Thur 22nd Feb: SL: Hull KR v Leeds Rhinos KO 8pm (Sky)

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

@MattSantos

Stats are on the SL site now. Hall was top metre maker with 160m.

Click on the match panel and you get detailed stats. 

Handley got 191m

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Handley got 191m

Good spot, it won't let you sort the columns on my phone so just eyeballed it. 

But if we removed his 70m from his try, then Hall is top

[Chrispmartha]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Good spot, it won't let you sort the columns on my phone so just eyeballed it. 

But if we removed his 70m from his try, then Hall is top

Well if we remove 12 points from Hull KR Leeds won

 

Ash Handley is going to have a great season, he’s scored two try of the year contenders already.

[GeordieSaint]

33 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I disagree, I thought it was a bad tackle, "try-saver" shouldn't be mentioned. In fact, you can argue a try saving foul tackle should be a penalty try. 

He hit the ball carrier in the head - intentionally or not. You can’t do that. 10mins in the bin last year. 10mins in the bin this year. The right decision by the officials. 

I thought the officials were good last night. The only thing they got wrong was Donaldson. 

[GeordieSaint]

Enjoyed the game last night. Good win by Hull KR. Leeds continue to fail to deliver under Smith. Another superb try by Handley. It’s going to be an interesting season.

Edited February 23 by GeordieSaint

[sentoffagain2]

    KR's very good short kicking game won them the game,very difficult to defend in any conditions.Thought on the whole Leeds defended better than last season and they will be exciting to watch with the ball when the grounds dry up.Would have them close to KR in the League finishing positions between 4th and 7th.KR have made remarkable progress since their spell in The Championship and are now a PROPER SL club with a tidy ground fit for purpose,ie creating a great atmosphere.As for Donaldsons card i agree it could have been red but although very careless i don't think a lot of force was applied.Certainly as bad or worse than Watts red last week though.

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not been the start Smith would want.

Leeds have played 2 sides who are probably going to finish somewhere between 5th and 11th respectively and Leeds still not looking convincing either in victory or defeat. 

Miller not being able to play was a big blow last night I thought he was a lively positive in the Salford game. Likewise losing Lisone for 10 won't help given he is probably our most in form middle at the moment.

This isn't a blistering start by any means. And our next 3 fixtures, Catalans at home, Leigh away and Saints at home don't seem to be much easier...

I think you have a coach who talks a good game and his face fits with the powers that be at Headingley. You might be stuck with him for a good while yet.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Gooleboy said:

I think you have a coach who talks a good game and his face fits with the powers that be at Headingley. You might be stuck with him for a good while yet.

I get that, last year was bad enough. Having a face that fits seems to be the most important thing at the Rhinos sadly.

We could seriously end up in a 1 win in our first 5 games scenario though which really wouldn't be good enough. Whether that would cost Smith his job...

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, GeordieSaint said:

He hit the ball carrier in the head - intentionally or not. You can’t do that. 10mins in the bin last year. 10mins in the bin this year. The right decision by the officials. 

I thought the officials were good last night. The only thing they got wrong was Donaldson. 

If anyone can watch that tackle reverse angle replay (4m28s) and not see quite a bad high tackle then I'm baffled tbh. There is no attempt to make a legal tackle, and contact is pretty direct. The only mitigation the refs offer is that it wasn't too much force, but I think that is being generous too. For Smith to claim he dove is absolutely pathetic, and I'd be furious if I was th Hull KR player. 

 

[Dave T]

As an aside, how good is it that it i so easy to find high quality highlights in multiple places for these discussions!

[Click]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

As an aside, how good is it that it i so easy to find high quality highlights in multiple places for these discussions!

Pft, I prefer the grainy-ness of someone using their phone to make a video of their TV screen.

[Gooleboy]

44 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I get that, last year was bad enough. Having a face that fits seems to be the most important thing at the Rhinos sadly.

We could seriously end up in a 1 win in our first 5 games scenario though which really wouldn't be good enough. Whether that would cost Smith his job...

It would be hard to see him survive that scenario, but you may win at least one of those three games.

[Human Punk]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

He hit the ball carrier in the head - intentionally or not. You can’t do that. 10mins in the bin last year. 10mins in the bin this year. The right decision by the officials. 

I thought the officials were good last night. The only thing they got wrong was Donaldson. 

Agreed, was closer to a red than no card. And for those arguing it wasn't a yellow, shouldn't there have been a yellow for the other Leeds player next along who tackled the HKR player without the ball? That's a 'professional foul' in the circumstances and every bit as bad as Hiku's offence.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the cards, the main conclusion we can draw is that Liam Watts got a very bad deal.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

It would be hard to see him survive that scenario, but you may win at least one of those three games.

Indeed.

