IRL chair Troy Grant on shrinking World Cup, northern hemisphere issues and growing international game

[Rugby League World]

International rugby league seems to be in a constant state of flux. Is it on the rise or in decline? IRL chair Troy Grant gives...

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[Barley Mow]

Grant - "we recognise the importance of nations such as Jamaica, Greece and Italy is enormous, which is why we have designed regional formats leading to the World Series for emerging nations, which will act as World Cup qualifiers in 2025. It’s a genuine pathway for those nations and a realistic way to grow the game internationally.”

Surely we can expect him to know that Greece and Italy (like Scotland and Wales) were excluded from qualification for not being full members?

[Barley Mow]

Also, the term "emerging nations" in the quote above - does he really see France as an emerging nation?

Weaker than they have been in the past, certainly. But they've been playing international RL since 1934!

And as for it being a "way to grow the game internationally", designing a system that limits European involvement to England plus (potentially) one other qualifier doesn't seem to ensure growth on a continent (he says elsewhere) they're concerned about.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Barley Mow

[Damien]

I do think splitting up the World Cups makes sense if it makes it more manageable for hosts and it should also see more focus on each. I think it was always ambitious, and not necessarily the best approach anyway, to expect to do what RLWC2021 did for every World Cup and host all 4 in the same country at the same time.

“If we kept a 16-team format we’d end up with no World Cups at all." - I just don't think that's true at all. We had 16, and we had 14 for 2 profitable World Cups before that. I don't believe that 16 can't be profitable, I think RLWC2021 would have been hugely profitable if it wasn't for Covid, or that 2 extra teams is such a burden. RLWC2021 being delayed and impacted by Covid just seems to be ignored by Grant when these discussions crop up as it doesn't fit the narrative he wants to push. I'm not sure the time to organise argument really stacks up either, other World Cups have been organised in as much time.

I'm actually coming round more to the competitiveness argument a little more though and have frankly lost patience with the approaches of the likes of Ireland and Scotland and them being in a World Cup just to pad it out. I can therefore accept the reduction if it's followed with a proper emerging nations tournament for the likes of Greece, Jamaica etc and nations that are working on growing the game domestically. Cost wise this ain't going to be any cheaper than a 16 team World Cup though, unless perhaps if its hosted in Europe instead (with almost all Australasian teams being in the main World Cup anyway)

Edited December 2, 2024 by Damien

[Coggo]

We have to accept the Old Dart isn't calling the shots anymore - but this is a positive. The much-maligned NRL is throwing its weight - and marketing dollars - behind the international game. And it will boom.

[Damien]

I do think this shows a worrying lack of knowledge when it comes to the game in Europe though:

Surely it’s of some concern, then, that these nations appear to be going backwards? “Yes, it’s a concern. We need Scotland and Ireland to be strong for the sake of that region,” Grant concurs. “The intention is to help those nations climb back. We would encourage the RFL in the northern hemisphere to mimic what the ARLC have done in the Pacific region: Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and Papua New Guinea receive support and become more competitive every year.”

What exactly should the RFL be copying from the ARLC when it comes to Ireland and Scotland being strong? What should this blueprint be? How does he propose the RFL get government funding to put domestic programs in place like the NRL does from the Australia government?

The game in those countries is literally a handful of RU clubs playing a few games in their off season and heritage teams at u16s and u19s level playing internationals after a couple of trial days. There isn't even this wealth of top draw heritage players to call on like the PI Nations or support for such teams in these countries. As far as I can see the situations couldn't be more different. Also what is also the IRL's/RLEF's role here? Surely they should be working with these nations too to build them up and not wash their hands of them? The approach certainly needs to be much more substantial than just sticking on a European Championship that is built on sand and thinking it's going to be a success or change anything.

