Map Addicts: a place for the obsessive amateur cartographers amongst us.

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Went there a few years back, superb place. Being a nerd I often wonder what would have happened if the Battle of Hastings had been won by the English, global history would be so different. 

It's an interesting one and unknowable. I guess 'England' would have remained vulnerable for longer and no one can easily say who would have then taken which parts when.

As an aside, the 1066 battlefield is obviously nearby (in Battle not Hastings) and I went there with a Canadian friend a few years back who had absolutely no idea what the date 1066 meant or why the Battle of Hastings was significant. No judgement there - just interesting which bits of history stick around the world and which don't.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

It's an interesting one and unknowable. I guess 'England' would have remained vulnerable for longer and no one can easily say who would have then taken which parts when.

As an aside, the 1066 battlefield is obviously nearby (in Battle not Hastings) and I went there with a Canadian friend a few years back who had absolutely no idea what the date 1066 meant or why the Battle of Hastings was significant. No judgement there - just interesting which bits of history stick around the world and which don't.

Completely different language too. I’d like to think Harold would have held onto the crown though, having seen the Vikings off at Stamford Bridge. And while I don’t doubt Europeans would have colonised the Americas and Australasia anyway, there’d be no United States or Canada as we know them, or Australia or NZ. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by Eddie

[The Hallucinating Goose]

7 hours ago, gingerjon said:

None that I can think of - sorry!

No probs mate! Did you go to the war graves around the area when you were there?

[The Hallucinating Goose]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

Completely different language too. I’d like to think Harold would have held onto the crown though, having seen the Vikings off at Stamford Bridge. And while I don’t doubt Europeans would have colonised the Americas and Australasia anyway, there’d be no United States or Canada as we know them, or Australia or NZ. 

Are you saying if the Saxons had beaten the Normans at Hastings, we'd have a chance of winning the RLWC??  

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

No probs mate! Did you go to the war graves around the area when you were there?

Always do. There was a large-ish Second World War one near the route we took into the town so that was the one we pulled into.

On a semi related note, my semi-resolution for 2025 is to visit each of the War Graves in Hastings. I've been here for over ten years and never done it.

[JohnM]

Just in case this has not been posted yet: Map Men on YouTube.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfxy4_sBQdxy3A2lvl-y3qWTeJEbC_QCp&si=RiaWqqtos8r3fLGU

[Futtocks]

26 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Just in case this has not been posted yet: Map Men on YouTube.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfxy4_sBQdxy3A2lvl-y3qWTeJEbC_QCp&si=RiaWqqtos8r3fLGU

Thanks! They were on Radio 4 earlier today, but I forgot to make a note to look for their YT channel.

[Tommygilf]

On 18/12/2024 at 08:35, The Hallucinating Goose said:

You got any pics of Bayeux that you could post here? I've never been but it's certainly on my bucket list.

It thought it was taller than I expected!

[Tommygilf]

23 hours ago, Eddie said:

Went there a few years back, superb place. Being a nerd I often wonder what would have happened if the Battle of Hastings had been won by the English, global history would be so different. 

The idea of change vs continuity is perhaps the most popular idea for discussion amongst historians (regardless of era of study) if the past century. 

The latter was perhaps once a more hip, counter cultural idea that rejects the "great men" and "great moments" ideas in history. In the broadest terms it aligned with a certain whiggish political view of progress being inevitable, but it's not a perfect match up. There is an element of this that also is about a more grounded social understanding of history and how granular we can get with more recent events with more evidence available. That is to say how much actually changed for normal people as a result, and of what did change, so what?

For example, take the USSR in comparison to the Russian Empire before it. Lots of historians would recognise the term "The Red Tsars" to describe the likes of Lenin and Stalin, underlining the elements of continuity within the two regimes in how power structures operated and ended up concentrated in a single quasi religious figure of authority, fear and admiration. Dare I say perhaps this could extend to the Russian Federation since the 90s?

In terms of Hastings, the argument could be made that some things would be different, but also that inevitably England (or some version of it) would change as it did anyway. The Norman's didn't start or stop adventuring and conquering dependent of William the Conqueror. Perhaps another would have come along, or a weak English King might have invited Norman strongmen over in return for land. A Norman aristocracy also emerged in Scotland and Ireland for example, indeed in Monsieur Robert de Brus and his brother's case, claimed kingship over both respectively at one point. So there's possibly an issue of seeing the medieval world as we see ours now, with nation states and clearly defined identities where in reality these were much more fluid. This embryonic era of the nation is very interesting time, often dismissed as a "Dark Age" incorrectly only because it is so complex to the modern understanding rather than a lack of sophistication.

