The true sleeping giants of the game

[OMEGA]

5 hours ago, M j M said:

The only clubs which can realistically lay claim to be Sleeping Giants are Widnes and Bradford IMO.

I don’t get the Bradford being a TRADITIONALLY big club claim, they had a spell in the early years of SL mainly built on an idea stolen from Keighley with players they couldn’t afford. They got great crowds during that period but historically Bradford (Northern) were no better supported than most clubs in the game like Halifax, Huddersfield, Oldham etc. They went bust twice and had to be bailed out by the other clubs in the league who gave them players so they could continue to play.

Bullmania was the exception not the norm and I can’t ever see them reaching those heights ever again

[Click]

Just now, OMEGA said:

I don’t get the Bradford being a TRADITIONALLY big club claim, they had a spell in the early years of SL mainly built on an idea stolen from Keighley with players they couldn’t afford. They got great crowds during that period but historically Bradford (Northern) were no better supported than most clubs in the game like Halifax, Huddersfield, Oldham etc. They went bust twice and had to be bailed out by the other clubs in the league who gave them players so they could continue to play.

Bullmania was the exception not the norm and I can’t ever see them reaching those heights ever again

It's one thing to say you can't see them reaching those heights again, but they have hit those heights once, I think that is the point RE: Bradford compared to those other clubs, I don't believe any of the ones you have named have ever achieved the crowds Bradford have in those years.

I have no idea if they stole an idea from Keighley, but if they did, they did it better. 

They could potentially get big figures attendance wise if they weren't in the state that they are in, they still get big figures in comparison to others in the same league as them.

[OMEGA]

If we are going to throw the kitchen sink at a region it must be Cumbria!

They are the dirty secret, the elephant in the room and the relative who nobody wants to turn up to the wedding! Yet they are by far the region with the most potential, as Mel Gibson said, “unite the clans and we shall have a Superleague club of our own”

[OMEGA]

10 minutes ago, Click said:

It's one thing to say you can't see them reaching those heights again, but they have hit those heights once, I think that is the point RE: Bradford compared to those other clubs, I don't believe any of the ones you have named have ever achieved the crowds Bradford have in those years.

I have no idea if they stole an idea from Keighley, but if they did, they did it better. 

They could potentially get big figures attendance wise if they weren't in the state that they are in, they still get big figures in comparison to others in the same league as them.

But they achieved that in a set of unique circumstances and did so by acquiring players and therefore their success spending money they didn’t have!

Oldham could have signed the entire Kangaroo team and won everything, built up their brand and attendances but then gone bust after 6 years because in reality they couldn’t ever afford it and the success was built on sand 

Edited November 24, 2023 by OMEGA

[dboy]

Yes, Cougarmania was quite the thing.

Shameful how that club was treated!

I do dislike Bulls - some of it may be jealousy, but definitely it's distaste at how their recent mis-managements & fan-fleecing, but of course, isn't what we all want for our sport 12, 14, 16 Bulls-style clubs (but without the foundations of sand)?

[Click]

8 minutes ago, OMEGA said:

But they achieved that in a set of unique circumstances and did so by acquiring players and therefore their success spending money they didn’t have!

Oldham could have signed the entire Kangaroo team and won everything, built up their brand and attendances but then gone bust after 6 years because in reality they couldn’t ever afford it and the success was built on sand 

I am not sure signing good players and winning things is all that unique in terms of circumstances, every club tries to do it to a certain extent.

Bradford overextended for whatever reason - But if they actually sorted out the club, the ground, etc. Then they have the fan base to be able to sustain a certain level - and with a money man behind them, they could IMO get similar crowds to other top teams in SL.

I have no idea if Oldham had signed a bunch of world class players and won everything if they would have got big crowds like Bradford used to get - Have they had a period of their history that could indicate they could get those attendances? Just having a winning team for a few years doesn't necessarily guarantee big crowds. 

[The Blues Ox]

18 minutes ago, Click said:

They could potentially get big figures attendance wise if they weren't in the state that they are in, they still get big figures in comparison to others in the same league as them.

They get big figures on paper compared to other teams, reality is that they are just another team struggling to get 2k people in the ground on match days.

[Click]

1 minute ago, The Blues Ox said:

They get big figures on paper compared to other teams, reality is that they are just another team struggling to get 2k people in the ground on match days.

Perhaps it is just my memory, I am not going to go searching through attendance figures, etc. or looking through pictures to count actual numbers in the stadium. 

But Bradford, ever since London has been in the championship, has definitely been one of the bigger fanbases that we have come up against, and certainly in terms of away fans coming down to London. But that is just my personal experience. Those bullmania years may have come crashing down in flames but it has still resulted in a bigger fanbase than other Championship teams from what I recall.

[JM2010]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

They’re a great club and are doing well but Halifax (population 88,000, many of whom don’t know RL exists) will never average 8,000 or anywhere near it, even if they win super league. 

I’m from Halifax and there is a lot of interest in RL. The Calderdale area is closer to 200 000 with plenty of interest in places like Elland

[dboy]

23 minutes ago, Click said:

Perhaps it is just my memory, I am not going to go searching through attendance figures, etc. or looking through pictures to count actual numbers in the stadium. 

But Bradford, ever since London has been in the championship, has definitely been one of the bigger fanbases that we have come up against, and certainly in terms of away fans coming down to London. But that is just my personal experience. Those bullmania years may have come crashing down in flames but it has still resulted in a bigger fanbase than other Championship teams from what I recall.

I guess we are aiming for 16 Bulls-style clubs, that simply don't go bust because they are running unsustainable business models.

I guess we'll see, in time, the impact of IMG.

[Click]

11 minutes ago, dboy said:

I guess we are aiming for 16 Bulls-style clubs, that simply don't go bust because they are running unsustainable business models.

