Rugby What Ifs?

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

I am currently binge-listening to Rugby Reloaded by Professor Collins and a number of episodes discuss the origins of the variants of football and its spread around the world.

It brings me ask a few questions:

At one point the rugby variant was more popular than association football however the lack of national competition arguably allowed association football to takeover in that regard

Do you think that had a nationwide league or an FA Cup equivalent been established that rugby would have split or maintained its status as the most popular variant of football in the country?

Or that rugby would be a much bigger sport internationally than it currently is?

American football, Canadian football, Aussie Rules (fumbleball) to a certain degree have a common ancestor in rugby but made some alterations especially with regards to the scrum and so did rugby league.

Do you think had the schism not taken place that rugby would have had the changes that rugby league eventually made?

Association football also had a professionalism debate. 

Had the FA stuck with amateurism do you think the game would have diverged like rugby league did and would association football be as popular as it is internationally today?

 

 

 

[The 4 of Us]

Welsh clubs staying in the Northern Union would have seen a very different outcome. 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

10 minutes ago, The 4 of Us said:

Welsh clubs staying in the Northern Union would have seen a very different outcome. 

That too. Imagine how much more popular rugby league would have been if that was the case?

 

[Sports Prophet]

It’s all conjecture. It is fun to fanaticise what might have been, because reality happens because reality does.

I don’t necessarily think Rugby would be much different internationally than what it is today. Soccer is a basic sport which can be played socially by any class, in mixed genders, without a referee, with minimal equipment. 

Rugby took until the 1960s to develop its own simple version of the game in touch rugby, but by then soccer was well and truly established as a global game. 

I wonder if touch rugby had been widely available in the 19th and 20th centuries, perhaps we would see Rugby with a wider international footprint. 

Personally, I still see touch rugby as RL’s best vehicle to grow the footprint of the game into new international markets.

[sam4731]

8 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

It’s all conjecture. It is fun to fanaticise what might have been, because reality happens because reality does.

I don’t necessarily think Rugby would be much different internationally than what it is today. Soccer is a basic sport which can be played socially by any class, in mixed genders, without a referee, with minimal equipment. 

Rugby took until the 1960s to develop its own simple version of the game in touch rugby, but by then soccer was well and truly established as a global game. 

I wonder if touch rugby had been widely available in the 19th and 20th centuries, perhaps we would see Rugby with a wider international footprint. 

Personally, I still see touch rugby as RL’s best vehicle to grow the footprint of the game into new international markets.

This. The focus for football throughout its existence is that anyone can pick up a ball throw some jumpers down and play.

Football was actually very reluctant to bring in technology to the game for this very reason as they have always wanted the game to be exactly the same from the Premier league down the the mid West counties division 6 East.

One of the reasons that the sport is so popular is that you could be playingin North Korea or South Korea, Israel or Palestine, Russia or Ukraine and you'd always be playing with the same rules.

We can't even coordinate rules between just 2 professional competitions. 

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

I read somewhere, not sure where, that a French player/coach/official, not sure if league or the other code, was asked if the split hadn't happened what would Rugby look like today? And he answered Rugby League. His premise was that the game would have naturally evolved as there wouldn't be as much resistance to change.

[EggFace]

14 hours ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

I am currently binge-listening to Rugby Reloaded by Professor Collins and a number of episodes discuss the origins of the variants of football and its spread around the world.

It brings me ask a few questions:

At one point the rugby variant was more popular than association football however the lack of national competition arguably allowed association football to takeover in that regard

Do you think that had a nationwide league or an FA Cup equivalent been established that rugby would have split or maintained its status as the most popular variant of football in the country?

Or that rugby would be a much bigger sport internationally than it currently is?

American football, Canadian football, Aussie Rules (fumbleball) to a certain degree have a common ancestor in rugby but made some alterations especially with regards to the scrum and so did rugby league.

Do you think had the schism not taken place that rugby would have had the changes that rugby league eventually made?

Association football also had a professionalism debate. 

Had the FA stuck with amateurism do you think the game would have diverged like rugby league did and would association football be as popular as it is internationally today?

 

 

 

I love Tony Collins books and podcasts as well as Australia's Sean Fagan and the what if's do my head in and oftern wonder if the split had happend 10 years earlier then I wonder GAA founder Micheal Cusack who had played or was of a fan of Rugby would of went with Northern Union rules.

Said it before put we ended up with too many styles of Football and my fear for some will or have been over taken by Soccer and thats why I always harp on about a united code of Rugby alongside the push for Touch and Tag,

[Damien]

1 hour ago, The Art of Hand and Foot said:

I read somewhere, not sure where, that a French player/coach/official, not sure if league or the other code, was asked if the split hadn't happened what would Rugby look like today? And he answered Rugby League. His premise was that the game would have naturally evolved as there wouldn't be as much resistance to change.

I always day this. It would have evolved into what Rugby League now is for exactly the same reasons.

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

A further what if

Had Wales adopted rugby league in the early days do you think the remaining Home Nations would have done so too? 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

A further what if

Had Wales adopted rugby league in the early days do you think the remaining Home Nations would have done so too? 

No because Rugby Union was, and to some extent still is, very elitist in those nations.

Edited May 29 by Damien

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

No because it was, and to some extent still is, very elitist in those nations.

Hmmm. Mind you at that time working class Scotland's sport was mainly association football

[OriginalMrC]

25 minutes ago, SouthBedfordshireFan said:

A further what if

Had Wales adopted rugby league in the early days do you think the remaining Home Nations would have done so too? 