That's not to say I don't think the RFL have a role. I know others on here don't agree but I have always thought that the RFL does have a duty as the leading, and only professional, governing body in the Northern hemisphere. Just as I think the ARLC/NRL has a duty in the Southern hemisphere. That to me needs to be more at a grassroots level to try and build up bona fide RL community clubs, with well funded semi professional teams in the English system. More like the Silktails and Hunters in the 2nd tier competitions in Australia and like the Celtic Crusaders of old. That takes money though to do properly and as we all know the RFL ain't got it and the sport isn't going to get the grants the NRL get from the Australia government for these things. France is the one that should be much more targeted as a strategy as a quick win at an elite level.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Damien

[gingerjon]

He's a snake oil salesman whose cart has run out of snake oil. There's nothing there that's not been said before and no ideas and plans that make any sense when put against what they're meant to achieve.

He thrives on the fact that so many folk in RL have the memories of goldfish and a view of other sports that hasn't moved since 1985.

[Dave T]

Hmm. So the the IRL Chairman's grand plan is to pat the ARLC on the back and tell the RFL to copy them?

When we talk about the development in the likes of Tonga and Samoa - what exactly is it that the ARLC has done - that's a genuine question - just four or five bullets on what they have done that has got these two nations to the position they are in and what the RFL could replicate would be interesting to see?

Edited December 2, 2024 by Dave T
typos

[JM2010]

One of the main growth areas for international RL could be the WC qualifiers. If this can be built upon and expanded to include more nations in the regional qualifiers and then the following year expanding the World Series that then gives at least two years of competitive RL for the lower tier nations 

[corkonian77]

9 hours ago, Damien said:

I do think this shows a worrying lack of knowledge when it comes to the game in Europe though:

Surely it’s of some concern, then, that these nations appear to be going backwards? “Yes, it’s a concern. We need Scotland and Ireland to be strong for the sake of that region,” Grant concurs. “The intention is to help those nations climb back. We would encourage the RFL in the northern hemisphere to mimic what the ARLC have done in the Pacific region: Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and Papua New Guinea receive support and become more competitive every year.”

What exactly should the RFL be copying from the ARLC when it comes to Ireland and Scotland being strong? What should this blueprint be? How does he propose the RFL get government funding to put domestic programs in place like the NRL does from the Australia government?

The game in those countries is literally a handful of RU clubs playing a few games in their off season and heritage teams at u16s and u19s level playing internationals after a couple of trial days. There isn't even this wealth of top draw heritage players to call on like the PI Nations or support for such teams in these countries. As far as I can see the situations couldn't be more different. Also what is also the IRL's/RLEF's role here? Surely they should be working with these nations too to build them up and not wash their hands of them? The approach certainly needs to be much more substantial than just sticking on a European Championship that is built on sand and thinking it's going to be a success or change anything.

That's not to say I don't think the RFL have a role. I know others on here don't agree but I have always thought that the RFL does have a duty as the leading, and only professional, governing body in the Northern hemisphere. Just as I think the ARLC/NRL has a duty in the Southern hemisphere. That to me needs to be more at a grassroots level to try and build up bona fide RL community clubs, with well funded semi professional teams in the English system. More like the Silktails and Hunters in the 2nd tier competitions in Australia and like the Celtic Crusaders of old. That takes money though to do properly and as we all know the RFL ain't got it and the sport isn't going to get the grants the NRL get from the Australia government for these things. France is the one that should be much more targeted as a strategy as a quick win at an elite level.

It's my understanding  that Rugby  League  Ireland  havent  received any assistance  from RFL in over a decade. Is that correct? 

To expect it in the future is unrealistic.

[langpark]

3 minutes ago, corkonian77 said:

It's my understanding  that Rugby  League  Ireland  havent  received any assistance  from RFL in over a decade. Is that correct? 

To expect it in the future is unrealistic.

That is correct, however, during that decade and right up until this year they were receiving the annual IRL full membership grant of AUD $25,000.

Ι believe in the early 2000s the RFL employed a full-time development officer over there and that was cut circa 2010-2012.

[corkonian77]

9 minutes ago, langpark said:

That is correct, however, during that decade and right up until this year they were receiving the annual IRL full membership grant of AUD $25,000.

Ι believe in the early 2000s the RFL employed a full-time development officer over there and that was cut circa 2010-2012.