If we don't improve dramatically I'm reminded of Leeds United under Jesse Marsch, where each rare win and moment of brilliance seemed to give him a lifeline when it should have been ended much earlier. I'm not at the stage of wishing for us to lose to see him gone, but baring in mind last year, it won't be far off if these performances continue.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Human Punk said:

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the cards, the main conclusion we can draw is that Liam Watts got a very bad deal.

No. 

[Human Punk]

I don't want to start all that again, but do you really think Watts offence was worse than the 2 last night?

[Chrispmartha]

52 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed.

If we don't improve dramatically I'm reminded of Leeds United under Jesse Marsch, where each rare win and moment of brilliance seemed to give him a lifeline when it should have been ended much earlier. I'm not at the stage of wishing for us to lose to see him gone, but baring in mind last year, it won't be far off if these performances continue.

Last year was terrible for a whole host of reasons and not a lot of them Smith’s fault.

Were two games into the season, with half a new team not sure what ‘these performances’ really means in that context.

The knives will be out for Smith, the knives are out every season it seems for Leeds coaches, last coach i can remember that was almost universally liked amongst Leeds fans was Graham Murray, every one since has had stick from fans.

Smith has come in 18months ago and changed the whole set up from Academy upwards, totally changed the playing squad, cleared out the players fans wanted clearing out.

Problem is fans aren’t very patient but the whole set up need changing and that was always going to take time.

Wether ultimately Smith is the right msn long term we’ll see but I wouldn’t underestimate the work that has gone on behind the scenes to change the set up.

Edited February 23 by Chrispmartha

[Chrispmartha]

55 minutes ago, Human Punk said:

I don't want to start all that again, but do you really think Watts offence was worse than the 2 last night?

Watts was different to the two last night, it was a shoulder charge to the head

[sheddingswasus]

2 hours ago, sentoffagain2 said:

As for Donaldsons card i agree it could have been red but although very careless i don't think a lot of force was applied.Certainly as bad or worse than Watts red last week though.

He should have been sent off. It was a bad reckless tackle. 

[Tommygilf]

25 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Last year was terrible for a whole host of reasons and not a lot of them Smith’s fault.

Were two games into the season, with half a new team not sure what ‘these performances’ really means in that context.

The knives will be out for Smith, the knives are out every season it seems for Leeds coaches, last coach i can remember that was almost universally liked amongst Leeds fans was Graham Murray, every one since has had stick from fans.

Smith has come in 18months ago and changed the whole set up from Academy upwards, totally changed the playing squad, cleared out the players fans wanted clearing out.

Problem is fans aren’t very patient but the whole set up need changing and that was always going to take time.

Wether ultimately Smith is the right msn long term we’ll see but I wouldn’t underestimate the work that has gone on behind the scenes to change the set up.

In those 18 months we've gone from being middle of the table to middle of the table.

All these backroom things are nice, but his job is to coach a squad win Rugby League matches for Leeds Rhinos, and his record on that is patchy at best. You seem desperate to not lay any responsibility for negatives at Smith's door whilst simultaneously praising him for massive yet apparently very very slow burn changes behind the scenes. If he wants to be an administrator/Director of Rugby then great, but let someone else do the tactics and coaching...

To me, the problems of last year have been there in our performances so far this year. Ill discipline not of malice but of slackness and a near total lack of attacking structure being the key attributes. A moment of Ash Handley length of the field brilliance wasn't enough last night like it was the week before.

Teams under top coaches can change in a pre season, we've seen it lots in Super League over the years. That isn't apparent at Leeds in the two competitive matches this season, and I don't think Smith has the credit in the bank to ask for patience. Smith has now had 2 pre-seasons.

I think there is a real possibility that we head into our Easter game with Cas potentially with only 1 win under our belts saying "its the process".

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

In those 18 months we've gone from being middle of the table to middle of the table.

All these backroom things are nice, but his job is to coach a squad win Rugby League matches for Leeds Rhinos, and his record on that is patchy at best. You seem desperate to not lay any responsibility for negatives at Smith's door whilst simultaneously praising him for massive yet apparently very very slow burn changes behind the scenes. If he wants to be an administrator/Director of Rugby then great, but let someone else do the tactics and coaching...

To me, the problems of last year have been there in our performances so far this year. Ill discipline not of malice but of slackness and a near total lack of attacking structure being the key attributes. A moment of Ash Handley length of the field brilliance wasn't enough last night like it was the week before.

Teams under top coaches can change in a pre season, we've seen it lots in Super League over the years. That isn't apparent at Leeds in the two competitive matches this season, and I don't think Smith has the credit in the bank to ask for patience. Smith has now had 2 pre-seasons.

I think there is a real possibility that we head into our Easter game with Cas potentially with only 1 win under our belts saying "its the process".

Were two games in to this season we don’t know where we will be.