Wales is a bit of anomaly in that the working classes played rugby. In England, Scotland and Ireland it remained a sport played mainly by middle classes. RL could and should have taken off as the dominant code in Wales. Would never have happened in the other nations.

[The Blues Ox]

Another what if......

Widnes and fax fans know.

Have to love the commentators opptimism about the speed of Kevin Penny.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

On 30/04/2024 at 23:32, Sports Prophet said:

It’s all conjecture. It is fun to fanaticise what might have been, because reality happens because reality does.

I don’t necessarily think Rugby would be much different internationally than what it is today. Soccer is a basic sport which can be played socially by any class, in mixed genders, without a referee, with minimal equipment. 

Rugby took until the 1960s to develop its own simple version of the game in touch rugby, but by then soccer was well and truly established as a global game. 

I wonder if touch rugby had been widely available in the 19th and 20th centuries, perhaps we would see Rugby with a wider international footprint. 

Personally, I still see touch rugby as RL’s best vehicle to grow the footprint of the game into new international markets.

I agree that speculation is fun but pointless ultimately 

Touch rugby really is a massive fave of Aussies on here and elsewhere .....hasn't taken off down our way yet....not gon for it myself yet! 

Can't see a touch rugby club having the same thing a contact club would have liked the clubhouse and social presence in a town ...would love to be wrong 

[JonM]

35 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Another what if......

Widnes and fax fans know.

Have to love the commentators opptimism about the speed of Kevin Penny.

I still fondly reminisce about that moment from time to time  

[Hopping Mad]

Seem to recall Tony Collins detailing how the RFU turned a blind eye to player payments etc at Leicester, to ensure Tigers didn't switch to rugby league.

Edited May 29 by Hopping Mad

[Damien]

54 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

I agree that speculation is fun but pointless ultimately 

Touch rugby really is a massive fave of Aussies on here and elsewhere .....hasn't taken off down our way yet....not gon for it myself yet! 

Can't see a touch rugby club having the same thing a contact club would have liked the clubhouse and social presence in a town ...would love to be wrong 

I saw this a couple of days ago and it made my blood boil. Touch Rugby is actually pretty big in Ireland amongst RU clubs keeping fit and RL has basically let RU use what is a form of RL to boost their playing numbers:

The IRFU recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the Ireland Touch Association (ITA).

The IRFU and the Ireland Touch Association (ITA) will work closely together, to develop the game of Touch rugby in Ireland. In 2023, the two bodies collaborated to develop a suite of educational resources on Touch rugby, which can be found here.

The IRFU is committed to offering choice to participants and this partnership will further strengthen our ability to deliver a quality non-contact form of the game. In the recent ‘State of the Game’ survey, 30% of people surveyed said they wanted to take part in non-contact forms of the game.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2024/05/27/irfu-signs-memorandum-of-understanding-with-the-ireland-touch-association/

 

 

Even more galling is if you go to the Ireland Touch Rugby website the video on the home page showing the basic rules of touch is the NRL video!:

https://irelandtouch.ie

Edited May 29 by Damien

[burnleywelsh]

2 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Wales is a bit of anomaly in that the working classes played rugby. In England, Scotland and Ireland it remained a sport played mainly by middle classes. RL could and should have taken off as the dominant code in Wales. Would never have happened in the other nations.

Not so sure. If the Welsh clubs had switched to RL, then the South West English clubs would probably have followed. The likes of Gloucester, Bristol, Bath etc would’ve switched to maintain their popular cross border fixtures. Then followed by the Midlands clubs, leaving the RFU with a rump of elitist South East clubs. The strongest Welsh and English clubs would be playing NU/RL. If the rest of the Unions wanted meaningful International competition they would have had to consider following suit.

Edited May 29 by burnleywelsh

[burningmuscles]

48 minutes ago, burnleywelsh said:

Not so sure. If the Welsh clubs had switched to RL, then the South West English clubs would probably have followed. The likes of Gloucester, Bristol, Bath etc would’ve switched to maintain their popular cross border fixtures. Then followed by the Midlands clubs, leaving the RFU with a rump of elitist South East clubs. The strongest Welsh and English clubs would be playing NU/RL. If the rest of the Unions wanted meaningful International competition they would have had to consider following suit.

Does anyone provide one-way trips to parallel universes? 

[Damien]

52 minutes ago, burnleywelsh said:

Not so sure. If the Welsh clubs had switched to RL, then the South West English clubs would probably have followed. The likes of Gloucester, Bristol, Bath etc would’ve switched to maintain their popular cross border fixtures. Then followed by the Midlands clubs, leaving the RFU with a rump of elitist South East clubs. The strongest Welsh and English clubs would be playing NU/RL. If the rest of the Unions wanted meaningful International competition they would have had to consider following suit.

What makes you think clubs like Bath and Bristol weren't elitist?

[burnleywelsh]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

What makes you think clubs like Bath and Bristol weren't elitist?

They probably were, but the Anglo-Welsh fixtures were very important to them. More so than playing the likes of Harlequins, Rosslyn Park et al.

[EggFace]

26 minutes ago, burnleywelsh said:

They probably were, but the Anglo-Welsh fixtures were very important to them. More so than playing the likes of Harlequins, Rosslyn Park et al.

And look how Anglo-Welsh fixtures have turned out in the pro era.

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

No because it was, and to some extent still is, very elitist in those nations.

Hmmm. Mind you at that time working class Scotland's sport was mainly association football. 

[The Blues Ox]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

I still fondly reminisce about that moment from time to time  

Where as sometimes I wake up in a cold sweat dreaming about it. 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

I made a rugby league what if game if any of you are interested in playing.