€15.000 ?   Wouldn't  get you far in Ireland.  About €30 per player.  

Edited December 2, 2024 by corkonian77

[langpark]

1 minute ago, corkonian77 said:

€15.000 ?   Wouldn't  get you far in Ireland.  About €30 per player.  

I wasn't saying anything about the amount.  But it is €15k more than other nations (with far more activity:  Greece, Norway, Netherlands) have been getting.

Also, are you saying there are 500 players in Ireland?  There were seven teams this year, are you telling me they each had 70+ player rosters?  For their (on average) 5-week season?

https://www.rli.ie/tables/

[corkonian77]

1 minute ago, langpark said:

I wasn't saying anything about the amount.  But it is €15k more than other nations (with far more activity:  Greece, Norway, Netherlands) have been getting.

Also, are you saying there are 500 players in Ireland?  There were seven teams this year, are you telling me they each had 70+ player rosters?  For their (on average) 5-week season?

https://www.rli.ie/tables/

That's the official figure as stated on this site. Probably  in reality in closer  to 200. 

The mentioned  countries  need that amount at a minimum. 

[Sports Prophet]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

Hmm. So the the IRL Chairman's grand plan is to pat the ARLC on the back and tell the RFL to copy them?

When we talk about the development in the likes of Tonga and Samoa - what exactly is it that the ARLC has done - that's a genuine question - just four or five bullets on what they have done that has got these two nations to the position they are in and what the RFL could replicate would be interesting to see?

I could give you ten bullet points Dave, but the reality is, most of them will not be strategies specifically setup for Tonga or Samoa and the ones which are specific strategies for those two countries are purely reactionary.

There is no money in the NH game and I don’t see there being much disposable income for meaningful international growth in the NH for a long, long time. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

I could give you ten bullet points Dave, but the reality is, most of them will not be strategies specifically setup for Tonga or Samoa and the ones which are specific strategies for those two countries are purely reactionary.

There is no money in the NH game and I don’t see there being much disposable income for meaningful international growth in the NH for a long, long time. 

I'm not sure I follow SP - are you saying that there hasn't been specific strategies in place to develop Tonga and Samoa that the RFL can lift and shift for Scotland and Ireland?

If so, we agree. But it was a genuine question, in case there is stuff that I'm not aware of, living on the other side of the world!

[Dave T]

Just one point I would like to make, from scanning historic results, Samoa have played more games in the UK than any other country. Tonga not quite at the same level, but the UK is up there. 

Both have played in the UK more than they have Oz.

[The Future is League]

15 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Grant - "we recognise the importance of nations such as Jamaica, Greece and Italy is enormous, which is why we have designed regional formats leading to the World Series for emerging nations, which will act as World Cup qualifiers in 2025. It’s a genuine pathway for those nations and a realistic way to grow the game internationally.”

Surely we can expect him to know that Greece and Italy (like Scotland and Wales) were excluded from qualification for not being full members?

Probably not it seems.

[gingerjon]

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure I follow SP - are you saying that there hasn't been specific strategies in place to develop Tonga and Samoa that the RFL can lift and shift for Scotland and Ireland?

It's obvious, isn't it? Nothing that applies to Tonga and Samoa applies to Scotland and Ireland, or, indeed, anywhere else. And that's if we take it at face value that the ARLC/NRL has done anything proactively and strategically in the first place, as opposed to reacting, belatedly, to some very good fortune around demographics in New South Wales, Queensland and New Zealand.

A real organisation would be responding to the numbers put up in the European Rugby League report and talking about what they mean, and what might be possible to take each country in that list to the next stage.

But it's not a real organisation and nobody actually cares.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

It's obvious, isn't it? Nothing that applies to Tonga and Samoa applies to Scotland and Ireland, or, indeed, anywhere else. And that's if we take it at face value that the ARLC/NRL has done anything proactively and strategically in the first place, as opposed to reacting, belatedly, to some very good fortune around demographics in New South Wales, Queensland and New Zealand.

A real organisation would be responding to the numbers put up in the European Rugby League report and talking about what they mean, and what might be possible to take each country in that list to the next stage.

