Question - the Northern Union

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Trojan said:

I'm sure if there had been any enthusiasm in North East England that the NU would have welcomed them with open arms.

I don't think this is the case at all. The Northern Union showed a great reluctance to really be anything more than just Yorkshire and Lancashire. From their point of view that's where the big clubs were and that's where the money was. In a time when travel was much more difficult Northern Union clubs just didn't want the expense or hassle of excess travel. Areas like the North East, Midlands and Wales were the London, Cornwall and France of today.

I am certain the Northern Union could have brought many more RU clubs and areas across if it so desired, it didn't, and the game has suffered the consequences ever since.

[Hopping Mad]

54 minutes ago, Trojan said:

The germ of the Northern Union was in the Yorkshire Senior Competition, which was a league comp. allowed by the Yorkshire RU on the condition that once it was established, there would be P&R for other Yorkshire clubs, when the time came the Senior comp renegued on the deal.  Top Lancashire sides were having trouble with the Lancs RU over paying players and transfers.  The two sets of clubs had been meeting for some time with a breakaway in view.   When it became obvious that the two Unions would not accede to what the top clubs required, they formally broke away.  The RFU put up awesome barriers to other clubs joining the NU and scared them off.  There was a move in South Wales where the culture was similar to industrial Yorks and Lancs, but those in charge could see that Wales would lose its international status and become just another "county" like the other two, plus clubs like Cardiff would lose money spinning fixtures against the likes of Bristol and Gloucester so they carried on as before.  As Tony Collins said, they pretended not to be paying the top players and Twickenham pretended to believe them.

I'm sure if there had been any enthusiasm in North East England that the NU would have welcomed them with open arms.  Clearly there wasn't. And as has been stated above soccer was making great inroads in the North East, and West Yorkshire.   Leeds City (forerunners of United) Bradford City, Bradford and Huddersfield all trace their founding to within 10 years of 1895.

 

Halifax Town FC (1911) weren't far behind. Liversedge FC (1910) were established after the demise of Northern Union founder members Liversedge RFC. Guiseley FC (1909) also were founded in the period between 1895 and the Great War.

In the North East, in 1908, West Hartlepool switched from rugby [union] to football, becoming Hartlepool United FC.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Hopping Mad

[iffleyox]

10 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

In the North East, in 1908, West Hartlepool switched from rugby union to football, becoming Hartlepool United FC.

Hartlepools Utd until 1968 - literally a union of the (multiple) Hartlepools...

The West Hartlepool RFC of today are a continuation (at about level 7, of the old level 1 side, which was itself a phoenix from the original West becoming Hartlepools Utd in 1908...*

 

*a friend of my dad's was a big West fan, so I have watched them in the late 80s. At this point I will open my weak lemon drink, to quote Fist of Fun...

Edited November 14, 2023 by iffleyox

[Hopping Mad]

7 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

Hartlepools Utd until 1968 - literally a union of the (multiple) Hartlepools...

The West Hartlepool RFC of today are a phoenix from the pro side, which was itself a phoenix from the original Wests becoming Hartlepools Utd in 1908...*

 

*my godfather was a big Wests fan, so I have watched them in the late 80s. At this point I will open my weak lemon drink, to quote Fist of Fun...

Everybody (well, the few with an interest) called them West, rather than Wests, when I worked on Teesside. Went to Brierton Lane, a tidy ground, a couple of times. Their present ground, Brinkburn, is very poor.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Hopping Mad

[iffleyox]

23 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Everybody (well, the few with an interest) called them West, rather than Wests, when I worked on Teesside. Went to Brierton Lane, a tidy ground, a couple of times. Their present ground, Brinkburn, is very poor.

See my edit - I was clearly subconsciously trying to keep the thread on-topic and think ing of Wests Tigers…. Bizarre

[Hopping Mad]

8 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

See my edit - I was clearly subconsciously trying to keep the thread on-topic and think ing of Wests Tigers…. Bizarre

I had a feeling that was it.

[JonM]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I don't think this is the case at all. The Northern Union showed a great reluctance to really be anything more than just Yorkshire and Lancashire. From their point of view that's where the big clubs were and that's where the money was. In a time when travel was much more difficult Northern Union clubs just didn't want the expense or hassle of excess travel. Areas like the North East, Midlands and Wales were the London, Cornwall and France of today.

