Sun 3rd Sept: SL: Wakefield Trinity v St Helens KO 15:00

[Saint Toppy]

12 hours ago, bobbruce said:

He’s got 1 game I think. 

He got a Grade B charge which is consistent with the majority of these tackles this season. I'm assuming he got the 1 match and not just the fine because of the injury which again is consistent. 

[north yorks trinity]

11 hours ago, bobbruce said:

What do you want to happen these tackles are a fraction of a seconds late I genuinely don’t know how they judge them anymore. Especially for a ref watching it in real time. 

Even if it hadn't have been late (which is was) it was a shoulder charge and we expect officials to spot them. I didn't notice it at the game but then I'm not a ref. Like I said earlier, my general impression was that Griffiths had a good game but this was a mistake by all three officials. 1 match ban seems lenient.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

1 hour ago, Chris22 said:

What sanction do you think he should receive?

Dropped for a week.  Same as Hurrell really but far less than Dagger's enforced "break"

[phiggins]

25 minutes ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

Dropped for a week.  Same as Hurrell really but far less than Dagger's enforced "break"

How many Wakefield players are you dropping for making mistakes?

And who will referee the game that Griffiths would otherwise have taken?

Are you suspended after every percieved mistake you make at work?

[north yorks trinity]

55 minutes ago, phiggins said:

How many Wakefield players are you dropping for making mistakes?

And who will referee the game that Griffiths would otherwise have taken?

Are you suspended after every percieved mistake you make at work?

Agreed. It was a significant mistake but a split second one. You have to learn and move on. If he keeps making mistakes and better refs come along we would have the luxury of dropping Griffiths. But IMO he appears to be improving through experience and we're not awash with alternatives.

Hurrell's "mistake" was less forgivable. IMO he could have chosen to pull out but whether you agree with this or not he chose to shoulder charge and should be answerable for the consequences.  If his ban was within current guidelines then fair enough but if so the guidelines need reviewing. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by north yorks trinity
Removal of unnecessary spell check induced apostrophe!!

[Saint Toppy]

40 minutes ago, north yorks trinity said:

Even if it hadn't have been late (which is was) it was a shoulder charge and we expect officials to spot them. I didn't notice it at the game but then I'm not a ref. Like I said earlier, my general impression was that Griffiths had a good game but this was a mistake by all three officials. 1 match ban seems lenient.

It wasn't a shoulder charge at all. A shoulder charge is where a player has their arm down by their side and makes no attempt to wrap the arm in the tackle. At the point of contact Hurrell's arm is diagonally out across Dagger's chest not down by his side

[Saint Toppy]

2 minutes ago, north yorks trinity said:

Hurrell's "mistake" was less forgivable. IMO he could have chosen to pull out but whether you agree with this or not he chose to shoulder charge and should be answerable for the consequences.  If his ban was within current guidelines then fair enough but if so the guidelines need reviewing. 

Have you even watched the incident ???

Before Dagger passes Hurrell's feet are planted, shoulder dipped and arm out to make the tackle. There's not a single player in the game who could have pulled out of that tackle and neither was it a shoulder charge by any definition.

For once the disciplinary have brought exactly the right charge consistent with other charges throughout the season. Where players have been committed to tackles but the ball has gone they have been handing out Grade A or B charges with a £250 fine. If there's an injury resulting from that tackle they apply the next sanction up which is a 1 match ban. 

[Chris22]

1 hour ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

Dropped for a week.  Same as Hurrell really but far less than Dagger's enforced "break"

OK. And who should replace him?

Equally, should the referee from Wigan v Salford be dropped for not punishing three incidents that ultimately led to bans? If so, who should replace him?

Same questions but for Hull FC v Leeds, as Jake Clifford was not removed from the field but banned?

Last one, should the dropped referees officiate in the Championship this week or not at all, in your view?

 

[north yorks trinity]

30 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Before Dagger passes Hurrell's feet are planted, shoulder dipped and arm out to make the tackle. There's not a single player in the game who could have pulled out of that tackle and neither was it a shoulder charge by any definition.

I've just watched it again and disagree with your assessment. Probably best to agree to disagree and move on?

But one question that arises: IF he couldn't have pulled out AND his technique was good why do you feel any sanction was merited?

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, north yorks trinity said:

I've just watched it again and disagree with your assessment. Probably best to agree to disagree and move on?

But one question that arises: IF he couldn't have pulled out AND his technique was good why do you feel any sanction was merited?

Still not sure how you can think its a shoulder charge, the video clearly shows Hurrell's arm outstretched across Daggers chest on impact ???

As for the charge, because thats the rules this year. If the contact is made after the ball has left the hands its deemed as late and has invariably received a Grade A or B charge with a £250 fine (unless your Sam Tomkins or a Wigan player and in which case any late or high shot is deemed OK ). If there is then a resulting injury then they apply the next available sanction which is a 1 match ban.

If it was late and had been a shoulder charge then he would have been getting a minimum Grade C charge and a 1-2 match ban, plus then an extra game for the resulting injury.

[LeeF]

7 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Have you even watched the incident ???

Before Dagger passes Hurrell's feet are planted, shoulder dipped and arm out to make the tackle. There's not a single player in the game who could have pulled out of that tackle and neither was it a shoulder charge by any definition.

