Phil Gould on International RL

[Big Picture]

6 hours ago, rlno1 said:

Gus Gould was on The Bloke in a Bar podcast this week. He gave his thoughts on international league it's at the end around the 1hr 36min when he is talking about a 20 team NRL then into International RL.

 

I just listened to that last part and Gus overlooks a fundamental flaw with the idea that the Aussies can drive the game forward internationally, namely the fact that as he stated Australia is a small country, "not big by any means".

The consequence of that is that the money they can afford to spend on initiatives many time zones away overseas isn't nearly enough to make a meaningful impact.  Big money in Australia us not big money in Europe or America. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Have to say though that this season in Super League has probably been the best yet for that, certainly across the top 9 clubs. I know at Hull KR we have beaten all the clubs above us for example, not a match-up you could give me where I'd say "no, we can't win here" and I think there's plenty more teams who could say similar things. Not sure that's been as true in previous years, so does feel like progress.  

I agree it's been a close and exciting season, but I don't think that necessarily equates to high quality. I thoroughly enjoyed this year's cup final and it was a very tight, competitive game, but I didn't think it was the highest quality. After watching some of the NRL this year it feels like we're light years behind IMO.

[Mojo]

15 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

They've cancelled more than one series with pretty weak reasons, so there's only so much we can do. Reality is though in the last decade we've been in a position to win every match. Even before then, we were competitive. I remember attending all 3 Ashes Tests in 2003, the series goes down as a whitewash and yet in every match we only lost by one score and the game was in the balance with 20 seconds on the clock.

Let's face it, Australia could put up 3 different sides which would probably beat England. Their strength in depth is beyond compare. But you're only allowed 13 players on the pitch at once and our best 13 have demonstrated over a long period of time that they can go toe-to-toe with them. That's not the same as winning, but it's certainly competitive.  

The old days of saying the aussies could put up 3 sides to beat any of the top nations including England are over. Name 3 Australian sides without including the pacific island players that are already committed to the island nations.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

3 hours ago, Mojo said:

The old days of saying the aussies could put up 3 sides to beat any of the top nations including England are over. Name 3 Australian sides without including the pacific island players that are already committed to the island nations.

I’m not going to sit here and write down 3 teams for you, but just look at the squad that went over in the Prime Minister’s XIII and tell me they couldn’t beat England. 
 

[Click]

3 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I’m not going to sit here and write down 3 teams for you, but just look at the squad that went over in the Prime Minister’s XIII and tell me they couldn’t beat England. 
 

I think it would be a good game, but that team doesn't look that scary to face.

[Damien]

7 hours ago, Mojo said:

The old days of saying the aussies could put up 3 sides to beat any of the top nations including England are over. Name 3 Australian sides without including the pacific island players that are already committed to the island nations.

I still think they would put up 3 really strong squads, probably more. The great advantage Australia have always had compared to everyone else is great strength in depth and that still is the case. You just don't get the huge drop in quality that other teams face. The good thing for everyone else is that you can only pick your best 17 players on matchday.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 27/09/2023 at 08:53, UTK said:

While I broadly disagree with the reasoning behind Gould's approach here I think it's pretty clear it does involve England. 

There was no real reason to bring the Ashes back to Australia in 2025, to be honest it seems like quite a bizarre decision. I would entirely understand doing it in England, but in the Pacific region you have NZ, Tonga and Samoa that are all now on a competitive level with Australia and each of those 3 Nations are far bigger drawcards for fans in the region. If England wasn't a key part of the "plan" that series would not be happening.

Do you really thing those nations are a bigger draw card to Aussie ticket buyers than GB/England?

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Do you really thing those nations are a bigger draw card to Aussie ticket buyers than GB/England?

I would've thought they are.

Although the average Australian rugby league fan probably knows that Super League exists, they likely know nothing more about it other than 'its an inferior comp compared with NRL'.

The NZ, Samoa, Tonga teams are made up of household names for them, some of them stars. A GB or England team might have 5 or so players that most know of. The rest, just blokes from that inferior comp.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Barley Mow

[UTK]

53 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Do you really thing those nations are a bigger draw card to Aussie ticket buyers than GB/England?

Yes, they've been on relatively level footing for some time now but the major results from both Tonga and Samoa in recent times has developed the cult following of these nations here significantly. 

Tonga is hard to account for in Australia as they overwhelmingly play in NZ because they're generally guaranteed 25-30k there, the exception to this being when GB toured and their matchup landed a sub-10k crowd. The only real comparison to make in Australia is between the 2017 and 2018 "Pacific Tests" held at Campbelltown - the 2017 edition which England participated in was a triple-header compared to the double-header of 2018 and only had a crowd 400 greater than the 2018 edition. Both were basically sold out so not much to go on here anyway, but keep in mind this occurred before Tonga beat the Kangaroos for the first time. 

