International squads

[NRLandSL]

34 minutes ago, UTK said:

The Tongan RL "emergence" only really begun in 2017 following the famous defections from AUS/NZ and their WC run. Considering the circumstances of the world in the 6 years following that emergence Tonga is still in the process of capitialising upon that success in respect of their professional pathways. 

This year saw the Inaugural Tonga Schoolboys (u16s) tour of Australia, the side played matches against NRL teams junior representative sides across Australia and exposed their domestic talent to NRL pathways. Following this tour, 4 of those Tongan schoolboys have been signed to NRL clubs and will move across to Australia next season to attend school and participate in those development programs. This is the pathway that needs to be fostered and become regularly established, allowing junior talent to perform in their secondary schools competition and then be placed in the shop window for NRL clubs to further their development to NRL level.

The Hunters/Silktails model is ideal but Tonga (and Samoa realistically) are countries with populations that are far too small to support a side of that nature. The Tongan schoolboys pathway is the correct model for the characteristics of Tonga as a country, it is one that is utilised consistently in NZ RU and even that has indirectly benefited the NRL with a number of domestic Tongans reaching the NRL recently through that pathway (Konrad Hurrell, Solomone Kata, Eliesa Katoa, Viliami Vailea).

That’s Great news, good to hear Tonga is developing nicely. My comment wasn’t only aimed at Tonga though. practically every nation in rugby league besides the 7 that I mentioned have little to no domestic game and use pretty much only heritage players. Think Lebanon, Ireland, Italy, Scotland, Samoa and many more.

But again the blame entirely falls on the IRL for not putting a foot down to help genuinely grow the game. Something as simple as making nations have a secure domestic structure in order the IRL and making every nation field at least 30% (ideally More) Domestic Grown players.

Also Wondering if you know if there is a Samoan schoolboys side yet or just Tonga.

[DavidM]

I’m looking forward to this series . Tonga is an exciting side with plenty of power up front and will be good to watch . Hopefully we have a full strength or as near as possible squad and it’s a really entertaining close tense series … which we win 3-0 

[Damien]

6 hours ago, Mojo said:

Please tell me how that team will struggle in all 3 games?

An exciting team for sure and loads with plenty of size and power as you'd expect. It should make for a great test series.

I do think that Tonga underperformed a little at the last World Cup but that is perhaps because they had set the bar so high. I remember being at the quarter final against Samoa at Warrington and kept thinking that Tonga were going to come good and put their foot down but they just didn't seem to click.

[UTK]

1 hour ago, NRLandSL said:

That’s Great news, good to hear Tonga is developing nicely. My comment wasn’t only aimed at Tonga though. practically every nation in rugby league besides the 7 that I mentioned have little to no domestic game and use pretty much only heritage players. Think Lebanon, Ireland, Italy, Scotland, Samoa and many more.

But again the blame entirely falls on the IRL for not putting a foot down to help genuinely grow the game. Something as simple as making nations have a secure domestic structure in order the IRL and making every nation field at least 30% (ideally More) Domestic Grown players.

Also Wondering if you know if there is a Samoan schoolboys side yet or just Tonga.

You're absolutely right about those countries specified for the most part.

Samoa doesn't have a touring schoolboys side, and indeed doesn't have nearly as strong a domestic game as Tonga at this stage. Tonga has about half the population of Samoa yet has 10 schools participating in u14s, u16s and u18s junior-age group competitions, something like 12 clubs competing in their senior competition (I've done a larger post on the Islands domestic comps before so this is just off the top of my head, might have to find the post when I get time) and various other junior grades operating outside of schools for both boys and girls.