I am certain the Northern Union could have brought many more RU clubs and areas across if it so desired, it didn't, and the game has suffered the consequences ever since.

Important to remember that this was the pre-automobile era. Teams travelled to away games by train, with tram / horse and cart for the final miles in some cases. I've seen photos of an away team travelling to Bramley by horse powered transport as late as the 1930s. Widnes travelled to Barrow by boat in the early days and presumably other clubs did too.

The football league had no southern teams in its first few seasons, then just Arsenal and eventually Luton. It was only in 1905 that more London clubs joined and there was no southern winner until the 1930s.

Edited November 14, 2023 by JonM
Remove errant apostrophe

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, JonM said:

Important to remember that this was the pre-automobile era. Teams travelled to away games by train, with tram / horse and cart for the final miles in some cases. I've seen photos of an away team travelling to Bramley by horse powered transport as late as the 1930s. Widnes travelled to Barrow by boat in the early days and presumably other clubs did too.

The football league had no southern teams in its first few seasons, then just Arsenal and eventually Luton. It was only in 1905 that more London clubs joined and there was no southern winner until the 1930s.

Yeah that was my point when I said travel was much more difficult.

[The Masked Poster]

20 minutes ago, JonM said:

Important to remember that this was the pre-automobile era. Teams travelled to away games by train, with tram / horse and cart for the final miles in some cases. I've seen photos of an away team travelling to Bramley by horse powered transport as late as the 1930s. Widnes travelled to Barrow by boat in the early days and presumably other clubs did too.

The football league had no southern teams in its first few seasons, then just Arsenal and eventually Luton. It was only in 1905 that more London clubs joined and there was no southern winner until the 1930s.

After splitting from Bradford FC, Bradford Park Avenue applied - and were accepted - into the southern league. I believe they played a few seasons in that division before joining the relevant northern division. I imagine they experienced considerable travel difficulties too. 

[Barley Mow]

17 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

After splitting from Bradford FC, Bradford Park Avenue applied - and were accepted - into the southern league. I believe they played a few seasons in that division before joining the relevant northern division. I imagine they experienced considerable travel difficulties too. 

Bradford PA were Bradford FC, there was no split to form them. The formal name was Bradford FC and they were informally called Park Avenue (after their ground) to distinguish them from Bradford City. The current club, reformed in the 80s or 90s is formally "Bradford (Park Avenue)".

Bradford FC left the Northern Union in 1907 trying to emulate Manningham, who the Football League had invited to join their competition (before they'd even played a single game of association football) in order to gain a foothold for their code in West Yorkshire - Manningham joined as Bradford City AFC.

When BPA applied to join the Football League, they were turned down - but Fulham had been accepted that year, so the Southern League offered BPA the space they now had, to replace Fulham.

After a single year in the Southern League, BPA were accepted into the Football League.

Manningham & Bradford FC converting to association football left the city without a senior rugby club and Bradford Northern were therefore formed - Their name indicating that they played Northern Union Rugby Football, so that they weren't confused with Bradford FC or Bradford City.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Barley Mow

[The Masked Poster]

1 hour ago, Barley Mow said:

Bradford PA were Bradford FC, there was no split to form them. The formal name was Bradford FC and they were informally called Park Avenue (after their ground) to distinguish them from Bradford City. The current club, reformed in the 80s or 90s is formally "Bradford (Park Avenue)".

Bradford FC left the Northern Union in 1907 trying to emulate Manningham, who the Football League had invited to join their competition (before they'd even played a single game of association football) in order to gain a foothold for their code in West Yorkshire - Manningham joined as Bradford City AFC.

When BPA applied to join the Football League, they were turned down - but Fulham had been accepted that year, so the Southern League offered BPA the space they now had, to replace Fulham.

After a single year in the Southern League, BPA were accepted into the Football League.

Manningham & Bradford FC converting to association football left the city without a senior rugby club and Bradford Northern were therefore formed - Their name indicating that they played Northern Union Rugby Football, so that they weren't confused with Bradford FC or Bradford City.

Just to add to that, many of the original people involved there, opted to go back to the RFU. They joined up with local side Bingley to form Bradford and Bingley RUFC, who I believe, still exist. 