The extent to which Samoa would outdraw England is contestable because they haven't played in Australia post-2022 WC, the widespread public support here for Samoa was fairly unprecedented for International RL this century. Nonetheless even back to the 2014 4 Nations, Samoa and England drew comparitively for their games v Australia (Samoa 18k in Wollongong, England 20k in Melbourne) and NZ (Samoa 17k in Whangarei, England 16k in Dunedin). Hard to compare in the 2017 WC due to capacity differences yet Samoa sold out their QF v Australia with 13k, while England got 22k for the opener. England got 10k for PNG in the 2017 WC while Samoa got 8k in the 2019 Oceanic Cup. Again, hard to test post-WC Samoa as of yet but the Pacific Championships this year will provide some insight.

 

[UTK]

13 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I would've thought they are.

Although the average Australian rugby league fan probably knows that Super League exists, they likely know nothing more about it other than 'its an inferior comp compare with NRL'.

The NZ, Samoa, Tonga teams are made up of household names for them, some of them stars. A GB or England team might have 5 or so players that most know of. The rest, just blokes from that inferior comp.

This is a prevailing perception that doesn't help that cause, most England crowds are helpfully propped up by the fact that nearly 5% of our population or 1.2 million people were born in the UK so there is a large diaspora to tap into.

Add the fact that it has now been 17 years since England/GB beat Australia and you now have an entire generation that has grown up without England as a genuine threat to Australia (or at least perceived as a threat), but has now observed Tonga beat Australia and Samoa beat England. 

Results are the only way of arresting the decline in interest.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Barley Mow said:

I would've thought they are.

Although the average Australian rugby league fan probably knows that Super League exists, they likely know nothing more about it other than 'its an inferior comp compared with NRL'.

The NZ, Samoa, Tonga teams are made up of household names for them, some of them stars. A GB or England team might have 5 or so players that most know of. The rest, just blokes from that inferior comp.

Maybe when we batter Tonga 3-0 they will sit up and take notice 

[Barley Mow]

11 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Maybe when we batter Tonga 3-0 they will sit up and take notice 

Let's hope so.

[The Rocket]

3 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Maybe when we batter Tonga 3-0 they will sit up and take notice 

It would certainly provide an initial marketing point to League fans over here, promoted something along the lines of " Australia to play visiting English team who recently defeated touring Tongan side 3 - 0 in a home Test series ", and a first Test victory to you blokes could set it alight, but you`ll want to be good.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

4 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Let's hope so.

I'm in the crowd for the first two games 

With my coaching advice from the sidelines it's a formality we'll win 

[Barley Mow]

18 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I'm in the crowd for the first two games 

With my coaching advice from the sidelines it's a formality we'll win 

And I'm going to game three, so we're covered!

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

4 hours ago, The Rocket said:

It would certainly provide an initial marketing point to League fans over here, promoted something along the lines of " Australia to play visiting English team who recently defeated touring Tongan side 3 - 0 in a home Test series ", and a first Test victory to you blokes could set it alight, but you`ll want to be good.

We'll catch them cold first game and win by plenty....next 2 will be contests I think 

[eal]

As someone said previously, the NRL is to Rugby League what MLB is to baseball. Yes, professional baseball is played in other countries, but any international tournament that registers at all in terms of media coverage and importance is run by MLB. Does the RLIF even really exist? Isn't it just one guy with an expense account?

[Treizistance]

On 27/09/2023 at 13:25, Anita Bath said:

The NRL has become the Rugby League equivalent of the NFL, the MLB, the NBA and the NHL, all organisations far bigger than the international scene in their particular sports. They may tinker around with international competitions, but only insofar as the tinkering adds to the value of their own organisations.

The problem at the moment is that international competition in rugby league offers no significant benefit to the NRL.  So its a low priority. The NRL is managing to grow its market substantially without the need for the international ‘competition’.

Nails it. The RFL only have their self to blame for this situation of the NRL streaking ahead to be the dominant stakeholder in the sport. I do feel that similar to the NFL, what is good for NRL is good for the sport of rugby league as a whole.

[langpark]

Just watched the end part. Did I hear that right? Gould, the king of self-interest is suddenly preaching against self-interest? 

[N2022]

On 29/09/2023 at 07:02, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Do you really thing those nations are a bigger draw card to Aussie ticket buyers than GB/England?

Perhaps NZ. Tonga are not very competitive by Aus standards. Samoa final showed they are not the genuine 2nd ranked nation. Eng game prob holds some interest to a patriotic core, but not the appeal it would if we could win RLWC.

[N2022]

On 29/09/2023 at 09:20, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Maybe when we batter Tonga 3-0 they will sit up and take notice 

Tonga really not anything by Aus standards. We need to beat Aus at a World Cup and not in a group with them then winning the comp. Otherwise for all the near misses they won't see us as serious quality.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

22 hours ago, N2022 said:

Tonga really not anything by Aus standards. We need to beat Aus at a World Cup and not in a group with them then winning the comp. Otherwise for all the near misses they won't see us as serious quality.

Disagree 

When we beat Samoa very easily.on the first game of the WC it was a story in Oz 

The Aussies know and respect Tonga now.....think maybe you're not considering the last few years of results.....they've beaten GB, Australia and NZ.....to say they ar enjoying by Aussie standards just isn't true