Samoa on the other hand has historically had more inconsistent domestic clubs, generally around 8-10 senior clubs, a handful of schools tournaments, some more consistent 9s competitions and their representative "Island of Origin" series dominates the domestic activity. Funnily enough you might see more Samoan-born players in their national side than Tonga, for this series we have Sualavi Fa'alogo, Stephen Crichton, Young Tonumaipea while Kelma Tuilagi and Tim Lafai played in the WC last year. Despite this I actually can't recall a domestically-produced Samoan NRL player in recent times (happy for someone to correct me), this is related to migration trends which see more first-generation Samoans in the NRL - most these days coming from Victoria which has developed a strong Samoan RL community, and the majority of Victorian NRL juniors were born in Samoa but moved across very young (Fa'alogo, Tonumaipea, Kennar, Tuilagi, Ieremia. Compare this to Tonga who have had several genuine domestic players come through to the NRL despite the previous absence of direct RL pathways but have come through the NZ RU system which we're now replicating - Konrad Hurrell, Solomone Kata, Taniela Otukolo, Eliesa Katoa, Viliami Vailea.

Caveat to all of this for Samoa is that their "emergence" occurred less than 12 months ago, I'm currently unaware of how that success translated to the 2023 domestic season and might have to start doing some digging on that front. I wouldn't be so quick to count out the role heritage-player based success can have, simply because the Tongan national team emergence made significant inroads in Tonga domestically and that directly caused participation increases which provide the opportunities that are now being explored today. Ultimately these heritage players must be supplemented with genuine domestic pathways in order to achieve sustainable player production and results, but as long as these pathways are being developed the makeup of the national side has little relevance.

 

[Click]

Is this the 3rd nation Tyson Frizzell has played for? Wales, Australia and now Tonga.

[Harry Stottle]

7 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

It's a good team. I just think England will have comfortably too much. I think they'll go with Lolohea over Fainu, although Tui hasn't been great for Huddersfield.

That 17 could do with another prop. Physicality is how Tonga stay in this series IMO. One prop on the bench is not going to help them. I really like the starting props, loose forward, and back-rowers.

Tom Amone is of Tongan decent and qualifies through heritage.

The assistant Australian coach doesn't understand why a current dream team selection has been overlooked, and seeing him perform against all the other props in SL this season neither can I, Kristian Wolfe can't see much in him!

[StandOffHalf]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Tom Amone is of Tongan decent and qualifies through heritage.

The assistant Australian coach doesn't understand why a current dream team selection has been overlooked, and seeing him perform against all the other props in SL this season neither can I, Kristian Wolfe can't see much in him!

100% Harry.

Tom Amone and John Asiata would have added immensely to the Tongan squad. Picking UK-based players - particularly ones as good as these two - would have been a wise move.

[NRLandSL]

1 hour ago, UTK said:

You're absolutely right about those countries specified for the most part.

Samoa doesn't have a touring schoolboys side, and indeed doesn't have nearly as strong a domestic game as Tonga at this stage. Tonga has about half the population of Samoa yet has 10 schools participating in u14s, u16s and u18s junior-age group competitions, something like 12 clubs competing in their senior competition (I've done a larger post on the Islands domestic comps before so this is just off the top of my head, might have to find the post when I get time) and various other junior grades operating outside of schools for both boys and girls.

Samoa on the other hand has historically had more inconsistent domestic clubs, generally around 8-10 senior clubs, a handful of schools tournaments, some more consistent 9s competitions and their representative "Island of Origin" series dominates the domestic activity. Funnily enough you might see more Samoan-born players in their national side than Tonga, for this series we have Sualavi Fa'alogo, Stephen Crichton, Young Tonumaipea while Kelma Tuilagi and Tim Lafai played in the WC last year. Despite this I actually can't recall a domestically-produced Samoan NRL player in recent times (happy for someone to correct me), this is related to migration trends which see more first-generation Samoans in the NRL - most these days coming from Victoria which has developed a strong Samoan RL community, and the majority of Victorian NRL juniors were born in Samoa but moved across very young (Fa'alogo, Tonumaipea, Kennar, Tuilagi, Ieremia. Compare this to Tonga who have had several genuine domestic players come through to the NRL despite the previous absence of direct RL pathways but have come through the NZ RU system which we're now replicating - Konrad Hurrell, Solomone Kata, Taniela Otukolo, Eliesa Katoa, Viliami Vailea.