Also Northern were not just formed so that the city had a rugby club, they were members of Bradford FC who opted to remain in the Northern Union. They considered the formation of BPA as "the great betrayal" and the soccer boys should be the ones to concede. 

[Usera]

17 hours ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

I wonder if anyone can help with this question.  When the Rugby Union/League split happened and that group of northern teams formed the northern union - why were no teams from the north east of England involved?

I think we are all aware Rugby League has minimal foothold in the north east, Magic Weekend aside it hasn’t been very successful if we are honest.  Rugby Union is somewhat more successful with a reasonable amateur foothold and the top division Newcastle Falcons team (however football dominates all in the north east by some margin).

Some of the amateur Rugby clubs in the north east have history going back into the 19th century, pre dating the league/union split.  It seems strange to me that the north east was not involved in the Northern Union with similar demographics to Yorkshire/Lancashire.  I’ve attempted a little research myself but no luck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Championship_(rugby_league)

 

Durham and Northumberland did compete in the County Championship  for a couple of seasons from 1902-1904. Out of interest, Cheshire still had a side then as well.

[Coastal_Geordie]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

When looking at this I came across this essay on RU in the North East, and discusses the Northern Union and that touches on Hartlepool. This may also help a lot of your questions @Coastal_Geordie too:

https://insight.cumbria.ac.uk/id/eprint/6656/1/Huggins_PrinciplesPragmatismAnd.pdf

Very good find with some interesting history of the north east in there.

[EggFace]

Despite being a Football dominated area the North East has always had good  scene for Rugby Union and also Cricket with teams like the Hartlepool West/Rovers/BBOB/TDSOB/Old Boys/Seaton Carew.Then the likes of Tyndale/Blaydon/Westoe South Shields/Percy Park/Gosforth and Gosforth Northern etc.

I read the excellent book of The 1905 Originals by Bob Howitt and the crowds flocked to watch then and the north east got 8,000 AB's against Durham, 13,000 for against a combined Hartlepool and 11,000 against Northumberland at my local club Percy Park Tynemouth.

Edited November 14, 2023 by EggFace

[Midlands hobo]

11 hours ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

And at that time the Jonny Wilkinson Falcons were regularly getting over 10k attendance, often over 15k.  Now they scrape 5k even at Premiership level.  You can see why the Thunder have struggled to get 1k for lower league.

Yea but they bought a title. Shipped in some of the biggest names in the game to get that crowd. 

Rob Andrew was Wilkinson's mentor at flyhalf they had tuigamala (spelling?) On the wing who they paid serious wedge for. Geordies love a winning team. Poor results poor crowd.

[Veridical]

9 hours ago, JonM said:

Important to remember that this was the pre-automobile era. Teams travelled to away games by train, with tram / horse and cart for the final miles in some cases. I've seen photos of an away team travelling to Bramley by horse powered transport as late as the 1930s. Widnes travelled to Barrow by boat in the early days and presumably other clubs did too.

The minutes from the meeting at the George show the NRFU were reluctant to admit Leigh because the town lacked a posting station.

[Futtocks]

11 hours ago, Eddie said:

The Byker Groves would be a great name for a RL team. 

The mighty Spuggies!

[EggFace]

12 hours ago, Damien said:

When looking at this I came across this essay on RU in the North East, and discusses the Northern Union and that touches on Hartlepool. This may also help a lot of your questions @Coastal_Geordie too:

https://insight.cumbria.ac.uk/id/eprint/6656/1/Huggins_PrinciplesPragmatismAnd.pdf

Reading that breaks my heart how a what if happened in the 1880's and proof to show that the RFU were a bunch of Ebenezer's and still a shower of Karmicheal Hunts.

Just reading how the RFU treated Jimmy Peters the first Black person to play for England and was was not picked for the England team when the touring Boks toured :(. To rub more salt in the wounds was the poor ###### lost 3 fingers at a work accident and his Plymouth club arranged a testimonial for him as the injury left him unable to work but the RFU viewed it the benefit payment as a act of professionalism and banned him for Rugby Union forever.

In 1912 following an enquiry into allegations of professionalism the RFU expelled/suspanded 38 players and officials and Jimmy Peters was one of them.Plymouth RFC was clsed down.