But it's not a real organisation and nobody actually cares.

Indeed. I find it frustrating when fans on forums come up with claims that the "RFL should just do what the NRL have done with Tonga" - but to see the leader of the IRL saying that, well it's just an absolute joke.

I'm not a massive fan of the top-down approach of cheaply giving away world cup slots and not working on the grassroots, but that has worked for some nations. But let's be brutally honest, the only real reason this is working for them is because of heritage players in the main, and a fanbase - which is due to the unique make-up of Australia and New Zealand and isn't possible to just copy and paste elsewhere. 

It's worrying times really, the IRL is more toothless than it has ever been, and the ARLC's approach is being held up as gold standard that others should follow.

[Sports Prophet]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure I follow SP - are you saying that there hasn't been specific strategies in place to develop Tonga and Samoa that the RFL can lift and shift for Scotland and Ireland?

If so, we agree. But it was a genuine question, in case there is stuff that I'm not aware of, living on the other side of the world!

no mate, you have me right. Tonga and Samoa for the best part have been fortuitous developments and not the result of targeted initiatives.

In saying that, the NRL/ARLC seem to be paying attention finally.

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

no mate, you have me right. Tonga and Samoa for the best part have been fortuitous developments and not the result of targeted initiatives.

In saying that, the NRL/ARLC seem to be paying attention finally.

What development has been done in Samoa and Tonga? Serious question btw, is rugby league growing on those islands? 

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

no mate, you have me right. Tonga and Samoa for the best part have been fortuitous developments and not the result of targeted initiatives.

In saying that, the NRL/ARLC seem to be paying attention finally.

And I think this is the problem really. That the 'plan' really was to capitalise on something that we have rather stumbled across. We won't just stumble across that in Europe. 

It's a bit of a perfect storm that has led to some real genuine quality players turning out for Tonga and Samoa in particular, and then the crowds responding hugely - the number, the colour, the noise brought by the Tonga fans in that 2017 World Cup was a turning point here. That's a unique situation, and we should absolutely do everything we can now to cultivate and capitalise on that, but I don't think this is a repeatable plan for anyone else. 

It's disappointing that basically what Grant is saying is that we just don't have a plan. Not even any mention of investment in key regions, etc. just "the RFL should do our job" - not even a mention of the European governing body.

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

And I think this is the problem really. That the 'plan' really was to capitalise on something that we have rather stumbled across. We won't just stumble across that in Europe. 

It's a bit of a perfect storm that has led to some real genuine quality players turning out for Tonga and Samoa in particular, and then the crowds responding hugely - the number, the colour, the noise brought by the Tonga fans in that 2017 World Cup was a turning point here. That's a unique situation, and we should absolutely do everything we can now to cultivate and capitalise on that, but I don't think this is a repeatable plan for anyone else. 

It's disappointing that basically what Grant is saying is that we just don't have a plan. Not even any mention of investment in key regions, etc. just "the RFL should do our job" - not even a mention of the European governing body.

While I welcome the exciting addition of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji to the top table of internationals, which has lived things up enormously, people on this forum seem to be suggesting that the NRL are developing the game in those countries. I can’t find any evidence of this, I can’t even find anything about a Samoan domestic league.  Having teams of mainly Aus/NZ born players turn out, while providing entertaining rugby, isn’t developing RL anywhere. 

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

While I welcome the exciting addition of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji to the top table of internationals, which has lived things up enormously, people on this forum seem to be suggesting that the NRL are developing the game in those countries. I can’t find any evidence of this, I can’t even find anything about a Samoan domestic league.  Having teams of mainly Aus/NZ born players turn out, while providing entertaining rugby, isn’t developing RL anywhere. 

Some interesting (yet random) snippets here:

About us | Community

Heart and Heritage: Tonga’s Rugby League Legacy at Risk Amid IRL’s Global Agenda - Tonga Independent News

NRL clubs eye Tongan talent as schools tour inspires participation explosion | NRL.com

Empowering Futures | Inventus Tonga | Rugby League Development Opportunities.