Does that mean we would say pig meat instead of pork now? Who knows. The Norman Yoke had a habit of spreading, as did the French influence in medieval Europe more generally.

In terms of change vs continuity, I tend to think as always that the answer is somewhere down the middle. Economic and other big picture factors are of course very important, but subordinating the agency of individuals would be a fundamentally flawed way of understanding history too. Likewise, denying there has been change for the sake of it seems pretty stupid to me. 

There's an upcoming TV series about the events leading up to the Norman conquest coming actually. William is played by the chap who played Jaime Lannister in Game of Thrones.

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's an upcoming TV series about the events leading up to the Norman conquest coming actually. William is played by the chap who played Jaime Lannister in Game of Thrones.

There were casting calls all round here for it!

[Eddie]

What map apps do you cartography enthusiasts use?  My favourite is UK Maps, where for £3.99 you can get the 1:50,000 OS Maps for quite a large area (three or four counties), as well as the usual larger scale road maps etc. If also gives you your location which is very handy on rural walks. 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

28 minutes ago, Eddie said:

What map apps do you cartography enthusiasts use?  My favourite is UK Maps, where for £3.99 you can get the 1:50,000 OS Maps for quite a large area (three or four counties), as well as the usual larger scale road maps etc. If also gives you your location which is very handy on rural walks. 

The only map apps I have are Google Maps and Flightradar24, essentially because I love a paper map and when I go off on my long distance walks I take one of those with me. The Ordinance Survey is one of the great institutions of this country and I can spend hours at a time just studying their maps; no other maps in the world are as accurate or detailed as an OS map.

[Eddie]

8 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

The only map apps I have are Google Maps and Flightradar24, essentially because I love a paper map and when I go off on my long distance walks I take one of those with me. The Ordinance Survey is one of the great institutions of this country and I can spend hours at a time just studying their maps; no other maps in the world are as accurate or detailed as an OS map.

Agree 100%, I wanted to become a cartographer and work for the OS but I couldn’t afford to go to Glasgow to do the masters degree, that was the only place that did it at the time. I also take a paper map usually but have found the app is great for finding out where you are when lost, and also if I’m going somewhere just for one weekend and not likely to go back I don’t have to spend £8.99 as a one off.    I’ve often wondered why other countries don’t have maps like OS. 

[Ackroman]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Agree 100%, I wanted to become a cartographer and work for the OS but I couldn’t afford to go to Glasgow to do the masters degree, that was the only place that did it at the time. I also take a paper map usually but have found the app is great for finding out where you are when lost, and also if I’m going somewhere just for one weekend and not likely to go back I don’t have to spend £8.99 as a one off.    I’ve often wondered why other countries don’t have maps like OS. 

Your last sentence is interesting in that my observation of other countries is that they consider a lot of land common ground and don't necessarily feel the need to map trails. Whereas we are so obsessed with "sticking to the path" in order to avoid pi##ing someone off, we feel more comfortable in the countryside with a definitive source.

 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

32 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Agree 100%, I wanted to become a cartographer and work for the OS but I couldn’t afford to go to Glasgow to do the masters degree, that was the only place that did it at the time. I also take a paper map usually but have found the app is great for finding out where you are when lost, and also if I’m going somewhere just for one weekend and not likely to go back I don’t have to spend £8.99 as a one off.    I’ve often wondered why other countries don’t have maps like OS. 

I spend £8.99 as a treat, as I say, I can spend hours just studying a map, I've got loads in my collection that I've never actually used in practice but I've enjoyed studying them and deciding where I might go! 

[Eddie]

58 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

Your last sentence is interesting in that my observation of other countries is that they consider a lot of land common ground and don't necessarily feel the need to map trails. Whereas we are so obsessed with "sticking to the path" in order to avoid pi##ing someone off, we feel more comfortable in the countryside with a definitive source.