Caveat to all of this for Samoa is that their "emergence" occurred less than 12 months ago, I'm currently unaware of how that success translated to the 2023 domestic season and might have to start doing some digging on that front. I wouldn't be so quick to count out the role heritage-player based success can have, simply because the Tongan national team emergence made significant inroads in Tonga domestically and that directly caused participation increases which provide the opportunities that are now being explored today. Ultimately these heritage players must be supplemented with genuine domestic pathways in order to achieve sustainable player production and results, but as long as these pathways are being developed the makeup of the national side has little relevance.

 

It’s great that your invested into the Tongan domestic game, this is the most I’ve ever found out about it so thanks. My Worry is that, say theoretically one of the Tongan schoolboys you mentioned goes professional and is playing in maybe a second grade comp or is on the fringes of the NRL. His success would be the reward of the growth of the Tongan domestic game and probably the greatest thing it would have achieved. Yet this person would most likely not be playing for Tonga as it unlikely he would be picked over NRL superstars. This of course goes back to the IRL providing no incitements or laws for nations playing domestic players.

But is there an argument that all of these superstars playing for tonga so early on in the growth of domestic game may have set an unlikely standard for Domestic players to reach. What I’m saying is that, even in 10-20 years time when there Domestic game may have reached a stage we’re they consistently producing good quality players, none of these players would ever appear for Tonga unless some laws were introduced.

Edited October 4, 2023 by NRLandSL

[Bamboozle]

11 hours ago, Mojo said:

When I mean reserve graders it's players, it's the players that are pulled from reserve grade when they are needed. Like Nu Brown he's been in reserve grade all year and only played a couple of games towards the end of the season when they needed to rest stars. Danny Levi is another one. Naufahu Whyte and Keono kini have been in and out of the reserve grade.

Keano kini is only 19 but regraded as one of the best young talents in the game while naufahu whyte has only just turned 21 and again is highly regarded, both are being broken into the 1st grade having excelled in the junior  and reserve grade competitions.

[LeytherRob]

Really surprised that Tom Amone hasn't been picked for the Tonga series considering the year he's had. 

 

Mulhern has been added to the England squad which is fully deserved.

 

 

 

[StandOffHalf]

Just now, LeytherRob said:

Really surprised that Tom Amone hasn't been picked for the Tonga series considering the year he's had. 

 

Mulhern has been added to the England squad which is fully deserved.

 

 

They probably barely follow the SL down there. Any SL player is off the radar, unless they are an established international like Tui Lolohea.

[LeytherRob]

7 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

They probably barely follow the SL down there. Any SL player is off the radar, unless they are an established international like Tui Lolohea.

Kristian Woolf spent enough time in SL to know the quality of some players and Paul Wellens is the assistant coach(although not the biggest fan of Leigh). I think to pick Hurrell, Hopoate and Lolohea who have all had very average seasons and leave out a prop that has ,age 3.5k meters this year is just daft.

[StandOffHalf]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

Kristian Woolf spent enough time in SL to know the quality of some players and Paul Wellens is the assistant coach(although not the biggest fan of Leigh). I think to pick Hurrell, Hopoate and Lolohea who have all had very average seasons and leave out a prop that has ,age 3.5k meters this year is just daft.

I agree, but those three are established figures in the Tongan squad. I really think it comes down to a lack of awareness about the comp.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

I agree, but those three are established figures in the Tongan squad. I really think it comes down to a lack of awareness about the comp.

Established and now not very good in the case of two of those, you decide, but as LeytherRob says Wellens is the assistant coach to Wolfe obviously not in an advisory capacity on current player performance.

[StandOffHalf]

35 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Established and now not very good in the case of two of those, you decide, but as LeytherRob says Wellens is the assistant coach to Wolfe obviously not in an advisory capacity on current player performance.

It certainly looks like that. Wellens has probably had minimal contact, and will only really become part of what's going on when the Tongans arrive.

[Mojo]

5 hours ago, Bamboozle said:

Keano kini is only 19 but regraded as one of the best young talents in the game while naufahu whyte has only just turned 21 and again is highly regarded, both are being broken into the 1st grade having excelled in the junior  and reserve grade competitions.

