[Red Willow]

Liverpool are doubling their charging points.

I was surprised that only means to 300.

My other surprise was the city outside London with most points.

Coventry!

 

 

[Ackroman]

I would like to add to this debate by comparing 2 cars we have leased, 1 ICE, 1 Electric.

The ICE (pick-up) does about 40mpg diesel and costs £350 per month for 5 years, doing 100,000 miles. 1 service each year at £1000 year and a set of tyres each year at £500, plus road tax at £225. If you take an average diesel price of £1.60 per litre then the overall running cost of the car is £18,750 in diesel, £21,000 in lease payments, £5000 in servicing, £2500 in tyres and £1125 in road tax. Total £48,000

The EV is averaging 225 miles on a charge (winter 200, summer 240), costing atm 30p per kwh (I'm happy to use this number as it may go up and I had 2 years at 13p per kwh). On a 5 year lease at 100,000 miles it will cost approx. £10,000 in electric. The lease payments are £550 a month, servicing £600 in total, tyres £2500, £0 road tax. I also installed a home charger for £500. Total £46,600.

Looking at the numbers shows it is marginal but only because electric prices have doubled. 

The next consideration are the BIK values. The EV was 1% last year, and 2% from now on, so a total of £3500, which would attract a tax of £700 total. The ICE has a £3.2K BIK value, meaning you would pay 20% on that additional figure, so £640 a year or £3200k over 5 years.

Total costs now stand at £51,200 ICE, £47,300 EV.

Looking a bit more beneficial for the EV.

If you do these figures where you bought the cars outright at the beginning, then the EV is a total of £62,100 - £25,000 (market value) = £37,100 total cost. The ICE £58,625 - £10,000 (market value) = £48,625  total cost. The market value is obviously market dependent but you can see how close the cost of ownership is without it.

From my point of view nothing touches the EV on all fronts, I rarely charge away from home - bringing it home sometimes with about 10% charge. Brilliant thing is its 100% the next morning. If I have to top up I only top up enough to bring me home with 10% or so. A totally different mindset to owning an ICE. 

I've had a few people gloating about the cost of electric and how expensive they are to run but it costs me less by about £1000 a year and I'm driving a £50k car, not the £30k equivalent pick-up to keep the BIK down to a sensible level and to also benefit from the VAT.

If you had the equivalent saloon petrol or diesel to the EV then the gap in costs for the equivalent vehicle would be massive. For example a service at Audi, BMW or Volvo would be £2.5k plus and the BIK double that of the pick up, plus the additional road tax for a car that can do 60 in 4.5secs.  Thats a minimum of an additional £2000 saving having the EV.

 

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, Ackroman said:

I would like to add to this debate by comparing 2 cars we have leased, 1 ICE, 1 Electric.

The ICE (pick-up) does about 40mpg diesel and costs £350 per month for 5 years, doing 100,000 miles. 1 service each year at £1000 year and a set of tyres each year at £500, plus road tax at £225. If you take an average diesel price of £1.60 per litre then the overall running cost of the car is £18,750 in diesel, £21,000 in lease payments, £5000 in servicing, £2500 in tyres and £1125 in road tax. Total £48,000

The EV is averaging 225 miles on a charge (winter 200, summer 240), costing atm 30p per kwh (I'm happy to use this number as it may go up and I had 2 years at 13p per kwh). On a 5 year lease at 100,000 miles it will cost approx. £10,000 in electric. The lease payments are £550 a month, servicing £600 in total, tyres £2500, £0 road tax. I also installed a home charger for £500. Total £46,600.

Looking at the numbers shows it is marginal but only because electric prices have doubled. 

The next consideration are the BIK values. The EV was 1% last year, and 2% from now on, so a total of £3500, which would attract a tax of £700 total. The ICE has a £3.2K BIK value, meaning you would pay 20% on that additional figure, so £640 a year or £3200k over 5 years.

Total costs now stand at £51,200 ICE, £47,300 EV.

Looking a bit more beneficial for the EV.

If you do these figures where you bought the cars outright at the beginning, then the EV is a total of £62,100 - £25,000 (market value) = £37,100 total cost. The ICE £58,625 - £10,000 (market value) = £48,625  total cost. The market value is obviously market dependent but you can see how close the cost of ownership is without it.

From my point of view nothing touches the EV on all fronts, I rarely charge away from home - bringing it home sometimes with about 10% charge. Brilliant thing is its 100% the next morning. If I have to top up I only top up enough to bring me home with 10% or so. A totally different mindset to owning an ICE. 

I've had a few people gloating about the cost of electric and how expensive they are to run but it costs me less by about £1000 a year and I'm driving a £50k car, not the £30k equivalent pick-up to keep the BIK down to a sensible level and to also benefit from the VAT.

If you had the equivalent saloon petrol or diesel to the EV then the gap in costs for the equivalent vehicle would be massive. For example a service at Audi, BMW or Volvo would be £2.5k plus and the BIK double that of the pick up, plus the additional road tax for a car that can do 60 in 4.5secs.  Thats a minimum of an additional £2000 saving having the EV.

 

Why do you need to do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds ? 

Can you fit 5 sheep in the back of your EV ?