 

True, but OS maps aren’t produced for ramblers, they’re just lucky that the country is mapped in such astonishing detail and it’s made available to them. Go to France or Germany and the maps are so basic. I’ve often thought the OS should produce 1:50,000 maps of those countries I’m sure they’d sell well. 

[LEEDSLADGONE SOUTH]

Many years ago whilst working in Huddersfield, a young lady asked me on a date. As I want that familiar with the area and it was before smartphones etc, I asked her for a for a rough map to the meeting place. 
Her response “ I’ll draw you a map to my vagina”. I didn’t think I required the latter but the thought was appreciated. 

[Ackroman]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

True, but OS maps aren’t produced for ramblers, they’re just lucky that the country is mapped in such astonishing detail and it’s made available to them. Go to France or Germany and the maps are so basic. I’ve often thought the OS should produce 1:50,000 maps of those countries I’m sure they’d sell well. 

I have some insight into this due to my interest in local (as in where I grew up) history. In the 1500's a Vicar of Thornhill Parish Church, Dewsbury called John Rudd (1498 - 1579), was asked by Elizabeth I to map England in 1561. He was a man who reached a fairly lofty position after the reformation (having been a staunch catholic), being buried in Durham cathedral. The key cartographer was his apprentice, a man called Christopher Saxton, born 1540 in Dewsbury (d 1610 London), who after the bequest of Rudd to map the land having not quite been achieved (there's no evidence), Saxton then mapped all counties of England, which was the first time this had been done.

After Saxton came a number of other noted cartographers who added and embellished the details but the 35 maps created by Saxton were reproduced by engravers (a new technology at the time) and also reproduced as pocket maps in the English civil war.

It would be difficult to ignore the political benefits of the mapping of england considering the dissolution and enclosures that came about around that time but to Saxton's credit he focussed on settlements, hills and mountains. However others followed, using Saxtons maps and adding more details that would lead to the maps we have today. Most notable is John Speed (1551 - 1629) who is probably the most famous cartographer in the history of English mapping.

 

[Futtocks]

10 hours ago, Eddie said:

Agree 100%, I wanted to become a cartographer and work for the OS but I couldn’t afford to go to Glasgow to do the masters degree, that was the only place that did it at the time. I also take a paper map usually but have found the app is great for finding out where you are when lost, and also if I’m going somewhere just for one weekend and not likely to go back I don’t have to spend £8.99 as a one off.    I’ve often wondered why other countries don’t have maps like OS. 

In Graham Robb's book about France, he mentions: A century and a half after [William] Windham [Sr.]‘s expedition to the glaciers of Savoy, when cyclists were pedalling over the Pyrenees and the first cars were chugging along the dusty roads of France, it would be hard to believe that there was anything left to explore - though the fact that the grandest canyon in Europe somehow escaped attention until 1896, when it was discovered less than twenty miles from a departmental capital, suggests that the country was not quite as well known as it seemed to be.

[Futtocks]

The global wind map.

World View: https://earth.nullschool.net 

Zoomed in on the UK: https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-1.51,54.11,2032

[The Hallucinating Goose]

15 hours ago, Futtocks said:

The global wind map.

World View: https://earth.nullschool.net 

Zoomed in on the UK: https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-1.51,54.11,2032

Wow! That is very cool, mate!

[The Hallucinating Goose]

I bought an OS map of Hull and the surrounding area from 1911 in the charity shop today. Fascinating map!

At that time there was only one proper stadium in the city and it was The Boulevard! There was The Circle cricket ground, where the MKM is now but that was basically just a field with a pavilion.

[Futtocks]

Has this been posted before?

London Ghost Signs Map

[The Hallucinating Goose]

1 hour ago, Futtocks said:

Has this been posted before?

London Ghost Signs Map

Don't think so!

[JohnM]

Most countries have  National Mapping Agencies. Frances NMA is IGN and they publish the equivalent of our OS maps. Ditto Switzerland, Spain and more. 

OS operates world-wide, helping other counties develop their own services. Printed maps are just a tiny part of OS operation.  A worthy subject of study. 

Commercial: get yourselves an OS subscription.

https://shop.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/os-maps-14-day-free-trial/

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That’s digital access to 607 OS Explorer and OS Landranger maps covering the whole of Great Britain, plus topographic mapping for Northern Ireland, USA, Australia and New Zealand too. etc etc.

Edited March 24 by JohnM