Keano kini is a very good player. Him and Oloapu were two of the best players out of the Australian Schools last year. Kini might be the Kiwis fullback at the next world cup

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Established and now not very good in the case of two of those, you decide, but as LeytherRob says Wellens is the assistant coach to Wolfe obviously not in an advisory capacity on current player performance.

Tom's going home to see his kids ( 2 ) for the next 6 weeks , so as much as I'd love to see him run out for Tonga , he needs the rest 

The interesting thing with John is he's already repesented Tonga against Samoa , and Samoa against Tonga 

[NRLandSL]

2 hours ago, Mojo said:

Keano kini is a very good player. Him and Oloapu were two of the best players out of the Australian Schools last year. Kini might be the Kiwis fullback at the next world cup

Yeah Kini’s fantastic I first watched him last year playing for a Titans development team and now his already in the first team. A few weeks ago I watched him in the Q-Cup final and he looked unplayable at only 19. He’s rapid and a massive threat of the kick return or when in space, really talented youngster.

[Mojo]

29 minutes ago, NRLandSL said:

Yeah Kini’s fantastic I first watched him last year playing for a Titans development team and now his already in the first team. A few weeks ago I watched him in the Q-Cup final and he looked unplayable at only 19. He’s rapid and a massive threat of the kick return or when in space, really talented youngster.

For me the next best fullback on the rise is Joash Papali'i for the bulldogs under 20s. He might be the answer for the bulldogs spine next season. They should leave Critchon at center.

[NRLandSL]

49 minutes ago, Mojo said:

For me the next best fullback on the rise is Joash Papali'i for the bulldogs under 20s. He might be the answer for the bulldogs spine next season. They should leave Critchon at center.

Haven’t seen too much of him but I’ll keep my eye open.

[Sports Prophet]

There are a few disappointing drop outs. It demonstrates to me the difficult journey still required for the international game to reach the status many crave.

JT choosing to box instead of Tonga was news to me. I would love to know more about this.

Latrelle making himself unavailable for Kangaroos, yet appearing in the Koori event last week.

These are two very high profile players for their respective nations which appear to have simply chosen not to play.

I suspect a few other injuries would be played through if the these international fixtures were a little more high profile. I think this will come with some consistency in the scheduling.

The old idea of a continental cup evenly placed between WC years is still the best option in my opinion. I don’t think the “Pacific Cup” has enough credibility yet and it’s a shame the IRL couldn’t broker a deal with respective nations where they could organise a high profile event every two years.

[Dirkgee]

48 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

There are a few disappointing drop outs. It demonstrates to me the difficult journey still required for the international game to reach the status many crave.

JT choosing to box instead of Tonga was news to me. I would love to know more about this.

Latrelle making himself unavailable for Kangaroos, yet appearing in the Koori event last week.

These are two very high profile players for their respective nations which appear to have simply chosen not to play.

I suspect a few other injuries would be played through if the these international fixtures were a little more high profile. I think this will come with some consistency in the scheduling.

The old idea of a continental cup evenly placed between WC years is still the best option in my opinion. I don’t think the “Pacific Cup” has enough credibility yet and it’s a shame the IRL couldn’t broker a deal with respective nations where they could organise a high profile event every two years.

Given the relationship between Aboriginals and Australia I don't think you can criticise Latrell that much for preferring to play in an Aboriginal competition. 

[UTK]

[UTK]

That is a very strong Kumuls side, only really Xavier Coates missing and he struggled to finish the season with his injury. 

Predicted side: 

1. Alex Johnston
2. Nene MacDonald
3. Justin Olam
4. Zac Laybutt
5. Robert Derby 
6. Kyle Laybutt
7. Lachlan Lam
8. Epel Kapinias 
9. Edwin Ipape
10. Wellington Albert
11. Nixon Putt
12. Rhys Martin
13. Jack De Belin
14. Judah Rimbu
15. Jacob Alick
16. Liam Horne
17. Dan Russell

18. Rodrick Tai
19. Benji Kot
20. Junior Rop
21. Valentine Richard
 

[Mojo]

18 hours ago, Click said:

Is this the 3rd nation Tyson Frizzell has played for? Wales, Australia and now Tonga.

Mulitalo did it before for USA, Samoa and the kiwis