For once the disciplinary have brought exactly the right charge consistent with other charges throughout the season. Where players have been committed to tackles but the ball has gone they have been handing out Grade A or B charges with a £250 fine. If there's an injury resulting from that tackle they apply the next sanction up which is a 1 match ban. 

Wrong. Yet again. It’s his previous that impacts but that has been explained to you before

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

It wasn't a shoulder charge at all. A shoulder charge is where a player has their arm down by their side and makes no attempt to wrap the arm in the tackle. At the point of contact Hurrell's arm is diagonally out across Dagger's chest not down by his side

Seems you have been making excuses all season Toppy for Saints player's misdemeanors, must be like a full time job. 

[LeeF]

27 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Seems you have been making excuses all season Toppy for Saints player's misdemeanors, must be like a full time job. 

He’ll definitely need a holiday when the season finishes. 

[Saint Toppy]

14 hours ago, LeeF said:

Wrong. Yet again. It’s his previous that impacts but that has been explained to you before

Afraid not your wrong in this instance. Saints raised a query with the RFL earlier this season after the Lees / Wright incident, and they confirmed that any injury a player sustains is now taken into consideration. If a player sustains an injury as a result of foul play then a higher level of punishment is given.

Your out of date and basing it on last seasons rules for assessing punishments for foul play.

[phiggins]

24 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Afraid not your wrong in this instance. Saints raised a query with the RFL earlier this season after the Lees / Wright incident, and they confirmed that any injury a player sustains is now taken into consideration. If a player sustains an injury as a result of foul play then a higher level of punishment is given.

Your out of date and basing it on last seasons rules for assessing punishments for foul play.

The impact of Cooper's injury on Knowles' ban was that he was given a longer ban than the top end you would get for the grading given. (He had a grade D charge which usually gets 2-3 games, but was given 5 games) https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/st-helens-morgan-knowles-ban-26678676

Hurrell was given a grade B charge, which is 0-1 game. He might just got a fine, but for his red card against Leeds.

Edited September 6, 2023 by phiggins

[LeeF]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Afraid not your wrong in this instance. Saints raised a query with the RFL earlier this season after the Lees / Wright incident, and they confirmed that any injury a player sustains is now taken into consideration. If a player sustains an injury as a result of foul play then a higher level of punishment is given.

Your out of date and basing it on last seasons rules for assessing punishments for foul play.

You are still wrong. Hurrell was due to his previous at Grade B. Mind you I would have expected Saints to know the misconduct guidelines inside out since they are the least disciplined team in Super League or maybe they think reading and understanding are for others. 

[Josef K]

3 hours ago, LeeF said:

You are still wrong. Hurrell was due to his previous at Grade B. Mind you I would have expected Saints to know the misconduct guidelines inside out since they are the least disciplined team in Super League or maybe they think reading and understanding are for others. 

I agree with you Leef the Saints discipline is shocking and it annoys me, but i don’t think we are the least disciplined.

Including cup games we have had two players sent off, eight yellow cards(i think), and we have had twelve players suspended. I don’t know about six-agains but i can see Saints walking that one easily. 

[LeeF]

53 minutes ago, Josef K said:

I agree with you Leef the Saints discipline is shocking and it annoys me, but i don’t think we are the least disciplined.

Including cup games we have had two players sent off, eight yellow cards(i think), and we have had twelve players suspended. I don’t know about six-agains but i can see Saints walking that one easily. 

About a month ago over 20 players had been charged which is the measure I was using to say that they were the least disciplined side in SL. Whether that is reflected in the number of penalties conceded I don’t know.
 

Either way Wellens must be happy with the current position as he hasn’t changed/ improved things during the season

[johnh1]

I think that Saints are top of the charts for ending opponent players seasons. Is any other team close?

[Chris22]

3 hours ago, johnh1 said:

I think that Saints are top of the charts for ending opponent players seasons. Is any other team close?

Any evidence to support that statement? Or is it just made up?

[Josef K]

20 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Any evidence to support that statement? Or is it just made up?

He heard it in the pub. 

[johnh1]

2 hours ago, Chris22 said:

Any evidence to support that statement? Or is it just made up?

Cooper, Wright and Dagger. Do you know any team that has done more? If you can then I will withdraw my comment.

Edited September 6, 2023 by johnh1

[johnh1]

2 hours ago, Josef K said:

He heard it in the pub. 

 

2 hours ago, Josef K said:

He heard it in the pub. 

Any evidence to support that statement, or have you just made it up?

[FearTheVee]

33 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

Cooper, Wright and Dagger. Do you know any team that has done more? If you can then I will withdraw my comment.

Ahhh - some people will be so annoyed when we make it five.

Good job we haven’t lost any players to injury all year.

[Chris22]

7 hours ago, johnh1 said:

Cooper, Wright and Dagger. Do you know any team that has done more? If you can then I will withdraw my comment.

Dagger is confirmed as missing for a week, not the season.

I haven't counted the injuries "caused" by each team, aside from I know that two of our players suffered season ending injuries in tackles by John Asiata of Leigh.

Wright is quite a stretch given that it came from an awkward fall. Whilst the tackle was high, it defeats biology that a head high contact can cause a broken ankle.

It's a bit of a flawed question in any event. If a player suffers a 2 week injury now, they meet the criteria of being out for the season, in a way that the same or even a more serious foul could not have in March.

That's not to take away from the general point that our discipline has been poor all season and, whilst getting better, needs work.