All i am saying is don’t underestimate the changes that were required the club was in a right mess.

look ultimately Smith will live or die on the results this year I understand that, Your example of coaches changing a team in one pre season is pretty rare, take Hull KR, they are now benefiting from the work Tony Smith did, and it might be the case that another coach benefits from the work his nephew has done at the Rhinos, we will see.

Seasons aren’t defined by two games (one which we won) Wigan showed that last year, they lost away at KR early in the season and didn’t really get going until mid season, and there were calls for Matty Peet’s head from some quarters who said he wasn’t up to it.

Its pointless crystal balling it, we could be 4from5, 3 from 5, 2 from 5 or 1 from 5, even with any of those it doesn’t automatically mean it’s going to be a duff season.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Were two games in to this season we don’t know where we will be.

All i am saying is don’t underestimate the changes that were required the club was in a right mess.

look ultimately Smith will live or die on the results this year I understand that, Your example of coaches changing a team in one pre season is pretty rare, take Hull KR, they are now benefiting from the work Tony Smith did, and it might be the case that another coach benefits from the work his nephew has done at the Rhinos, we will see.

Seasons aren’t defined by two games (one which we won) Wigan showed that last year, they lost away at KR early in the season and didn’t really get going until mid season, and there were calls for Matty Peet’s head from some quarters who said he wasn’t up to it.

Its pointless crystal balling it, we could be 4from5, 3 from 5, 2 from 5 or 1 from 5, even with any of those it doesn’t automatically mean it’s going to be a duff season.

We're 18 months into Smith's tenure, I don't think the "its two games" thing really carries weight.

The problems I've seen in those two games are exactly the same problems on the pitch as last year, which didn't change last year either.

I'm not calling for him to be sacked now, frankly I think that should have happened last year. But there is now huge pressure on him having played a side who's stated aim is to finish 11th or above and Hull KR before playing 2 of the top 3 from last season and Leigh, and been pretty average at best in both games. 

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

We're 18 months into Smith's tenure, I don't think the "its two games" thing really carries weight.

The problems I've seen in those two games are exactly the same problems on the pitch as last year, which didn't change last year either.

I'm not calling for him to be sacked now, frankly I think that should have happened last year. But there is now huge pressure on him having played a side who's stated aim is to finish 11th or above and Hull KR before playing 2 of the top 3 from last season and Leigh, and been pretty average at best in both games. 

We’re just going to wait and see.

Sacking Smith last year would have been stupid, there were so many things happening behind the scenes, sacking Smith wouldn’t have helped in fact it would have made it worse. The club as I say was in a right mess when he came in, I just don’t think it can be understated.

Personally i can see a change in style from last year but we’re probably not going to agree on that 

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

We’re just going to wait and see.

Sacking Smith last year would have been stupid, there were so many things happening behind the scenes, sacking Smith wouldn’t have helped in fact it would have made it worse. The club as I say was in a right mess when he came in, I just don’t think it can be understated.

Personally i can see a change in style from last year but we’re probably not going to agree on that 

I think its far too much in everyone's interest right now to say how much of a mess the club "was" in. Its far too convenient a narrative. If he couldn't manage that team to at least a play off finish then he's not good enough regardless. There is nothing that affected the club that much to make that acceptable. 

I can't see a change in style personally mate. We're pretty flat and unstructured as ever in attack, with 1 move plays off the standoff/halfback being the extent of our plays. I think our discipline problem for silly things is still there too.

Changes are good. We have some linespeed in defence now and Cam Smith is a consistent and named captain. Both of these were issues of Smith's own invention however, so I'm not sure how much credit he deserves for solving them too. 

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I think its far too much in everyone's interest right now to say how much of a mess the club "was" in. Its far too convenient a narrative. If he couldn't manage that team to at least a play off finish then he's not good enough regardless. There is nothing that affected the club that much to make that acceptable. 

I can't see a change in style personally mate. We're pretty flat and unstructured as ever in attack, with 1 move plays off the standoff/halfback being the extent of our plays. I think our discipline problem for silly things is still there too.

Changes are good. We have some linespeed in defence now and Cam Smith is a consistent and named captain. Both of these were issues of Smith's own invention however, so I'm not sure how much credit he deserves for solving them too. 

If you speak to people within the club (which ive been fortunate to do) im not overstating the case about the club being a mess. And there was a lot that did affect what happened last year.

I can easily flip it round and say ignoring that is convenient for people that want rid of Smith.

 

we’ll just have to disagree on the structure, and a team with a whole new spine is going to take time to bed in.

As I say it’s an interesting season ahead and if we end up bottom half again I think Smith will go. If he does the actual squad is in a pretty good shape for whoever takes over, were a prop or two light and in need of another top line winger, both can be addressed going forward.