Can you buy an EV van for a couple of grand and fill it full of bricks,sand,plaster,tools, human tools and drive 150 miles in a day stopping only for coffee and a subway butty ? 

[JohnM]

6 hours ago, Ackroman said:

I would like to add to this debate by comparing 2 cars we have leased, 1 ICE, 1 Electric.

The ICE (pick-up) does about 40mpg diesel and costs £350 per month for 5 years, doing 100,000 miles. 1 service each year at £1000 year and a set of tyres each year at £500, plus road tax at £225. If you take an average diesel price of £1.60 per litre then the overall running cost of the car is £18,750 in diesel, £21,000 in lease payments, £5000 in servicing, £2500 in tyres and £1125 in road tax. Total £48,000

The EV is averaging 225 miles on a charge (winter 200, summer 240), costing atm 30p per kwh (I'm happy to use this number as it may go up and I had 2 years at 13p per kwh). On a 5 year lease at 100,000 miles it will cost approx. £10,000 in electric. The lease payments are £550 a month, servicing £600 in total, tyres £2500, £0 road tax. I also installed a home charger for £500. Total £46,600.

Looking at the numbers shows it is marginal but only because electric prices have doubled. 

The next consideration are the BIK values. The EV was 1% last year, and 2% from now on, so a total of £3500, which would attract a tax of £700 total. The ICE has a £3.2K BIK value, meaning you would pay 20% on that additional figure, so £640 a year or £3200k over 5 years.

Total costs now stand at £51,200 ICE, £47,300 EV.

Looking a bit more beneficial for the EV.

If you do these figures where you bought the cars outright at the beginning, then the EV is a total of £62,100 - £25,000 (market value) = £37,100 total cost. The ICE £58,625 - £10,000 (market value) = £48,625  total cost. The market value is obviously market dependent but you can see how close the cost of ownership is without it.

From my point of view nothing touches the EV on all fronts, I rarely charge away from home - bringing it home sometimes with about 10% charge. Brilliant thing is its 100% the next morning. If I have to top up I only top up enough to bring me home with 10% or so. A totally different mindset to owning an ICE. 

I've had a few people gloating about the cost of electric and how expensive they are to run but it costs me less by about £1000 a year and I'm driving a £50k car, not the £30k equivalent pick-up to keep the BIK down to a sensible level and to also benefit from the VAT.

If you had the equivalent saloon petrol or diesel to the EV then the gap in costs for the equivalent vehicle would be massive. For example a service at Audi, BMW or Volvo would be £2.5k plus and the BIK double that of the pick up, plus the additional road tax for a car that can do 60 in 4.5secs.  Thats a minimum of an additional £2000 saving having the EV.

 

Very interesting and informative. Sure, the change is inevitable, but with the average life of an ICE vehicle in excess of 13 years, I think, there's a way to go yet. Ford are putting all their eggs in the EV basket  with Mondeo, S - Max and Galaxy production ending,  and being replaced with vehicles designed from the outset to be battery-powered, including Transits.

There is some evidence from leasing companies that EV residuals are falling, whilst those of ICE are rising.  Tesla have been actively  cutting prices by up to 13.5%, it seems.  Audi, BMW and Volvo are premium brands, too, whereas I think a fairer comparison would be with the KIA range.

[gazza77]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

Why do you need to do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds ? 

Can you fit 5 sheep in the back of your EV ?

Can you buy an EV van for a couple of grand and fill it full of bricks,sand,plaster,tools, human tools and drive 150 miles in a day stopping only for coffee and a subway butty ? 

Can you buy a comparably aged petrol or diesel for a couple of grand?

We run a mixed fleet of Renault zoes and small electric vans (I forget the model) at work. Run throughout the day, plugged in overnight. They're great, and save a fortune on fuel bills. 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, gazza77 said:

Can you buy a comparably aged petrol or diesel for a couple of grand?

We run a mixed fleet of Renault zoes and small electric vans (I forget the model) at work. Run throughout the day, plugged in overnight. They're great, and save a fortune on fuel bills. 

If you've only got a couple of grand , that's the option 

Small vans ain't much use for me , bought a Merc Sprinter 20 years ago , 220 K on it now , there isn't a similar van on the market in Electric with any sort of range , it'll carry on getting fixed till I retire 

[JohnM]

Transit review here. Range only 190 miles...or less. As with othe EVs  towing is an issue.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/ford/transit/2022-e-transit-review/

[gazza77]

8 hours ago, JohnM said:

Transit review here. Range only 190 miles...or less. As with othe EVs  towing is an issue.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/ford/transit/2022-e-transit-review/

Same as with electric cars then. For some people they make perfect sense, for others they don't. 

[Ackroman]

13 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Why do you need to do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds ? 

Can you fit 5 sheep in the back of your EV ?

Can you buy an EV van for a couple of grand and fill it full of bricks,sand,plaster,tools, human tools and drive 150 miles in a day stopping only for coffee and a subway butty ? 

 

I don't but you know that. Maybe 6s would be better or a man with a flag? What else don't we need in a car that you might enjoy? 

I've got a Navara for that. It won't fit 5 sheep though, best to use a trailer and the EV could easily pull that.

I think that van you're going to buy won't last very long. I work with plenty of tradies who have tried it though. Van off the road = £0 pay.