The above is from the World Rugby Museum website and makes you wonder what the hell was/is still wrong with the powers of world/English Rugby Union as it's like they get a massive Hard On from shotting themselves in the foot again and again and again.

 

[sweaty craiq]

9 hours ago, Veridical said:

The minutes from the meeting at the George show the NRFU were reluctant to admit Leigh because the town lacked a posting station.

But ended up with 2 teams in the old borough, Tyldesley and Leigh 

[Griff]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:19, Damien said:

I don't think this is the case at all. The Northern Union showed a great reluctance to really be anything more than just Yorkshire and Lancashire. From their point of view that's where the big clubs were and that's where the money was. In a time when travel was much more difficult Northern Union clubs just didn't want the expense or hassle of excess travel. Areas like the North East, Midlands and Wales were the London, Cornwall and France of today.

I am certain the Northern Union could have brought many more RU clubs and areas across if it so desired, it didn't, and the game has suffered the consequences ever since.

Whilst there's some truth in this, I'm not convinced that this is so, especially in Wales, where professionalism was simply overlooked by the RFU as exemplified by the Arthur Gould fiasco.  The RFU could have refused to play Wales, as they later ostracised France, but they didn't.  It was a pragmatic decision.  If they had, it's quite likely that the Welsh clubs and, probably clubs in the south west, would have joined the Northern Union.

We'll never know the full story, of course.

[Coastal_Geordie]

17 hours ago, Midlands hobo said:

Yea but they bought a title. Shipped in some of the biggest names in the game to get that crowd. 

Rob Andrew was Wilkinson's mentor at flyhalf they had tuigamala (spelling?) On the wing who they paid serious wedge for. Geordies love a winning team. Poor results poor crowd.

Inga the winger former Wigan star, yes.  That team was bankrolled at the advent of legal Union professionalism by John Hall.  Geordies are fantastic supporters - of football - but no other sport really.  Your right the Falcons support had a glory supporting element and never really had the base of actual interest in the sport.

[EggFace]

10 minutes ago, Coastal_Geordie said:

Inga the winger former Wigan star, yes.  That team was bankrolled at the advent of legal Union professionalism by John Hall.  Geordies are fantastic supporters - of football - but no other sport really.  Your right the Falcons support had a glory supporting element and never really had the base of actual interest in the sport.

Newcastle is/was a great place but it's always been Football and other sports like Rugby,Cricket,Boxing and even music comes a very sad 2nd.

I envy places like Leeds, Hull, Leicester and Limerick etc.

[Trojan]

Certainly when I worked in Wigan, despite there being a league soccer club there, many of my workmates were Bolton or Blackburn fans.

[Trojan]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:19, Damien said:

I don't think this is the case at all. The Northern Union showed a great reluctance to really be anything more than just Yorkshire and Lancashire. From their point of view that's where the big clubs were and that's where the money was. In a time when travel was much more difficult Northern Union clubs just didn't want the expense or hassle of excess travel. Areas like the North East, Midlands and Wales were the London, Cornwall and France of today.

I am certain the Northern Union could have brought many more RU clubs and areas across if it so desired, it didn't, and the game has suffered the consequences ever since.

I always thought that having broke the "amateur" dam that many clubs would want to join the NU as professional clubs. After all that's what happened with the Football League.

With regard to amateurism I was amused by an incident recounted by  Jonathan Davies.  He was invited to give a talk before the Union Varsity game, in 1988 and received an envelope with £400 in cash to cover "expenses." A year later he did the same gig and got a cheque for £250 when he asked about the discrepancy he was told that as an amateur he'd been taking a risk, as a pro he wasn't.   

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Trojan said:

I always thought that having broke the "amateur" dam that many clubs would want to join the NU as professional clubs. After all that's what happened with the Football League.

With regard to amateurism I was amused by an incident recounted by  Jonathan Davies.  He was invited to give a talk before the Union Varsity game, in 1988 and received an envelope with £400 in cash to cover "expenses." A year later he did the same gig and got a cheque for £250 when he asked about the discrepancy he was told that as an amateur he'd been taking a risk, as a pro he wasn't.   

Shamateurism at its best that!