I guess we'll see, in time, the impact of IMG.

Did I once say that I was advocating for clubs running unsustainable business model? 

I am not sure why it is hard to acknowledge that during their period of running that unsustainable business model, they were one of the biggest clubs in RL in terms of their fanbase.

If by some miracle, and they could run a sustainable business model similar to the likes of Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, etc then they would most likely rival those clubs for attendances if the stadia allows.

[dboy]

5 minutes ago, Click said:

Did I once say that I was advocating for clubs running unsustainable business model? 

I am not sure why it is hard to acknowledge that during their period of running that unsustainable business model, they were one of the biggest clubs in RL in terms of their fanbase.

If by some miracle, and they could run a sustainable business model similar to the likes of Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, etc then they would most likely rival those clubs for attendances if the stadia allows.

? I'm not sure why you are chipping at me. I reckon I was in agreement with you.

We have to change how we measure successful clubs - it can't be done by finals and silverware - that's a finite pool.

Fans, presence, image, impact is what we need to measure.

######, I've turned into IMG.

[EggFace]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

They’re a great club and are doing well but Halifax (population 88,000, many of whom don’t know RL exists) will never average 8,000 or anywhere near it, even if they win super league. 

I small place like Halifax and CC champions in the past you think everyone knows they have a Rugby League club ?

[dboy]

2 minutes ago, EggFace said:

I small place like Halifax and CC champions in the past you think everyone knows they have a Rugby League club ?

In a thread about "sleeping giants", if clubs like Widnes, Bulls, Fax aren't the answer, who is?

[EggFace]

5 hours ago, Rene_Artois said:

I like your optimism regarding Donny. Average crowds in the region of 2000 plus are entirely possible. With what I think will be a competitive team that's achievable. I think at this point everyone at the club will be happy with that.

Never mentioned Doncaster Rugby as they get 1,000 plus.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

I’m from Halifax and there is a lot of interest in RL. The Calderdale area is closer to 200 000 with plenty of interest in places like Elland

Interest in Halifax Panthers, or RL in general?

[dboy]

15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Interest in Halifax Panthers, or RL in general?

Isn't the trick to turn general interest, into Panthers interest?

Aren't we talking about awakening potential giants?

Or do we remain parochial?

[JM2010]

17 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Interest in Halifax Panthers, or RL in general?

More RL in general. Lots of football fans like everywhere but they also have a passing interest in RL. The area also produces a lot of professional players, mainly through the Siddal club

[Eddie]

7 minutes ago, dboy said:

Isn't the trick to turn general interest, into Panthers interest?

Aren't we talking about awakening potential giants?

Or do we remain parochial?

Sleeping giants and potential giants are different things, but I was just asking if the interest was in Halifax or RL in general, as it’s relevant to the conversation about whether they could average 8,000. If they already support Leeds or Bradford they won’t necessarily become Halifax fans. 

[The Masked Poster]

What is this nonsense? Keighley did not “invent” the sporting razzamataz, if anyone did it was American sport. Keighley were as much stealing things as Bradford, not that anyone was actually stealing anything, just using ideas. 

[dboy]

11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Sleeping giants and potential giants are different things, but I was just asking if the interest was in Halifax or RL in general, as it’s relevant to the conversation about whether they could average 8,000. If they already support Leeds or Bradford they won’t necessarily become Halifax fans. 

It's a thread about sleeping giants of the game.

I'm certainly old enough to remember Fax as being a giant of the game - maybe the game was too small then?

Isn't that the point? 

The game can't be bigger and better, until our heartlands are bigger and better.

I can see how that can be read, but believe me, I'm an expansionist, not a traditionalist.

Viva Cornwall, Newcastle, Catalans, Toulouse, Edinburgh, Dublin - but they need our heartland base to be rock solid.

Edited November 24, 2023 by dboy

[iffleyox]

22 minutes ago, The Masked Poster said:

What is this nonsense? Keighley did not “invent” the sporting razzamataz, if anyone did it was American sport. Keighley were as much stealing things as Bradford, not that anyone was actually stealing anything, just using ideas. 

Hope and Glory (great read by the way, if you find yourself in need of a self Christmas present) in any case IIRC suggests that thanks should really go to the true RL innovators….

 

 

Kent Invicta.

Edited November 24, 2023 by iffleyox

[OMEGA]

2 hours ago, Click said:

I am not sure signing good players and winning things is all that unique in terms of circumstances, every club tries to do it to a certain extent.

Bradford overextended for whatever reason - But if they actually sorted out the club, the ground, etc. Then they have the fan base to be able to sustain a certain level - and with a money man behind them, they could IMO get similar crowds to other top teams in SL.

I have no idea if Oldham had signed a bunch of world class players and won everything if they would have got big crowds like Bradford used to get - Have they had a period of their history that could indicate they could get those attendances? Just having a winning team for a few years doesn't necessarily guarantee big crowds. 

I’m talking about the unique time of Superleagues inception, with a big push from SKY who marketed it as another Premier League and even used Premier League players in the adverts. Unique in that many clubs used Rock Bands to entertain the crowds and had stilt walkers, jugglers and other street entertainers at every match.

The Bulls used Cougermania to make the most of all that and complimented it with a team full of top class players on big money which created a rivalry with the Rhinos when in reality the club couldn’t afford any of that!

[DEANO]

Everyone seems to forget that Catalans are only there because they were protected in their infancy. With protection and a backer Donny York or anyone could make a fist of it

[dboy]

20 minutes ago, DEANO said:

Everyone seems to forget that Catalans are only there because they were protected in their infancy. With protection and a backer Donny York or anyone could make a fist of it

 

How do you conclude that anyone has forgotten that and what is the relevance?